Riot, this is how you fix jungle

PapaGreg21·Dec 1, 2018·48 votes·15,358 views

Buff jungle camp experience so that ganking is a risk that can set the jungler back if they fail. This will make ganks happen less often and will bring diversity to the role with farming and ganking junglers alike being picked. The more you nerf jungle exp and gold, the more oppressive junglers will be to lane and the more camille/graves/lee sin games we are going to see next season. If I am a jungler and camps are garbage, guess what I am going to spend 90 percent of my time doing?

Revert the scuttle changes. This was a failed experiment that forced fights early and ruined jungle diversity. It also set one jungler far back behind the other and negatively affected lanes that needed to help with these encounters.

Increase early vision time with wards so that laners can be safer in the first few levels of the game.

I know none of these changes will happen because this game is now something made for LCS players that the rest of us get to play. Thats why I expect season 9 to be trash can.

48 Comments

RexxieeDec 1, 201810 votes

"how to fix the jungle, make them even stronger"

Yeah, no.

RekSai CoffeeCoDec 1, 20185 votes

{quoted}

"how to fix the jungle, make them even stronger"

Yeah, no.

You must like how the game is now and don't want to see damage toned down and roles balanced (Funneling is a more viable strategy the weaker jungle is).

GigglesODec 1, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2Wh4tZBu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T18:17:57.022+0000)

You must like how the game is now and don't want to see damage toned down and roles balanced (Funneling is a more viable strategy the weaker jungle is).

or... we could just reduce damage which makes clearing slower and ganks less of a 100% kill?

Blackii7Dec 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

or... we could just reduce damage which makes clearing slower and ganks less of a 100% kill?

Yes, which will also keep you always low and almost erase the chances of you wanting to gank, or helping your laners. Reduce damage = Lower Jg camps armor and health.

GigglesODec 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yes, which will also keep you always low and almost erase the chances of you wanting to gank, or helping your laners. Reduce damage = Lower Jg camps armor and health.

Depends on how much damage were to be lowered. If jungle is just a little harder the jungler would be just a little lower. I don’t think we would have to lower camps defense.

5050BSDec 1, 20187 votes

That is not what he said. He said make them take longer to clear.

You can do that by adding HP and lower their damage. You end the fight with the same HP but it took you 8s more to clear.

Summonah12369Dec 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

"how to fix the jungle, make them even stronger"

Yeah, no.

Fuck you mom.

KirbyCakeDec 1, 20189 votes

Jungle needs to be straight up nerfed, they received nothing but buffs for the past 3 seasons.

Camps need to have lower gold and exp and respawn time so they are on par with laners. Right now junglers can just afk farm full clear and still gank due to such long respawn times and outlevel everybody else with is absolutely ridiculous.

saltranDec 1, 201821 votes

they received nothing but buffs for the past 3 seasons.

Didn't knew we were talking about Supps.

SalronDec 2, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Didn't knew we were talking about Supps.

If we were then it wouldve been "past 6 seasons"

Support 4 LyfeDec 2, 20184 votes

In what fucking world did supports receive nothing but buffs? Janna is literally the most nerfed champion ALL GAME, Sona comes second, Ryze 3rd and Lulu 4th followed by Karma.

Please stop spreading bullshit, plus, Lee, Yi, Volibear & Udyr recieved nothing but STRAIGHT buffs the past season, check their fucking patch history and compare it to every other support.

Plus, they nerfed every shielding support's main shield and then nerfed their items and their starting support items. let's not forget that they also nerfed support's main runes as well.

PapaGreg21Dec 2, 20189 votes

You sound like a good candidate for balance team. Good luck nerfing the jungle camps and seeing how badly junglers start camping each and every lane 24/7. Good way to drive the game into the ground.

AegisAingealDec 2, 20186 votes

Game already in the ground.

PapaGreg21Dec 4, 20181 votes

Touche

BestPudgeNADec 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Jungle needs to be straight up nerfed, they received nothing but buffs for the past 3 seasons.

Camps need to have lower gold and exp and respawn time so they are on par with laners. Right now junglers can just afk farm full clear and still gank due to such long respawn times and outlevel everybody else with is absolutely ridiculous.

8.10 JG exp nerfs 8.23 JG exp nerfs 8.14 Funneling nerf that cost junglers 200g a game as collateral damage 8. something Runic Echo MS nerf although it was buffed a few patches later to compensate 8. Something early in the season Junglers can't buy support gold items while top and bot were still abusing them 8.4 Cinderhulk Nerfs 8. something Dragon/baron pit blast cone nerfs to reduce ganking paths 8. something removal of green smite Like 90% of the individual champ changes for JG were nerfs 10% were buffs

ProzzakDec 2, 20186 votes

What buffs has jungle received over the past three seasons? Jungle hasn't at least directly imo. I have mained jungle for awhile now so I will say that jungle has too much presence. However, this is not because of jungle itself. It is a direct result of the damage creep in the game. Before you would need someone to be low or just massively disadvantaged for a gank to result in a kill most of the time. Now, because of the tons of damage in the game you really just need a slight edge or way to get into the lane and boom. Dead laner.

Ton down the damage in the game which almost everyone wants and jungle will inherently take a hard hit because those ganks will no longer almost always be successful ganks.

CatastrophicDec 1, 20186 votes

I don't think you got it there chief. If you buff jungle XP then the jungler that farms all day is really strong, and the one that ganks is also really strong, because they can clear their entire jungle and have plenty of time to gank.

I think an ideal jungle should be like this:

Farming & successfuly ganking > Farming Only > Farming & unsuccessfully ganking > Ganking Only > unsuccessfully ganking only

Raising the camp timers + maybe doing something with scuttle will fix that I believe.

Season 6 had the jungle just right imo.

Spicy RiceDec 1, 20189 votes

What you need is lower exp and lower camp timers, so that there is less down time between clearing your jungle and ganking.

CatastrophicDec 2, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2Wh4tZBu,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-12-01T21:10:01.628+0000)

What you need is lower exp and lower camp timers, so that there is less down time between clearing your jungle and ganking.

Yes, exactly.

mack9112Dec 2, 20181 votes

As a jungler i agree

Zero Skill TankDec 2, 20182 votes

What you need to do is to remove tooth and nail passives, so that laners can yet again punish enemy jungler for spending excessive time on ganking.

Light BurnerDec 2, 20184 votes

You actually have no clue what you're saying. You basically just said "increase our camps gold and exp so we can farm less and still gank as much" or better yet give us the option to give oppressive ganks or hard farm how does this change anything???

PapaGreg21Dec 4, 20181 votes

I never said buff camp rewards so that junglers can farm less. Why on earth would they farm less if the jungle was giving out better rewards? If anything they would start farming it more often.

Light BurnerJan 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I never said buff camp rewards so that junglers can farm less. Why on earth would they farm less if the jungle was giving out better rewards? If anything they would start farming it more often.

this is pretty late i just seen it but i did say "better yet give us the option give oppressive ganks or hard farm" oppressive ganks coming from the increase of gold you're recieving from the camps or hard farm by counter jungling farm when enemy jungler decides to gank both ways jungler becomes oppressive.

AstroFerrari Dec 1, 20183 votes

I agree with this completely. How often and easily meta jglers get ganks off makes laning phase even more nonexistent

JimTheSnailDec 2, 20181 votes

I mean when that Jax/Xin/or any other bruiser jungler just hits 3 instead of 2 to gank you when you are 1 or 2 Yes much more balanced than if they are level 2. The way to fix that instead of increasing the experience camps give you is reduce the spawn times. They re-spawn faster rewarding players (I wont say champs bc tbh most champs do not need to afk farm unless you need 6 like Eve) who AFK farm and it doesn't set players back who gank more since they will soak exp and get gold from ganking + there JG. In reality in the end you will be 1-2 levels down from someone who AFK farms but have way more gold. If you bump up the EXP the amount of JG gives you it does not really reward the AFK farmers to much if the times stay the same bc you just gank on rotation and win EZ like XIN JAX OR ANY OTHER BRUISER. There needs to be trade off. If you gank you don't gain as much EXP but gain more gold. If you AFK farm you get more exp but not as much gold since the odds are JG will get a kill which = like 3 camps.

hewhodoesnotcareDec 2, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Buff jungle camp experience so that ganking is a risk that can set the jungler back if they fail. This will make ganks happen less often and will bring diversity to the role with farming and ganking junglers alike being picked. The more you nerf jungle exp and gold, the more oppressive junglers will be to lane and the more camille/graves/lee sin games we are going to see next season. If I am a jungler and camps are garbage, guess what I am going to spend 90 percent of my time doing?

Revert the scuttle changes. This was a failed experiment that forced fights early and ruined jungle diversity. It also set one jungler far back behind the other and negatively affected lanes that needed to help with these encounters.

Increase early vision time with wards so that laners can be safer in the first few levels of the game.

I know none of these changes will happen because this game is now something made for LCS players that the rest of us get to play. Thats why I expect season 9 to be trash can.

Riot buffed jungle in season 4 or 5 because only a select few can gank at lvl 2.............

Then riot nerf jungle because junglers were having too much impact on the game.

Then riot nerf jungle because junglers were no longer having an impact on the game and just farming....................so we are literally back to like s4 or 3. where only a few can gank at lvl 2 and everyone else just farms.

Just a summary of what they stated whenever they nerf and buff the jungle as i started jungling in s4

HollowMimicDec 2, 20183 votes

Last statement was the best!

How to fix that?

Give LCS players their own server. More work + more costs \ better game + happier players

boricCentaur1Dec 1, 20182 votes

My only problem is with the first part I say increase xp a small bit but make the camps slower to take.

5050BSDec 1, 20182 votes

We also need more vision in the jungle. We dont want afk farming junglers and we dont want 90% lane camping junglers and we dont want 100% counter junglers making your team a 4v5.

This is why we need more vision in OUR jungle. Add back the Wolf Spirit.

Shere KhänDec 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Buff jungle camp experience so that ganking is a risk that can set the jungler back if they fail. This will make ganks happen less often and will bring diversity to the role with farming and ganking junglers alike being picked. The more you nerf jungle exp and gold, the more oppressive junglers will be to lane and the more camille/graves/lee sin games we are going to see next season. If I am a jungler and camps are garbage, guess what I am going to spend 90 percent of my time doing?

Revert the scuttle changes. This was a failed experiment that forced fights early and ruined jungle diversity. It also set one jungler far back behind the other and negatively affected lanes that needed to help with these encounters.

Increase early vision time with wards so that laners can be safer in the first few levels of the game.

I know none of these changes will happen because this game is now something made for LCS players that the rest of us get to play. Thats why I expect season 9 to be trash can.

You must be in low elo cause you clearly have no ideal how the game works. Scuttle changes is a vision reward for the one who get to take down the scuttle. Your team get visions to control objectives. And to control/prevent the enemy jg from ganking. And buff exp in jg camp is a joke cause that will only works well in high elo and pro plays, low elo players doesn't even know what counter jg is. Early vision timer is not a good ideal since you have already have that option to pick in one of your rune pages.

ThoriahnDec 2, 20182 votes

He's on the right track...

No, how you fix jungle is lower camp XP and add a camp or two (like Skuttle) but that only spawn early game, provide some side benefit, and Preferably that wander each side of the jungle.

This does several things, creates additional incentive to stay in early jungle longer, adds randomizdd points of contention for jungler to jungler interaction, and allows the reduction of XP/hp on current camps while keeping the total XP needed to get to 2-3-4 roughly the same.

HyperTechnoDec 2, 20182 votes

I like the post. Just the title, it is a little too ambitious. Because you really, do not know if it will fix it, the suggestion could end up making everything worse.

Also, I do not agree that it would fix it.

But, I liked what you had to say because it did not sound like a rant. Thank you. Still, do not call something a failure, because not everyone in the world playing League would agree with that statement.

GL HF

[vlad-salute]

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐDec 3, 20182 votes

Revert the dumb scuttle crab change.
Remove red smite (MAYBE) ? ? ?
Remove the stupid plants. All of them

Jungle main

RekSai CoffeeCoDec 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Revert the dumb scuttle crab change.

Remove red smite (MAYBE) ? ? ?

Remove the stupid plants. All of them

Jungle main

Scuttle definitely needs to be reverted.

Speedy 19Dec 2, 20181 votes

Problem with buffing the exp rates in the jungle is if you do an early gank and the enemy jungler does not counter jungle you to punish you now we are back to where we started but now the camps give you more exp to catch up/ level up even faster. Another issue with this is if you just power farm your camps gank and repeat you will be over leveled really quickly and again we will be back in the place we started with. If you really want "fix" the jungle i would say look in the direction of the really early seasons of the game where camps did not give that much exp and gold but they spawned quicker. Or you can nerf the items and stats of junglers but i think that this method of "fixing" the jungle is a terrible idea

xDogMeatxDec 2, 20181 votes

why not give junglers power ups which rewards "same side" jungles a incentive to still in jungle at least a little to slow their aggression towards laners so they dont oppressively gank a "certain" lane. if a gromp is on your side of jg if you kill it you get a gromp mini shield or something (you get the idea).

ŚhunpoDec 2, 20181 votes

"Buff jungle camp experience so that ganking is a risk that can set the jungler back if they fail."

This just rewards MORE ganks due to junglers having a better EXP curve. I don't think you quite understand how to make jungle healthier as a role. If anything the role needs nerfs since it's so impactful.

What you CAN do is make camps harder to clear so then junglers have to actually work around their HP and timings again.

BigFBearDec 2, 20181 votes

If they make ganking "high risk low reward" no one would be ganking anymore. Or let's say "high risk same reward". If you make better or same progress with farming jungle camps, why should you ever risk a death at ganking?

I think it's intended like it is now. Thy want an intense game experience with high rate of fights and action. They don't want a game where everyone is just farming for the first 15 Minutes.

RekSai CoffeeCoDec 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think it's intended like it is now. Thy want an intense game experience with high rate of fights and action. They don't want a game where everyone is just farming for the first 15 Minutes.

This meta (scuttle crab is main culprit) lacks a lot of diversity in jungle feel free to browse the low playrate junglers and ask yourself how they are supposed to compete in this meta. We are lucky to see even 9 of the 40+ possible junglers when before we could see a greater diversity.

QuantumVayneDec 2, 20181 votes

If you think the arguably strongest role (or possibly 2nd only to mid) right now needs a buff, you're completely insane. I've had allied junglers outlevel me as a mid-laner by 3 levels when I'm 10. Sorry, but fixing jungle but making it stronger? You're actually funny. You must be joking. It screws all of us top, mid, and botlaners enough. Shen, Zed, and Kalista are already crap enough to play, give me a break.

Haze97Dec 2, 20181 votes

You must be terrible at last hitting. I play both, midlane and jungle, and jungling doesn't give you nearly as much exp at later levels.

You need to either learn to last hit better, or notice whether your jungler has been getting too many successful ganks.

RekSai CoffeeCoDec 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If you think the arguably strongest role (or possibly 2nd only to mid) right now needs a buff, youre completely insane. I've had allied junglers outlevel me as a mid-laner by 3 levels.

Are you in iron division? Watch some replays and you will see junglers (high k/d/a and even challengers) 1-3 levels under mid and top from around 4-12 min mark (used to only be from 3-10 mark).

KmSneakyDec 2, 20181 votes

I definetly would understand your statement, but if the jungle exp/gold was buffed, I would want the sustain from flowers/ jungle items/red buff to be nerfed, characters with a good clear in a more rewarding jungle would just get out of hand, we already see junglers like Khazix Rengar MasterYi XinZhao Graves Hecarim come into lanes and 1v1. If jungle camps get buffs without any form of compensation so that junglers actually have to manage their HP/mana before ganking, I'm against it. Red buff needs to heal at least 50% less HP since it already has a slow and true damage, item 1039 passive mana regen needs tuning somehow, and the ridiculous 1st scuttlecrab meta needs to change too...

chide da junglerDec 2, 20181 votes

I was facepalming right until you mentioned LCS and that's when I knew you actually understood the situation.

ThefrostyvikingDec 2, 20181 votes

OP you are completely off the mark ._.

If you buff camp EXP then junglers will hit a higher lvl faster for less effort meaning ult reliant ones will become OP very, very fast.

Camilie, noc, rengar and some others like kha6 will become insanely oppressive towards laners.

I do agree on the scuttler though.

What i think should be done instead is to lower camp clear rewards and the spawn timers, this way junglers have to spend more effort on clearing rather than ganking to ensure they stay good on EXP.

More farming =less ganks.

Caustic WizardDec 2, 20181 votes

I feel like these changes would ultimently bring too much power to champs that just power farm Hecarim Shyvana . while i do like the idea of less opressive champs in the jungle, im not sure if this is the way to go about it.

On another point Scuttle crab is the worst change ive ever seen, i feel like its super biased to champs with cc to knock the armour off, and enough damage to kill it quick after.

Finally, with all the rune changes, I feel like they should fix that system first before messing with the jg. Think about preadator clear. Its insane on anyone who can run it Skarner , and encurages other oppressive jgs to counter it LeeSin Shaco