Can we get some context from RIOT about the Evelynn nerf?

Support Evelynn·Sep 8, 2015·48 votes·20,729 views

Eve hasn't been even doing well in competitive, this nerf seems completely out of the blue.

124 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201526 votes

We've been looking at a number of regular pro play picks this week, as we approach the lock date for the World's patch in a few days. Eve's one of the champions we've been considering changes to, given her relatively high pick/ban rate in pro play (win rate is sometimes a less reliable stat in pro play given the small sample sizes). Consensus internally's been trending away from changes to her in 5.18 (we believe she's strong, but not excessively so), we've been looking at an E nerf as a way to pull power though if we do conclude it's necessary.

Dextix LTSep 9, 201513 votes

FIrst things first. Maybe you want to fix the shit you fcked up in this patch? AKA Every Juggernaut + Vayne.

After you fix those then look at other champs like eve, which are quite balanced.

TotalJerkSep 9, 20157 votes

There's another thread for that. Your comment is barely on topic by virtue of mentioning eve.
They are working on the Juggernauts, there's been countless buffs/nerfs/retunings going through the PBE almost daily and they've been addressing feedback for weeks.
Stop flaming.

Dextix LTSep 9, 20151 votes

I will stop "flaming" when the balance team starts "working". Well, i dont see them working, do i?

TotalJerkSep 9, 20153 votes

I don't understand how you think putting flaming in quotes diminishes the fact that it was exactly what you were doing. Also doesn't the fact that the PBE even got Eve nerfs in the first place mean they ARE working? Or is it just not work when they aren't working on the things YOU want them to.

KoboldSep 9, 201518 votes

If I understand what you are saying you are nerfing her in precaution for the sake of keeping her out of worlds.

Just wondering why she is not a extremely high priority rework at this point then, as that would make it more understandable as she is kept out of world to keep attention away from her for a rework that will drastically change her play style and you wish to avoid creating more mains of the champion who is high on the rework priority list.

And if she is on a rework list will she be in a group rework like the juggernaughts but featuring stealth champions? (Shaco, Eve, and possibly Kha, Rengar, Akali and Teemo?) As what has been seen from riot is a dislike of the present stealth mechanics in the game.

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201520 votes

Oh, no, we'd be very happy seeing some Eve at Worlds. Concern being discussed was that she might be too strong in top level play.

Cosmic WarperSep 9, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Oh, no, we'd be very happy seeing some Eve at Worlds. Concern being discussed was that she might be too strong in top level play.

Those two sentences kinda contradict one another. You'd love to see her at worlds, but you're nerfing her out of pro play because she might become strong? She wont be used in worlds at this rate. Clearlove will probably be the only jungler to make good use of her.

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201526 votes

We're currently discussing whether or not we believe Eve is too strong in high level play. If we think she's too strong, we'll nerf her, with the E change currently in testing as a likely way we'd do that. If we conclude she's not too strong we'll leave her as is.

Krys StarSep 9, 20155 votes

I enjoy seeing what you have to say a lot of times, Meddler, and it always delights me when you speak to us since your fellow Rioters are too shy to. But lately, the past week, what you have to say has been very disappointing. You either contradict yourself, or agree to absurd things for the sake of agreeing ( ie Anivia's E being reduced by Randuin's Omen ).

TotalJerkSep 9, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frozen Beauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2OhwoYss,comment-id=000c00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-09T07:59:36.724+0000)

But lately, the past week, what you have to say has been very disappointing.

That sounds like you just don't agree with him.

Krys StarSep 9, 20152 votes

Did I imply I just agree with him?

Champion SkinSep 9, 20156 votes

Anivia's E being reduced by Randuin's Omen sounds really weird... Oh yeah lots of the abilities that can deal double damage counts as crits... or something like that Though still that still sounds like a weird and unintended interaction... (it basically makes Anivia E deal 180% damage instead of 200% damage which it usually would do if used with Q/R)

TyroneWatermelonSep 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

We're currently discussing whether or not we believe Eve is too strong in high level play. If we think she's too strong, we'll nerf her, with the E change currently in testing as a likely way we'd do that. If we conclude she's not too strong we'll leave her as is.

MEDDLER PLEASE WHERE IS THE FINAL TIME FOR VAYNE?

SpecterVonBarenSep 9, 20154 votes

Don't you mean, the final hour?

A Miss FortuneSep 9, 20153 votes

Interesting to say that you're looking at a champion's balance directly from pro play.

Kuroi86Sep 9, 20153 votes

This is the patch that Worlds will be played on. If any patch should be balanced around pro play, it's this one. Though after this I think it would be wise to consider changes based closer around plat/diamond.

Xela SyabSep 9, 20152 votes

Eve is probably at the best balance state she's been in years. You guys need to leave her alone and deal with bigger issues.

Phuc Dat BichSep 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're currently discussing whether or not we believe Eve is too strong in high level play. If we think she's too strong, we'll nerf her, with the E change currently in testing as a likely way we'd do that. If we conclude she's not too strong we'll leave her as is.

She is not that strong....ok? And if you gut 30 damage from her E its not a way to make her "balance" its a way to send her to 20% win ratio with 0.001% pick rate..

EVE CANT HANDLE MORE NERFS if you nerf the E she is done !!!

But if you want to nerf her which you will do because worlds are close and we cant have evelynn and dont even try to lie to me we all know what is going on when worlds are near i am here since S1 dont even try

How about Buff some of her base stats? you want to remove some of her power ? ok but AT LEAST make her a bit more tanky

A better base hp at lvl 1 and at lvl 18 Better Base AD at lvl 1 and at lvl 18 Better armor scaling or some better base Armor so when you GUT her E evelynn to be able to jungle without being back again and again after killing one jungle monster

Or you want to make her the one that goes in first? as you people say back in the days when you change the Max hp ulti to current hp then ok REDUCE THE CD on her ULTI almost 3 minutes Ulti for a non global ulti is kinda pathetic....

So if you want to nerf evelynn BUFF SOME OF HER BASE STATS! And remember you people have already nerf 20% of her Q damage

SO YOU NEED TO realize that she cant handle more nerfs! without some buffs on her base stats

AudiomancySep 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're currently discussing whether or not we believe Eve is too strong in high level play. If we think she's too strong, we'll nerf her, with the E change currently in testing as a likely way we'd do that. If we conclude she's not too strong we'll leave her as is.

But...she's kinda bad. Why would you have any reason to nerf her?

She's literally an AP Assassin who is so bad at being an AP Assassin that she has to build AD Tank or become absolute garbage.

TotalJerkSep 9, 20154 votes

That doesn't contradict at all. What kind of logical leap is that? Also you're putting "out of pro play" in his mouth when it's blatantly clear he didn't say that.

Celeste BenalSep 9, 20151 votes

Uh, yes he did. What is there above top level play that is not pro? Nothing. Hence, top-level = pro-level.

Kaza OokamiSep 9, 20152 votes

he clearly said that she is to strong in pro play, meaning she is erring on the edge of a 100% pick/ban rate, they want to make her a choice pick like she should be, not a priority due to having to much power. A small nerf wouldn't drop her out of pro play, only lower her pick priority.

Garlyle WildsSep 9, 201513 votes

It's not contradictory. There is a difference between "strong enough for pro play" and "too strong in pro play". The concern isn't that Eve is good enough to make appearances at worlds - the concern is that Eve will be a decider at Worlds; the type of champ that is 100% Pick/Ban.

I don't really think that's a risk Eve runs, but I'm also not up at the skill level to have that assessment. Most imporantly, I also don't have a good grasp of what Eve with the new items does, and I suspect that's why they're concerned; environmental changes can do a lot to a champ.

umbraˉSep 8, 201516 votes

They oppress assassin mains.

Nameless VoiceSep 8, 20156 votes

Unless they play AD assassins. They love those.

WarlockLawSep 9, 20156 votes

Actually they hate those too...unless you're Zed

Nameless VoiceSep 9, 20152 votes

That depends how specific you are with the term.

I'd consider Zed and Yasuo to be AD assassins, plus Vayne (marksman/assassin) and Riven (fighter/assassin). All of those are very popular champions right now who are hated because of their particular skillset.

WarlockLawSep 9, 20153 votes

Yasuo has been borderline gutted since release so they don't like him.

Riven is trash from behind and can be countered pretty hard in lane. She snowballs pretty hard she, but she has to in order to be worth the pick.

Vayne has a shorter range than average, can't interact outside her auto attack range, and has the worst laning phase of any adc. Poke her out of lane and/or stun lock her during fights. Her dueling is strong sure, but she can't fight against 2 threats at once. Also most adcs can 1v1 her if they buy a banshee's as her dps vs squishy targets is lower than average

Troll for TrumpSep 9, 20155 votes

Ooookkk then. You are pointing out the least common worst case scenarios

Yas is itemreliant, and with his items destroys anyone.

Riven is broken when ahead. When she gets a single kill in the first 8 minutes, top is lost. A lot of champs can snwoball but aren't as strong, aren't manaless, don't have that much mobility or damage. She is really strong at levels 1,2,3,6 for early and even better later

WarlockLawSep 9, 20154 votes

Meanwhile you are pointing out their best case scenarios. I've beaten many a Rivens after they got first blood without jungler help. She is only strong early if you build damage vs her or play somebody with low bases when you can't outplay her. I don't like Riven's late game but I consider her balanced.

Also if Yasuo is item reliant then that means shut down Yasuo isn't a champion as he doesn't have items. Yasuo's laning phase is only good on mains as far as I can tell, so he should be fairly easy to shut down.

Meanwhile Zed has a super safe laning phase seeing as he can cs without being punished like other melee champs. He has really good base damage allowing him to all in early. He scales with items really well so he can farm until late game. And with his passive and ult he really only needs a botrk to function

Troll for TrumpSep 9, 20151 votes

Your description of zed sounds like vayne.(replace melee with lowrange bot lane champs). And vayne is Op admit it. If what you said about zed is your reasoning to what makes a champ Op vayne would be broken.Riven is strong in the right hands. Anyone below plat with riven can still mess up a lot. But if you look at plat+ riven games, basically a riven with a single kill snowballs to victory.

WarlockLawSep 10, 20151 votes

Zed can farm with the best of mages, which is what I was saying and still scales super hard, how is that anything like Vayne? I'd like to see Vayne try and cs in lane vs Viktor

Troll for TrumpSep 10, 20151 votes

draven is a lane bully and is the counter to vayne. Or was. Draven used to be the hard counter to vayne due to his early game, but now vayne has a 53% win rate against him. Against a bully who had countered her for years.

Imagine something like Nasus countering Teemo or Kassadin countering ahri. Or ahri countering talon instead of visaversa before

WarlockLawSep 10, 20151 votes

Winrate aside, every time me and my friends play against Vayne she gets crushed and is a massive dead weight for the enemy team, so idk why ppl can't lane against her

Troll for TrumpSep 13, 20151 votes

Ban vayne or play vayne seriously play vayne she's super fun to play even though she's toxic. You should try vayne=anivia/trundle it's better than you'd think.

KoboldSep 9, 20153 votes

Not to be rude but where does this misconception of Vayne having low range come from?

in AA range she is beaten by 2 ADCs and scaling range ADCs other than that she has normal AA range. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Range#Chart

If its in terms of kit max range it is somewhat more understandable but then more people should be complaining about Annie and kayles range too.

l Main RenektonSep 9, 20151 votes

Assassins in general are oppressive though.

KatCraftSep 9, 20151 votes

It's not how good or bad she is, just that her kit and play style is unhealthy. Riot doesn't actually care about winrates unless they are obscene.

Support EvelynnSep 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's not how good or bad she is, just that her kit and play style is unhealthy. Riot doesn't actually care about winrates unless they are obscene.

Look mate if they didn't want her to be played ever they never would have buffed her early levels of Q or made her E proc on hits.

KatCraftSep 9, 20151 votes

I didn't say they don't want her played ever, but it's pretty apparent they don't want her to be a decent pick no? It's pretty clear why they are nerfing Eve, even if you don't agree with it.

Support EvelynnSep 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I didn't say they don't want her played ever, but it's pretty apparent they don't want her to be a decent pick no? It's pretty clear why they are nerfing Eve, even if you don't agree with it.

No it isn't clear, especially when you look at her HISTORIC NERFS. Eve has always been nerfed when she's too strong in a given meta, right now she isn't even powerful and her play at almost every level is underwhelming compared to other picks. These nerfs are almost random.

This is why I'm asking for SPECIFIC CONTEXT FROM A RIOT EMPLOYEE, not some speculation by a random player.

Dextix LTSep 9, 201523 votes

Kalista is unhealthy from her creation. I dont see her getting her damage cut in half, do i?

ZantumallSep 9, 20157 votes

She's been nerfed like three patches in a row. They literally changed the rules on how her auto-attacks work just to nerf her.

I hate Kalista too, but seriously, saying she hasn't been nerfed is just blind.

Van GrantsSep 9, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2OhwoYss,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2015-09-09T06:35:54.755+0000)

is unhealthy from her creation. I dont see her getting her damage cut in half, do i?

Well Kalista had her auto attack damage decreased permanently by 10%, while Eve is losing 20 base damage on one spell....calm the hell down.

Dextix LTSep 9, 20151 votes

Well i have to apologise, i read somewhere that it was 100 ddifference, or was it on another chammpion? Well i was wrong.