Oh hey look, Fizz was NERFED

Chønklord·May 20, 2017·7 votes·769 views

http://champion.gg/champion/Fizz/Middle

48% winrate in MID LANE

44% top lane.

Both top and mid fizz got gutted hard.

So shut the fuck up complaining about Fizz, us fizz players are in mourning.

45 Comments

SexyBabyJesusZMay 20, 20175 votes

fizz is still an aids champ no matter what

ChønklordMay 20, 20175 votes

If you're bronze and don't understand how to lane or team against fizz, then yea. that can be said for many champions.

ChønklordMay 20, 20172 votes

EDIT: Oh hey look at that I was right; you are Bronze 1.

SexyBabyJesusZMay 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2O1WFNaI,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-05-20T21:39:25.979+0000)

If you're bronze and don't understand how to lane or team against fizz, then yea. that can be said for many champions.

ur silver 3 stfu u arent any better.

fizz is among the most hated champs for a reason, dont be dumb.

JoxcabMay 20, 20173 votes

Because he's slippery and annoying. And infamous for tank builds because Riot keeps ruining his W which lets it happen.

Not because he's OP. lmao

ChønklordMay 20, 20172 votes

Honestly, I liked Tank Fizz.

You know what Riot should do? Re-classify fizz as a Bruiser, then he can go tanky and they can balance him around that, instead of a fucking squishy ap melee assassin.

JoxcabMay 20, 20174 votes

That'd work too.

But as long as he's balanced around being a squishy AP melee assassin, the tank builds are cancer tbh.

Just pick one of the two and balance him around that xd

ChønklordMay 20, 20171 votes

I miss my tanky fish :( :( :(

Top Lane main, it'll never be the same again.

ChønklordMay 20, 20172 votes

"SwainLaneWinGame" is my other account; oh lookie it's Gold.

I've been playing this game since late season 3 / early s4.

I have around 2k games this season alone.

I have every single champion, 20 rune pages, and I practice off-meta builds and champions very often.

Suffice it to say, I have a plethora of gameplay knowledge and experience that you can't even begin to scratch.

So do me a favor, and when the big boys talk, sit down and listen. You might learn a thing or two.

DracocrashMay 20, 20174 votes

why bother?

There's gona be those people who go HURRDURR fizz has a 1% winrate??! how is this allowed! Riot make his winrate 0% becuz im too lazy to learn how to play against him lelelelele xd

RewtMay 20, 20172 votes

44% top lane is because people are still trying to play him tank. AP fizz actually got buffed

ChønklordMay 20, 20173 votes

stop spreading falsehoods;

AP Fizz was nerfed not buffed

Go read the zillion threads and posts that do the math, don't be a lazy scumbag.

RewtMay 20, 20171 votes

Base damage down. Scalings up. AP fizz builds Into Scalings. he lost like 100 damage on base stats. He got buffed. Just do some simple math

JoxcabMay 20, 20171 votes

Not until 375 AP he isn't. Which is an extremely high number for someone like him who builds a lot of utility AP items.

ChønklordMay 20, 20172 votes

Math: 100, You: 0.

Brutalitops01May 20, 20172 votes

Notice that, while the base damage on his W went down, the AP ratio went up. In other words, mid Fizz got buffed while tank Fizz top got nerfed. Why? Because people are still building him as a tank in the top lane and people are still doing well with it so long as they aren't absurdly garbage at the champion.

ChønklordMay 20, 20174 votes

stop spreading falsehoods;

AP Fizz was nerfed not buffed

Go read the zillion threads and posts that do the math, don't be a lazy scumbag.

Brutalitops01May 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2O1WFNaI,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-05-20T21:38:39.629+0000)

stop spreading falsehoods;

AP Fizz was nerfed not buffed

Go read the zillion threads and posts that do the math, don't be a lazy scumbag.

You claim there are a zillion threads and posts that do the math, yet I haven't seen 1 yet scrolling the boards (and I do a fair amount of scrolling).

JoxcabMay 20, 20172 votes

Not until 375 AP he isn't. Which is an extremely high number for someone like him who builds a lot of utility AP items.

DracocrashMay 20, 20173 votes

leme teach u some math

Maybe you didn't learn it in school.

fizz got a 75 base damage nerf and a +20% ap ratio buff.

You know what that means?

Untill he gets 375 ap its a nerf. Flat.out.Nerf. Only at 5 items on a regular fizz build do you reach that much AP.

Such buff! much wow!!

Brutalitops01May 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Wizfact EUW,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2O1WFNaI,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-05-20T21:41:22.843+0000)

leme teach u some math

Maybe you didn't learn it in school.

fizz got a 75 base damage nerf and a +20% ap ratio buff.

You know what that means?

Untill he gets 375 ap its a nerf. Flat.out.Nerf. Only at 5 items on a regular fizz build do you reach that much AP.

Such buff! much wow!!

K I know I'm not much of a Fizz player but would you not buy Rabadon's on him and be at like 400+ with 3 items?

PennsMay 20, 20173 votes

No because its not really optimal to get high ap items like Morello or Ludens/Rabadons on him. item 3152 item 3100 item 3157 are core items, thats ~250 ap with 4 items, not even 350 with 5 items if you get Void Staff (counting boots).

ChønklordMay 20, 20173 votes

by the time you can buy a rabadons as fizz, you might as well surrender @ 20, because the game is most likely over due to you being so fucking far behind and useless as an assassin.

That's the whole problem fizz players have always had when Riot nerfs the shit out of fizz (they've done it dozens of times in the past).... he's simply too squishy as a melee "ap assassin" versus practically every single god damn motherfucking mid laner and suffers early and never gets ahead of the enemy.

With the exception of Veigar, almost every other mid laner shits on fizz so hardcore; and now they get to shit on him even further.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 20, 20172 votes

Your champ just isn't that healthy...

I was just talking about this with a friend. If he's good, it's because he can dodge all your stuff with is troll poll and kill you. If he's weak, it's because dodging all your stuff with troll poll doesn't matter, and you have enough damage to kill him afterwards.

I think he just needs a rework, honestly. It sucks that he's bad right now, but I don't know that I've ever seen him very balanced.

JoxcabMay 20, 20171 votes

Whenever he wasn't balanced, he was tuned appropriately.

Same for the Tank Fizz shit whenever Riot fucked up his W which let Tank Fizz come back.

He's pretty much always been balanced.

ChønklordMay 20, 20172 votes

I mean, you can say that about a multitude of champions;

The fact of the matter is fizz is an assassin.

He's made to blow up squishies when he's ahead.

I can't stand the ignorant, close-mindedness of so many players on the forums here that are simply annoyed and frustrated by fizz or other champions and don't even try to pose a logical, well-though argument about it; it's all just nerf nerf nerf! waaah!.

Jesus christ. Learn how to counter, or lane, vs those annoying champions like fizz.

Either that, or just have Riot delete the "assassin/mobile champion" class altogether. We can all have base movespeed of 300 and move like Karthus.

LauchmelderMay 20, 20172 votes

I'm fine if he can blow me up.

I'm not fine if he can avoid most of my damage because of the trollpole AND instakill me.

JoxcabMay 20, 20171 votes

Then don't waste everything while E is off cooldown?

Bait or force it out and then hit him.

He can't instantly kill you. His full combo on a squishy is quick, but it still takes around a little under 2s or potentially longer for the combo itself (starting from shark's knockup), and then around 2.5-3s for the beginning initiation (the ultimate shot, waiting for fish to be eaten, etc). The shark appears after 2s, the travel time of ultimate would be around 0.5-1s, and the combo itself afterwards is around 1.75-2.5 seconds. (Q, E, the autoattack, etc)

LauchmelderMay 21, 20172 votes

"He can't instantly kill you"

Yes he can. Lucky you I played too many games for the replay to be available, but saying that he can't instantly kill you is a blatant lie.

Mind you, I had a Null Magic Mantle, was ahead by 30cs @ 10 minutes and we both were 0/0/0.

JoxcabMay 21, 20171 votes

No, he literally can't.

The ultimate takes around 0.5-1 second to travel if he wants a somewhat big shark. Short range and to a lesser extent, medium range ultimates are trash for damage.

The shark itself only appears after 2 seconds.

Fizz would be running towards you during said two seconds, you'd presumably toss something at him which would make him E, then hop back down.

Shark appears, he then Qs you and autoattacks you with empowered W, which takes around another 0.5-0.75 seconds. The shark itself can never realistically 100-0 anyone.

What was his items? How long distance was the shark? Where were you when you were hit by the shark specifically? (Where in midlane for example)

LauchmelderMay 21, 20171 votes

Then nobody can instakill you. It's that simple.

"Uh hurr durr, travel time hurr." Yea, like every other goddamn ability in this game.

On top of that, if the fish is on you you're dead. That's the definition of unhealthy btw. I don't expect a Fizz player to understand.

JoxcabMay 21, 20171 votes

Yes exactly. No one can ever instantly kill you.

Travel time by itself isn't a factor (such as if Veigar had 10 billion AP and could just kill any squishy with a Q or R). But it still adds into the overall time because if they initiate with something with a travel time and it doesn't instantly kill you, it means you know from the very second they fire it, they're about to try and all in. Not from the moment it hits or from the moment the execution starts (the latter part of the combo in this case after the shark pops out).

Oh cute, it can't think of any actual valid defense or counter arguments so it automatically assumes I main the champion they're crying about. How adorable.

The fish being on you doesn't mean you're dead. It can't ever 100-0 you, Exhaust on supports and on midlaners when they're against assassins is a thing as is Barrier. Zhonya's, Locket, Redemption, and MR all exist. It isn't unhealthy in the slightest. It can be dodged, bodyblocked, and made ineffective through any of the things mentioned previously.

LauchmelderMay 21, 20171 votes

You know what's adorable? How you still think I bother reading any of your shit. I got you blacklisted now.

JoxcabMay 21, 20171 votes

Oh cute, this thing thinks I care about it crying its eyes out because it's incapable of making any actual argument.

ChønklordMay 20, 20172 votes

I don't see you complaining about Zed when he all-ins someone, finished off with pressing R and walking away while you burst into giblets.

Or Syndra, who just literally presses one button and someone dies.

Or (a decent) Fiora, who can dps/draintank a whole team if she's ahead (ahead being 3 items).

Or Kat, who I've seen many players just smash keys and get pentakills -- and yes, even deleting tanks off the map with one rotation.

Oh hey you know what counters assassins?

Brains (i.e. don't stand around if you're a fucking squishy with low hp like you're gonna do something about fizz/etc going in on you).
Itemization: oh hey look, you have zero fucking magic resist items and/or no zhonyas, ga, etc? you deserve to get erased from the map.
NOT Counterpicking yourself / back pick. Sucks that you got first pick in ranked as mid laner, bruh. Really sucks you picked veigar while fizz was not banned, bruh. Really, really, REALLY sucks that you thought you could outplay even a mediocre fizz player as veigar, bruh.
NOT Blowing all your load. Damn, you're playing lux and you missed your Q, your E, your ult, AND you don't have mana left for a W cast and/or all your summs are down? What in the fuck are you doing still in the lane vs fizz, buddy? If he's got anything left after you blew all your wad out into nothingness, get the fuck out cause you bout ta get chummed.
Move dat ass. Yea, you know, like literally right clicking around while you are last hit farming. That's a thing most experienced players do. Don't sit still; become a moving target. Watch your fucking lane opponent, especially if they're an assassin. We fizz players are always watching you; waiting for that right time (whether it be a crucial ability level-up, or a lapse in the enemy's vision/concentration) to fuck. you. up.

The important part though, is that we have to land our ult on you first (usually) and actually reach you. It's not that easy when you're an ap squishy melee "assassin". If we burn our E, we lose our escape ability (unless flash is up). If we Q through a minion to reach you, we lose potential finishing damage from that Q. If we use flash to gap-close, well that's flash down. Most CC, sometimes even soft CC, can stop a fizz player dead in their tracks, especially vs burst mages like Syndra, Lux, et al.

It really isn't as easy as you think playing Fizz; if you get outplayed by one it's usually your own damned fault and you deserve to get blown up for it. Because you were outplayed. If you don't like it, either play something that stops fizz/other assassins (like bruisers/juggernauts), or play an even stronger assassin/mage.

You know what really fucks up a Fizz' day? Fiora Illaoi Leblanc Katarina Kayle Orianna Syndra Swain Zyra MasterYi Darius Annie Cassiopeia

You're welcome.

LauchmelderMay 21, 20171 votes

I don't complain about those champions because they have no untargetability in their kit.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 20, 20171 votes

Like, yeah, you aren't wrong, but the issue isn't that.

The issue is that, when fizz is strong, he can almost ALWAYS get ahead. And when he's weak, he's almost ALWAYS behind.

I'm not making a generic argument against assassins. A lot of assassins have healthy gameplay. The troll poll, in particular, makes him difficult to balance, imo.

I'm doin my best to make a well-reasoned argument; if the troll poll stays, what else can be done to balance him? When was fizz balanced, and why, I guess is my question? Again, not sure I've ever seen him both healthy and balanced, and that's why he ever had changes to begin with.

He's frustrating in a way that not all champs are. He's part of the "consistently frustrating to play against" club. That isn't your fault, and it isn't blind rage either. He's legit annoying. What, in your opinion, could be done about that? It's not as simple as, "git gud." There's a design issue here.

JoxcabMay 20, 20171 votes

But it doesn't matter if he's annoying.

People need to get over it or learn to deal with said annoying parts lol

His E is healthy, just as Fizz is. It's his only safety tool as a melee assassin who has to dive melee range and then stay there so he can get the W proc off. It has a significantly long cooldown (relative to fighting and teamfights that is).

ChønklordMay 20, 20171 votes

If Riot deleted/nerfed every champion that someone else found "annoying or frustrating" to play against, there wouldn't be anything left to play (well maybe except for Amumu , everyone loves Amumu).

I gave the suggestion a while ago to Riot that perhaps they could investigate removing his damage to champions from his E2; that is, turning his E2 strictly into a farming ability. Double up the damage to minions for his E2, but remove damage to champions. Now it's strictly for farming, and for mobility.

To compensate, they could transfer power back over to his ult, or his Q, or find a way to balance W's passive in a way that allows fizz to still do damage (but keep the base damage down and ap ratios up so tank fizz doesn't become too strong).

Or you know, balance him as a melee fighter/bruiser and not an AP assassin;

Lower the damage on his ult, remove champion damage from E (as stated above), increase dmg to W or revert the W nerfs, and lower AP ratios but increase his base hp and base dmg. Maybe convert some of his AP ratios or the W damage ratios to %hp since they fucking love to give everything %hp dmg nowadays.

Make him into something like a cross between tahm kench and fiora, but not as tanky and not as 'damage-y'. Let his tank / on-hit bruiser build flourish, and if some players still want to go full AP then they can still do that (since he keeps SOME AP ratios), but nowhere near the same level of BURST damage as current AP fizz. He'll be better off in the long run, and players will complain less because he won't be bursty, but he will still be "wriggly and annoying" but will have to actually STICK to targets for longer than a few seconds to kill someone (DPS/DoT damage, not Burst/DoT damage).

JoxcabMay 20, 20171 votes

Nah it's frustrating to die to a gank because I can't sidestep properly and I'm shit at dodging his Q. Oh right his R is totally no counterplay unhealthy unfair bullshit op fotm freelo because it's WAY too big and you can't escape it and it does a trillion damage if he goes full ap which he almost never does.

Delete him too.

ChønklordMay 20, 20171 votes

item 3070 Amumu

B b b b but... let's be friends FOREVER.

ClutchisClutchMay 21, 20172 votes

I got to agree in the bonobo. I don't play fizz but looking at the stats yeah its definetly a nerf

warpenguin555May 20, 20171 votes

He deserves more

CavemanteroMay 21, 20171 votes

Fizz not as broken as Ezreal . But we...he's honestly more frustrating to play against because of the immunity window and ridiculous escapability in low elos. He's not op at all but the w is definately a broken ability like ez's e..anyone with a free flash built into their kit is broken because of how powerful it actually is. Dash's aren't as broken because they have to face a certain direction and/or usually keep the player targetable. The immunity window is what makes flash so good and why everyone uses it. Now put the same thing in a kit....

strutMay 21, 20171 votes

You see the problem with Fizz is not his winrate. I don't care about how successfully he carries games. I only care about how much fun i am having while playing this game. Against Fizz i never have fun. Not if he is stomping me not if i am stomping him. Never. It's not because he is op or not. It's because his kit is the most annoying thing i have to deal with in this game.

And Fizz players know exaclty that they are siphoning the fun out of others experience with League. You know exactly. That's why i have no respect for any Fizz player.