Why are you forcing new champions into a lane?

Vore Monster··12 votes·1,563 views

I don't know how else to word the title, but I feel like Riot is trying to force new champions (Or remade champions) into lanes to change the meta. While it's not a bad thing to try and change something; forcing change isn't the way to go about.

First we got Morde's rework. and it originally attempted to force Morde into a duo-bot lane with his W only capable of use on an ally or ghost. Recently changed, Morde still has a passive on one of his abilities that gives him full experience for killing minions, attempting to replace the common ADC instead of giving the full exp to him regardless of his position on the team.

Now we have Kindred, who's sole passive is gutted when they go into a lane. They do have the ability to roam, but it's denying her experience, giving the enemy laner tower damage and free farm, and the ally jungler their camps just to stack their passive when a camp becomes marked.

And, yes, she can choose which enemy champion to mark, but she needs to obtain those kills to stack, which can be hard or near impossible in a fair lane fight without an ally ganking or the enemy making a mistake. And it also isn't as fast or effective in numbers when she goes into the jungle.

Anyone else think this is what Riot has been trying to do, and the attempt to force a role needs to stop, and instead try to make a champion unique in any given role or situation?

19 Comments

Deep Terror Nami7 votes

They aren't trying to force the meta to change, they are trying to expand the options so the game doesn't get stale and die. Adding one ranged jungler won't all of a sudden turn other ADC's into junglers or anything. They also expect people will try it out in other roles as well, and may make it work. They are not opposed to that.

Mister Mackey5 votes

Bard and Kindred Roaming Bot lane ftw??

Big Lincoln3 votes

Because if they didn't FORCE you to take them somewhere new, you never would

luckmallory2 votes

Riot specifically said this is a jungler. Therefore her kit is meant for jungling. If you take them elsewhere you have to suffer. They shouldn't change the characters kit to go somewhere where the character wasn't meant to go.

Rek'sai has a completely worthless ult if you take him top lane as he can't set up tunnels all over the map. It's basically just to get to lane faster. He was meant to be a jungler.

Also, it is kinda hard to change the entire meta without forcing it. ADC's have been strong for far too long and im glad they are putting bruisers bot

Argon Falcon2 votes

Well if you remember, VI was meant to be a top laner. Riot gives you how they think a champ would work the best, but the community continually finds better places for a lot of champs

luckmallory1 votes

I disagree, almost all of the new champs in the last year or so are best where Riot said they would be

Azir- Mid

Braum- support

Gnar- Top

Kalista- ADC

Rek'sai- Jungle

Vel coz- Mid

Bard- Support

Ekko- Mid (although i will give you that for a short while he could jungle well)

Tahm- Support

Durzaka5 votes

Rek'sai WAS a very solid top lane before they gutted all of her damage.

Vel'koz is a a very solid support still.

Ekko jungle is still very much a thing.

Tahm is an excellent top laner and can jungle pretty damn well. I would argue his support is his weakest role, but that isnt the discussion.

luckmallory1 votes

The argument wasnt where else they COULD play or even if they were good at it. It was where they are BEST at and that is almost always where Riot says they are and where they revolve their kits around.

Rek'sai is hands down a much better jungler than top laner since her release

Vel' coz is clearly better for mid

Ekko is a mixed bag and i will give you it is pretty even in jungle and mid

In Plat+ Tahm is played at support in 64 percent of his games and his top lane win percentage in Plat+ is only 48 percent while support is 52.6 percent.

Durzaka1 votes

This isnt a question of where they are better at. There will always be a position a champion is better at.

This is a question of where they CAN be played successfully. And when a champion is pigeonhold from design into a single position, that is bad design.

Can Azir go top? Sure, you wouldnt want to probably, due to the people he would fight, but he can fucking do it.

Can Braum go top or mid? Yes, because his leap still works on minions. If it only worked on champions, then he would be pigeonhold to bottom lane.

And so it.

Also, 48% vs. 52% is well within the reasonable margin when discussing win rates.

luckmallory1 votes

lol the champion hasn't even been released yet and people are bitching.

The new champ has absolutely nothing that can't be used in lane. His passive can be used as an ADC but it will just be less effective. He can still get kills and assists on his lane opponents. This is like saying omg nunu gets buffs from consuming the jungle camps so he is pigeon holed into going jungle.

No, he is just better there. Same with the new champ. Passive still works, just less effectively and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that for a champ meant to JUNGLE

Durzaka1 votes

{quoted}

lol the champion hasn't even been released yet and people are bitching.

The new champ has absolutely nothing that can't be used in lane. His passive can be used as an ADC but it will just be less effective. He can still get kills and assists on his lane opponents. This is like saying omg nunu gets buffs from consuming the jungle camps so he is pigeon holed into going jungle.

No, he is just better there. Same with the new champ. Passive still works, just less effectively and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that for a champ meant to JUNGLE

You can only mark a champion every 4 minutes. Limiting yourself to 2 bot lanes is basically cutting the passives effectiveness in half. And that is after you already cut its effectiveness in half from not being able to get all of the jungle camps for the first 6 stacks.

luckmallory1 votes

but you CAN still use it. Riot made it effective in the jungle. Not for lane. That isn't pigeon holing. That is Riot saying if you want to take this champion to a role outside of where he is best you have to suffer a little as he isn't meant to go there.

Can you solo lane Morde? yeah. Is it better than Duo bot? no

Can you top nunu? Yeah. Is it better than jungle? no

They have things in their kit that make them great at a certain position.

Your argument is that because a champion is labeled as a jungler Marksman that it is bullshit he isnt good as a bruiser/Tank/Support/Mid laner as well. It's a horrible argument. Can Draven mid lane? yeah sure he CAN. Is it as effective as ADC. No.

CAN the new champ top lane. Sure Is it as effective. No

Dr Poro2 votes

Where do you get that info? According to champion.gg Tahm has 47% winrate in both top and support and 49% in jungle. But he is played more often as support (1/2) than as jungle (1/4), so I guess he's about even in both roles, I still prefer him in the jungle, though.

Ekko is way better in the jungle. He has 5% higher winrate in jungle compared to mid or top (both at 46%) and he's played in the jungle most of the time.

Dr Poro1 votes

Copied from Vi's announcement:

There's nothing more satisfying than the sounds of your enemies succumbing to an extreme beat-down. Not to Vi, anyway, the newest champion to join the League. Punching, excessive force, and armor-busting brutality are what she’s all about.

At home in top lane or the jungle, Vi's playstyle revolves around pummeling opponents and tearing into and shattering their armor. Vi's signature punch is Vault Breaker. When you first activate the ability, Vault Breaker begins charging a powerful punch. Activating Vault Breaker a second time causes you to dash forward, dealing damage to units and knocking back enemy champions. Early game, Vi excels at bullying opponents while shoving the lane with Vault Breaker and the AoE damage from Excessive Force. Skillful use of Excessive Force allows you to quickly clear your lane while harassing opponents trying to get in close to last hit minions.

When team fights erupt, Vi's ultimate allows you to charge through your opponents' front-line and crush their carries. Assault and Battery locks on to an enemy champion. You then chase them down, uppercutting them into the air. Enemies unfortunate enough to be in the way are knocked aside. High damage, armor debuffs, and knockbacks make you a disruptive force. Since Vi's attacks and activated abilities apply stacks of Denting Blows, you can increase your damage significantly against armored opponents by just doing what you do best: punching. To top it all off, Vi's Blast Shield helps her survive not only big damage bursts, but also prolonged team fights.

Are you ready to slip on your gauntlets and show off your pummeling prowess? Once your opponents get a glimpse of your heavy weaponry, it's punch or be punched.

Top lane OR jungle. Not just top. Granted that they talk more about her laning and less about her jungling.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

Riot specifically said this is a jungler. Therefore her kit is meant for jungling. If you take them elsewhere you have to suffer. They shouldn't change the characters kit to go somewhere where the character wasn't meant to go.

Rek'sai has a completely worthless ult if you take him top lane as he can't set up tunnels all over the map. It's basically just to get to lane faster. He was meant to be a jungler.

Also, it is kinda hard to change the entire meta without forcing it. ADC's have been strong for far too long and im glad they are putting bruisers bot

Rek'Sai is female, remember? Also, you contradicted yourself. You said that Rek'Sai's ult was completely worthless but then stated a use for it.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Kindred isn't being forced into the jungle. They are being created to have the capability to jungle. That's something that has never been done on a Marksman before, at least not to the degree that Kindred is being created to do.

Sightless661 votes

instead try to make a champion unique in any given role or situation?

That's a nice ideal, but in practice, that just makes champions fit into the roles that already exist. They're trying to make champions that actually mess with the current lane setups instead of just fitting into them, and if you don't make some kind of effort to actually get champions to do that, people will just play them in the standard positions all the time. So, no, I don't think they need to stop trying this stuff. Having an ADC that is mainly designed for jungling isn't a problem. Having a bruiser that goes bot lane isn't a problem either. The only thing regrettable about the Morde rework was that it took a champion who already had a role and gave him a new one.

If Morde didn't have the exp passive or the W that worked off of allies, he wouldn't be played as duo laner because he'd be straight up better as a solo laner. If Kindred's passive was equally accessible in lane, she'd only be a laner because she'd be better at it. Neither would give players options to play champions that defy the traditional lane setups.

forcing change isn't the way to go about.

It's not forcing change. It's giving champions that provide you with new options, and letting people decide if they want to change. That option wouldn't exist if the champions weren't designed around having the potential for certain roles.

They do have the ability to roam, but it's denying her experience, giving the enemy laner tower damage and free farm, and the ally jungler their camps just to stack their passive when a camp becomes marked.

Just to clear up any potential misconceptions: Kindred's marks only apply to scuttle crabs or enemy jungle camps, never her ally's jungle camps. She could never deny an ally jungler their camps to get a mark. If you knew that already and I misread you, my bad.

Subject 51 votes

Riot prefers to shove Meta down the throats of everybody. It is like, their thing.

Only Play Darius1 votes

You could say the same for Skarner. Of course he was awful in lane to begin with, but the rework essentially forces him to go into the jungle. Some people actively want to try Skarner in a lane, and sometimes if you have an AFK and need to cover toplane, then your passive just gives the enemy jungler free gold while he's taking your camps.

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