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Suggestion: Rework Short Ranged ADCs into light fighters

SaltyToplaneGoat··2 votes·958 views

Now, I'm mostly talking about Vayne and Sivir.

Having a champ that only is about basic attacks will almost always feel a bit lackluster in terms of their abilities. Recent ADC's, such as Jinx or Kalista changed that a little, but there are only so many things you can do with basic attacks without almost breaking the game (looking at you here, Kalista).

The thing is, Vayne has maybe 2 combat abilities (and a ult that is activate & forget) and one of them one-time skill. Not exactly what you expect of a champ that was supposed to deliver constant dps. Sivir's abilities are not really interesting either... she's a champ with a unique weapon, but plays like some "generic basic attack"-character.

I still want them to be able to deal decent damage at range, but if they want to really wreck shit they would have to get their squishy butt into danger, taking a risk for a potential high reward. That would make them harder to play, but I don't see how this is a bad thing. So you have to practice and master your champion... how can that be bad?

So, I already have some idea's to how this might look. Now, before you start flaming here keep in mind that those are only some loose suggestions mashed together and not a complete reworking concept.

Ideas for Vayne : Move Silver Bolts to her passive and make it physical % damage. Don't worry, she will be able to make this true damage due to interaction with her kit.

Give Tumble the stealth from level 1 on, but make it really low early so you can only make strong use of it after leveling.

New ability for W: The next basic attack is point black range and applies a stack of Silver bolts to an enemy, dealing physical damage. Bonus damage If it hits an enemy from behind. If this ability is used to actually PROC the passive, the passive deals true damage instead.

E can stay as it is. When it procs Silver Bolts it also turns the damage of the passive into true damage.

New Ability for the ultimate: Not sure exactly what, but it should include bonus movement speed and maybe a smokebomb effect? Several salves of rapid fire from that crossbow boxes on her arms? I'm not exactly sure, but I think here theme would allow stuff like that.

These ideas would rise her total power but would make her less frustrating to play against as you now have to actually WORK to get your precious true damage. And for your W you have to get really, really close, so you also have to take risks, especially in teamfights. Her dueling and outplay potential might go through the roof, but that has to be tested.

Now, let me throw in some ideas for Sivir too. Sure, she can keep her Q throw, but as it is now this ability is not really interesting. In general her kit is not really focussed around the one aspect that makes her theme unique: the crossblade. Also she's one fucking brutal merc that would murder you for some gold, a bandit leader of the unforgiving shurima desert - yet ingame she barely has that feel. You are not brutal, nor do you show any specific skills in weapon-control.

I made a thread about her some time ago, but I'm too lazy to digg that up now, so I'm just writing down what I can remember.

Passive: You can "loot" the corpses of enemy champions for bonus gold. This requires a several seconds channel. Sometimes risky tho as your greed can literally get you killed. Maybe keep the old passive in here? Not sure.

Q: Make the blade fly in a curved way (think of one Diana Q in, another back). While the weapon is in the air Sivir uses throwing daggers to attack, but they deal less damage. Using Q gives a short increase of movement speed as you are no longer weighted down by the blade.

W: New ability, close range: spins blade in close range like a circle saw, for massive damage. (This is supposed to be her "dirty and brutal" trick. I want blood splattering VFX on that one!)

E: Spellshield, as usual. But when activated while Q is in the air, the cross-blade will directly return, dealing bonus magic damage on the way back and giving the shield upon arival.

R: Again, the ultimate got me thinking. It should remain a skill that should allow your team to either get into the fight or to vanish without a trace. I was going with an idea of conjouring a sandstorm that speeds up allies and hinders enemy vision, including a temporary disable to wards. Would fit well with her theme of a desert banidt (Does anyone remember the story of Ali Baba and the 40 thieves? The bandits come out of nowhere, steal everything and then vanish in the sands with no one being able to trace them. That's kinda the vibe I'd like to get from that ^^)

Anyways, those are just my ideas to makes those champs more complex and turn them into "close range fighters" as that would fit their themes. I'm not really bothered about balance discussions, so please don't start any. I'm caring more about reducing frustration from the gameplay and the execution of what the champion is supposed to represent with their gameplay - also I have no idea what Sivir's current balance state in the meta is (have not seen many recently...)

24 Comments

DisasterSola3 votes

Listen dude: Your opinions are quite literally "b-buh im a special snowflake s-so they need to change it because i say so!" v Thats all fine and dandy, but youre not listening to people who dont agree with you.

You brought up Sivirs lore. You realize HOW a champion plays is NOT how theyre reflected in their lore, right? Sivir had some massive nerfs. The W nerf is one i never liked and still dont agree with.

Vayne is simply a duelist, but because shes an ADC, she has access to the best itemization in the game.

Caitlyn could use a rework in general because shes to safe and non-interactive.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Uhm, I'm still waiting for people to actully bring up a valid point to what change is exactly bad because of what. That's why I posted them in detail in the first place - I want a civil discussion here, gathering and discussing ideas. I could have also posted "SHOULD WE REWORK SIVIR/VAYNE? YES OR NO?" if I wanted answers like this other guy there is posting.

Well, but why do we have lore in the first place then? Good gamedesign translates a character's personality into gameplay and let's you experience that as a player. This is why we do not give Draven the abilities of an healing support. Because he is DRAVEN - an established character. And that's just one example.

Vayne would fit as a duelist as she is pretty much the Batman of Valoran (minus universal utility belt and grappling hook). Dead rich parents killed by criminal black magics, swore revenge and learned fighting to hunt down all like that what ruined her childhood. I can see a character that goes 1 vs 1 with undead creatures and witches without even using magic (no superpowers, yet another Batman factor here ^^) herself as a duelist ingame - my goals with the suggestion was to make her less frustrating to play against without making her simply weaker.

The Sivir changes I suggested look kind of harmless in comparion. Removal of the hard-to-balance AS steroid (that's why it was nerfed) and a replacement with another, poitentially awesome spell, rised complexity of the crossblade and a slight change to how the ult works with keeping it's original functionality of either getting in or out of a fight with your team.

Oh, and the passive. I wonder why no one has mentioned that yet. I mean, she is a bandit who kills people and takes their cash. And we don't have an ability interacting with champion corpses yet...

Yepp, you are indeed right on Caitlyn here, but she needs another approach than the ideas I had for the two in the thread. As I barely play Cait I can not really give any information to it, but pushing her more into the sniper-corner would be a good start.

DisasterSola2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-08-14T03:13:07.761+0000)

snip

A civil discussion where you, the one with something to prove, expects the rest of us to prove why what we have currently is fine?

Listen dude. Neither sivir nor vayne need reworks or changes. Sivir could use her old toggle back, but thats the only change. You have this weird, asinine assumption that a champion must reflect their lore, this is NOT true. Sivirs ORIGINAL LORE is what we had for the longest time; she was just a lone soldier of fortune, and to that effect, she was very self sufficient. With her current, SHuRIMA, sivir is nothing more than a broad in distress.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

First Lore -> Then Gameplay. Because why else should we even HAVE lore then? A lore without ANY connection to the game is pretty much meaningless and on the level of "bad fanfiction" - and that is something so horrible I do not wish it on my most horrible enemies.

Well, she is STILL a indepedent warrior looking for some easy cash to get, so her lore has not really been through much change.

She either robs people (reflected in her VO) or works for the one who pays the most (although she might think twice about that after that thing with Cassiopaia). Well, she had the "damsel in distress" role in the Shurima Event, but that was only for reviving Azir.

Sigh, I just wish they would fix the broken anatomy on her splashart... Not that it looks too bad, but seeing impossible body stances is kinda of... well, you would expect more from a hired artist <_<

DisasterSola2 votes

"Short range"

I think ADCs need a subclass called "Duelist"... Not "light fighter"....

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Ah, THAT was the word. "Slightly Ranged Duelist"...

I just had the word in mind from when they discussed the Fiora rework : as a close range fighter that relies both on abilities and basic attacks. They ccalled her a "light fighter" back then if I remember correctly...

Marthian1 votes

Other than her abilities like most other adc champions and her Q swap, Jinx is very much about auto attacks.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Yes, but her auto attacks feel completly different due to her Q. It's not that same thing you use all the time, you swap between minigun and rockets, two modes that play COMPLETLY different. Also the rest of her kit consists of nice tools to work with that ore not just stat/AS boosts or somehow enchanced basic attacks. You have something to work with - And I have to admit that it feels awesome to play!

That's why I put her into the category of "good design"... of course ADC's should remain basic-attackers, but at least give them some cool abilities to work with!

ZephyrDrake1 votes

most ADCs are auto reliant, might as well rework every single ADC not named Ezreal Graves Corki into light fighters

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, there are not many adc's that are short range AND not already ability based right now. Keep in mind I'm talking about SHORT RANGE here, not about those like Caitlyn , Ashe , Kalista, Jinx ,Tristana ,KogMaw or MissFortune .

If you add your three on them that leaves only a very small group of ADCs that could fit into that category. Sure, I have no idea with a champ being able to do some basic auto attacking, but it should not be ALL they do when they are already in range to do more interesting stuff.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-08-13T22:17:40.882+0000)

Well, there are not many adc's that are short range AND not already ability based right now. Keep in mind I'm talking about SHORT RANGE here, not about those like Caitlyn , Ashe , Kalista, Jinx ,Tristana ,KogMaw or MissFortune .

If you add your three on them that leaves only a very small group of ADCs that could fit into that category. Sure, I have no idea with a champ being able to do some basic auto attacking, but it should not be ALL they do when they are already in range to do more interesting stuff.

sorry but no, they are boring since all they do is auto attack. Being short range has nothing to do with it since other than Cait everyone's range is fairly similar. There is no reason whatsoever to change Sivir or Vayne into light fighters just because you don't like them as they are right now. Their short range is meant to be a weakness due to the utility (sivir's case) or damage (vayne's) they bring

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Dude, bring up some arguments please. I get neither criticism on my concept or my ideas just "WÄH WÄH CHANGE IS BAD!".

And yes, basic attack champs ARE boring when badly designed. Just compare old Ashe (rightclick focuseed) to new Ashe (an additional active ability). Still not perfect, but the difference is obvious! Cait is a massive wasted thematic opportunity. Why does a sniper shoot out some lawnmower thing out of her gun as if it was a shotgun? Whatever, I better make another thread for that one.

Why this works with Sivir and Cait? All the others use typical long range weaponary - bows, guns, acid atillery, you call it. Sivir uses a weapon that could as well be used melee and Vayne has this awesome tumble thing that would go perfectly for either kiting, dodging, or maybe taking a risk and use it to set up your W I came up with for a maximum of damage.

Also, you can't tell me you seriously put Kog'Maw into that category of "short range". Shows you have little to no understanding of the champs we are talking about. Please leave my thread, I'd rather discuss this with someone more qualified.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-13T22:32:16.333+0000)

Dude, bring up some arguments please. I get neither criticism on my concept or my ideas just "WÄH WÄH CHANGE IS BAD!".

And yes, basic attack champs ARE boring when badly designed. Just compare old Ashe (rightclick focuseed) to new Ashe (an additional active ability). Still not perfect, but the difference is obvious! Cait is a massive wasted thematic opportunity. Why does a sniper shoot out some lawnmower thing out of her gun as if it was a shotgun? Whatever, I better make another thread for that one.

Why this works with Sivir and Cait? All the others use typical long range weaponary - bows, guns, acid atillery, you call it. Sivir uses a weapon that could as well be used melee and Vayne has this awesome tumble thing that would go perfectly for either kiting, dodging, or maybe taking a risk and use it to set up your W I came up with for a maximum of damage.

Also, you can't tell me you seriously put Kog'Maw into that category of "short range". Shows you have little to no understanding of the champs we are talking about. Please leave my thread, I'd rather discuss this with someone more qualified.

rework every single AA reliant champion or none, simple as that. No reason to change Vayne or Sivir just because you don't like how they play.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, you gotta start SOMEWHERE, no? So why not take those that already offer it from their theme and why not also take the chance to reduce this sheer amount of frustration Vayne is causing by making her more interesting to play at the same time?

Also, yes, why the hell not? I'd love to play Cait as an actual sniper with really long ranged skill shots you shoot from some kind of "sniper position" (she's pretty much the worst offender in terms of thematic fail). Or just move Varus' blight to his passive and give him a third basic ability to play with! I have seen really cool concepts for that one!

Just look at all every single adc rework so far: Trist got a new ability/mechanic, so did Ashe, all to make them less monotonous and not about JUST basic attacking.

DisasterSola2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-13T23:10:29.644+0000)

Well, you gotta start SOMEWHERE, no? So why not take those that already offer it from their theme and why not also take the chance to reduce this sheer amount of frustration Vayne is causing by making her more interesting to play at the same time?

Also, yes, why the hell not? I'd love to play Cait as an actual sniper with really long ranged skill shots you shoot from some kind of "sniper position" (she's pretty much the worst offender in terms of thematic fail). Or just move Varus' blight to his passive and give him a third basic ability to play with! I have seen really cool concepts for that one!

Just look at all every single adc rework so far: Trist got a new ability/mechanic, so did Ashe, all to make them less monotonous and not about JUST basic attacking.

Sivir is an ADC support; he has a lot of utility. Vayne IS a duelist. One of the best in the game.

Caitlyn? You know what, lets give caitlyn a 425 range, and make her W a 1000 range skill shot that costs 30 mana, has an ammo system, and doesnt reload until the ammo is spent.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Sivir prefers a female pronoun I think...

And if you had read her lore I think she is everything BUT a support. Utility? Yes, of course (look at the ult version I have suggested above), but she's also one dangerous woman.

Vayne's dueling power right now is not really well designed and causing a LOT of frustration. Like this we could reduce the frustation by making her even MORE about dueling at the same time.

Hmmm, actually, that does not sound too bad. Let me do some thinking...

Skill activation: you lie down on the ground, rifle in front of you. With an ammo sytem you can shoot several fast skillshots, but they have a red-laserpointer warning indicator.

Leaving the stance takes a short time, getting cc breaks it, so you better set this up a bit away from the fight or have a tank protect you. BÄM! Suddenly you have a champ that actually plays like a sniper. Ofc that would require some other tweaks to her kit, but the concept itself is not too bad.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-13T23:10:29.644+0000)

Well, you gotta start SOMEWHERE, no? So why not take those that already offer it from their theme and why not also take the chance to reduce this sheer amount of frustration Vayne is causing by making her more interesting to play at the same time?

Also, yes, why the hell not? I'd love to play Cait as an actual sniper with really long ranged skill shots you shoot from some kind of "sniper position" (she's pretty much the worst offender in terms of thematic fail). Or just move Varus' blight to his passive and give him a third basic ability to play with! I have seen really cool concepts for that one!

Just look at all every single adc rework so far: Trist got a new ability/mechanic, so did Ashe, all to make them less monotonous and not about JUST basic attacking.

Ashe just auto and uses Q when the stacks are full which just makes her autos be better... how is she not just about auto attacking? she is playing exactly the same as before the rework. You are just wanting to change champion for the sake of changing them, and don't even know what a AA reliant ADC is it seems since for some reason you think Ashe is any different now than she was before her rework. REWORK EVERY SINGLE AA RELIANT ADC OR NONE! Sivir brings utility in the form of waveclear and making not only her but her entire team charge into fights, how does that go against what she is?

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Formating. You ever heard of it? Arguing with people who don't even know the basics... how draining.

Uhm, no, she does NOT play like before her rework. She can no longer randomly crit, her slow no longer consumes mana and she has an ability pattern set around her basic attacks - all things that made her a somewhat more complex and enjoyable champion than before.

Uhm, sorry, to disturb you bubble, but your W is everything but a waveclear tool, especially not early. It's mostly used for it's attack speed steroid. If you want to waveclear use a Q.

Hell, you can barely even harass with those W things. Barely no damage and the enemy sees them coming if you don't shoot them directly on them. The skill itself is laughable weak and could be completly replaced by another spell that takes over the role of "helping you to murder your enemy in a fight", but maybe without being a simple attack speed boost.

Also I never said anything about her ultimate NOT speeding up her team. I might ask you if you have even read the post...

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-08-14T00:06:31.106+0000)

Formating. You ever heard of it? Arguing with people who don't even know the basics... how draining.

Uhm, no, she does NOT play like before her rework. She can no longer randomly crit, her slow no longer consumes mana and she has an ability pattern set around her basic attacks - all things that made her a somewhat more complex and enjoyable champion than before.

Uhm, sorry, to disturb you bubble, but your W is everything but a waveclear tool, especially not early. It's mostly used for it's attack speed steroid. If you want to waveclear use a Q.

Hell, you can barely even harass with those W things. Barely no damage and the enemy sees them coming if you don't shoot them directly on them. The skill itself is laughable weak and could be completly replaced by another spell that takes over the role of "helping you to murder your enemy in a fight", but maybe without being a simple attack speed boost.

Also I never said anything about her ultimate NOT speeding up her team. I might ask you if you have even read the post...

ummm no, she plays exactly the same. She might not be able to crit but buying crit still increases her damage so it's a moot point. Her slow used to cost so little mana the longer the game went that you forgot that thing was even on consuming mana each time you auto attacked, so once again no real difference between her now and then. W might not clear waves as fast you are still using it in the exact same fashion, push waves, poke champions so how is her W so much more different now than before? it deals almost the exact same damage as before, only thing it's easier to block minions to block it so you actually have to aim it. Tell me how is she oh so much different than before since the exact same things she used to do before are the exact same things she can do now with the only difference being her Q which doesn't really change how you play her. You just now have a steroid in your kit that you didn't before.

You are the one complaining how Sivir shouldn't be a supportive ADC because it goes against her and besides her wave clear her ult fits her theme perfectly. So once again what's wrong with her? oh right, nothing!

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Again: did you read the suggestion I had for Sivir's ultimate? DID YOU READ IT? I guess not, because that would require a certain minimum of mental capacity, I apologize for asking so much of you, but please stop embarassing yourself and inform yourself because all you do is spout utter nonsense without even having read the post in the first place

I simply took the current version of her ult, compared it to her theme and made up a way to make it awesome. It's still not a damaging ultimate, it still speeds up teammates in it's radius - if anything it would fit even BETTER into her theme as a desert bandit than "I shout now really loud and therefore we are all fast HERP DERP".

I say Sivir shouldn't be a supportive adc, but an utility and teamwork focussed adc because of her theme, but apparently you are not able to grasp this very fine difference. Let me explain it to you really slow and simple, ok?

Supportive characters in their theme are champions like Sona, Soraka, Bard, etc. Champions that are ACTUAL supports. Ashe fits into there two as her theme is that of a political unifier and peace maker.

Sivir on the other hand falls in the same theme as Kalista: Can get shit done herself but works best in a team. That's why she's not a support-adc, but an utility-adc. Now, was that so hard?

And please don't even bother replying unless you state your opinion to my actual suggestions. I'm sick and tired of this whiny "mimimi all change is bad mimimimi".

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-14T01:20:16.509+0000)

Again: did you read the suggestion I had for Sivir's ultimate? DID YOU READ IT? I guess not, because that would require a certain minimum of mental capacity, I apologize for asking so much of you, but please stop embarassing yourself and inform yourself because all you do is spout utter nonsense without even having read the post in the first place

I simply took the current version of her ult, compared it to her theme and made up a way to make it awesome. It's still not a damaging ultimate, it still speeds up teammates in it's radius - if anything it would fit even BETTER into her theme as a desert bandit than "I shout now really loud and therefore we are all fast HERP DERP".

I say Sivir shouldn't be a supportive adc, but an utility and teamwork focussed adc because of her theme, but apparently you are not able to grasp this very fine difference. Let me explain it to you really slow and simple, ok?

Supportive characters in their theme are champions like Sona, Soraka, Bard, etc. Champions that are ACTUAL supports. Ashe fits into there two as her theme is that of a political unifier and peace maker.

Sivir on the other hand falls in the same theme as Kalista: Can get shit done herself but works best in a team. That's why she's not a support-adc, but an utility-adc. Now, was that so hard?

And please don't even bother replying unless you state your opinion to my actual suggestions. I'm sick and tired of this whiny "mimimi all change is bad mimimimi".

I AM REPLYING AND YOUR SUGGESTIONS SUCK DEAL WITH IT!

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Uhm, no, you are not.

All I hear is "mimimi why change, everything is perfect as it is". At least I know now that you have not enjoyed any academic education, because even a highschooler knows how to argument better.

You simply take the suggestion that thinks is bad. Explain why it is bad and where the flaw is and the present that in a lingual acceptable manner. Quite basic stuff, no?

Simply saying "It is bad because I don't like" is not really a rational argument. I could let my 14 year old nephew write a thesis about it and it would be more qualified than everything you wrote in this entire thread.

So, either man up and disicuss, or begone from this thread. I have no time to deal with kiddos who can't even formulate a single rational argument.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2NAANFiR,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-14T01:46:21.016+0000)

my suggestions suck!

fixed it

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

I congratulate you to making such an impeccable argument. No, really, I could not have written it in a more eloquent manner - ah no, scrap that.

I wonder if you think you are funny, or if you really just lack the mental capacity and the manners to lead a civil discussion. If I were you I would stop posting before embarassing myself even further. But feel free to keep uploading your verbal diarrhea, at least it bumps the thread and I get a faint feeling of amusement because you cannot even argue back.

It's like an adult watching a toddler throwing a trantum - slightly annoying at most, amusing at best.

But go ahead, keep replying in such unconstructive manner - with every bump there will be the chance that someone actually intellectual will reply here and I can finally have a nice discussion about my ideas.

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