Mage and tank items are really stupid

Anime Fizz·Feb 16, 2019·2 votes·2,033 views

Hashinshin nails it again.

Edit : Some points of the video

Cheap armor items are too powerful to the point something as stupid as conqueror has to exist to make bruisers viable, which is the truth.

Bramble vest one of the worst designed items in the game, true.

Mage items in full "glass cannon" builds are not only cheap but also gives tons of survivability, also true.

Mage items for the most part are just straight up better than AD, like how void is so much better than LDR, again truth backed by numbers (LDR more expensive and gives less damage), also Hourglass is much better than GA in every way possible (more damage, more resists, better active, all of that for only extra 100 golda nd much better build path).

Mages abusing aftershock to death in competitive (ryze/liss/galio) true again.

46 Comments

SaezioFeb 16, 20199 votes

Well, if we were to listen to hashinshin, Top lane should have 100% agency over the game, also tanks,mages,assassins, and champs with skillshots shouldn't be viable there too.

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20192 votes

Ok, we get it: you didn't watch the video, you hate hashinshin, are you feel entitled enough to voice that opinion over the topic itself just to try to discredit someone.

SaezioFeb 16, 20196 votes

I am saying, if I wanted an estimate on classes' power relevant to eachother, I wouldn't ask someone that couldn't get into D1 for the intirety of season 8. Sorry. There are thousands of toplaners that are higher than him in the ladder.

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20191 votes

Ok? How does that matter?

Did you disprove his argument? No, you just questioned his credibility. You still did not disprove his argument.

SaezioFeb 16, 20197 votes

I need to disprove someone that starts the video by saying that tanks is mostly what is played in the top?

/doubt

Except sion, no other tank is played. Sure bruisers, sure a couple juggernauts here and there. not tanks

IlluminatraFeb 16, 20192 votes

Chogath Poppy

SaezioFeb 16, 20191 votes

alright I'll give you poppy (4% playrate 51% winrate) cho though is at 1,4% pick and 48% win xD

SithesisLordFeb 16, 20191 votes

Cho'Gath isn´t a tank.

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20192 votes

most picked top laner is Vladimir. Then Jayce. Then Urgot.

Ha ha ha ha ha, very funny man.

Also, you still haven't disproved his argument. Stop thinking you're instantly above him because you disagree with him on a single statement.

SaezioFeb 16, 20195 votes

I disagree with his way of thinking. He never ever ever ever said something he plays is op. And he is never to blame for anything. He is also always polarising and a poser in my opinion, not my aesthetic for a human.

I agree with a lot of challenger and masters players that treat him as a joke. :)

I remember the game he was crying about how broken fiora was then picked her and fed his ass off and blamed jungler when he got way more ganks and pressure than grigne. He is just a big crybaby

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20192 votes

Again, you have yet to give a single rebuttal to any of his arguments.

You only state you disagree because you are biased against him, rather than pointing out a flaw in his logic.

AseraanFeb 16, 20194 votes

The flaw in his logic that he has no intention of actually giving any positive or not biased idea on how to balance properly but doing a tantrum instead.

Anyone can do that no offense.

AseraanFeb 16, 20192 votes

Im honestly want to say yes he is right but im sry man the guy is basicly turning things out for himself all the time this isnt how "we" or anyone should face balancing a game. Even the title and the clickbait is false already........

SangreSteelFeb 16, 20192 votes

There isn't a single Tank in the top 10 most played top laners.

AseraanFeb 16, 20191 votes

Cant wait till sion gets revisited into juggernaut class and there will be no tanks in topXDDD

RalanrFeb 16, 20191 votes

Over my dead body!

AseraanFeb 16, 20191 votes

No i get it but for real yo i love it when pplt alking about how tanks are broken than says garenXD

RalanrFeb 16, 20191 votes

Oh my god I'm so tired of people doing that XD.

AseraanFeb 16, 20191 votes

I know right!?

OMG TANKS ARE SOO OP "than makes a lists of: Garen Urgot Jarvan Trundle (and than there is an actual tank) Sion

AseraanFeb 16, 20195 votes

Im used to watch his vids and currently watching it but the guy is pretty biased like ALL the time he has no consideration in anything else but anything that negativly impacts him is trash and anything is broken and he uses it is fine like a lot of us but we arent youtube stars for 9 year olds....

Also want to point out i liked him 1st but got pretty tired of him fast he is like the worst version of me complaining and talking trash 99% of the time hes not winning wich i would like to point out when you are losing u see soo much imbalance the world shifts......but than ur winning everything as it should be.........ye biased.

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20192 votes

That doesn't disprove the points he makes in this video.

AseraanFeb 16, 20192 votes

Im not here for disproving anything saying my opionion only and telling what i see in him.

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20191 votes

then your comment has no meaning and you are causing anti-productive discussion.

AseraanFeb 16, 20191 votes

Would not stand far from me.

Ahri BakaFeb 16, 20198 votes

Do you actually believe what you post ? I know there are levels of being delusional but usually a human should have a doubt

Anime FizzFeb 16, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2MwwOEYy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-16T01:26:51.061+0000)

Do you actually believe what you post ? I know there are levels of being delusional but usually a human should have a doubt

I mean i wish but hes actually right again lol.

Cheap armor items are too powerful to the point something as stupid as conqueror has to exist to make bruisers viable, which is the truth.

Bramble vest one of the worst designed items in the game, true.

Mage items in full "glass cannon" builds are not only cheap but also gives tons of survivability, also true.

Mages abusing aftershock to death in competitive (ryze/liss/galio) true again.

You could point wheres hes wrong here?

Ahri BakaFeb 16, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2MwwOEYy,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-16T01:28:38.927+0000)

I mean i wish but hes actually right again lol.

Cheap armor items are too powerful to the point something as stupid as conqueror has to exist to make bruisers viable, which is the truth.

Bramble vest one of the worst designed items in the game, true.

Mage items in full "glass cannon" builds are not only cheap but also gives tons of survivability, also true.

Mages abusing aftershock to death in competitive (ryze/liss/galio) true again.

You could point wheres hes wrong here?

He first said Zhonia is the most Broken item in the game " few minutes later "

Bramble Vest is the most broken item in the game

Please , choose one

Mages only have 1 build path and they freaking need gold

Like , You can complain however you want about how strong mage items are , at least they need gold , they need like 4 items or at least 3 to power spike This Guy is defending Conquerer that is already a freaking power spike itself anyway and doesn't even need gold

Only few mages using Aftershock , not all of them , Galio got gutted , what are you bringing him right now ? Ryze has his own problems and he got nothing but nerfs for the whole season 8 Liss is strong yes , but She is " a " mage , not " Mages "

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20191 votes

And what's wrong with Conqueror? If you look statistically, Conqueror isn't an issue. Have you tried playing a bruiser without Conqueror into anything? You deal no damage, especially into a tank.

Now it's being changed into a range abused rune because idiots complained about it when it is a non-problem.

RalanrFeb 16, 20195 votes

To be perfectly frank, if it wasn’t really a problem then Riot wouldn’t be changing it just because a couple idiots on a forum said so.

I don’t understand why people claim Riot both doesn’t listen to the community and listens too much.

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20192 votes

To be perfectly frank, if it wasn’t really a problem then Riot wouldn’t be changing it just because a couple idiots on a forum said so.

Yes, they would. They have plently of other times. Thornmail's current state was made in reaction to idiots claiming ADCs "draintank against tanks" despite evidence to the contrary.

Also, when has Riot had any level of consistent balance-based reasoning for their balance changes? We see every patch that balance changes are not based on trying to balance the game.

I don’t understand why people claim Riot both doesn’t listen to the community and listens too much.

Because Riot's balance when it comes "listening" to the community only works when it serves their bias. The balance team has ZERO bruiser top laner players. But it has a tank player? How about the mage players there while mages are the most broken class going unnerfed? How about the fact Meddler is a support main when supports became the most broken class under him? How about Yasuo who gets buffed every time he's weak?

Stop pretending Riot has any good rationale on trying to balance the game when we see every patch that balance changes contradict the facts.

RalanrFeb 16, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Stop pretending Riot has any good rationale on trying to balance the game when we see every patch that balance changes contradict the facts.

I'll stop pretending that the guys who kept an online multiplayer game running in popularity for nearly ten years have good rationale when you stop pretending that everything Riot does is meant to make the game unfun for Bruisers/ADCs/Tanks/Whatever flavor the boards is in currently (though I believe you're always in the bruiser crowd).

AirKingNeoFeb 16, 20192 votes

By running in popularity, you mean having a constantly updated, free to play game that has evolving graphics, interesting characters, constant bugfixing, and more?

There's plently of other reasons league is popular. You can't just disprove balance sucking by saying the game is popular, when a bunch of other factors exist that Riot does well that contribute to League's popularity.

And who said Riot was making the game unfun? I said they were serving their bias instead of balancing.

RalanrFeb 16, 20193 votes

Other games do just that, why is league on top above them? And while you're right that popularity doesn't disprove balance sucking, it's a strong contender for the balance being descent in the game.

People wouldn't keep playing a game if it was always unbalanced against them. Even popular bruiser players keep coming back.

TormentulaFeb 16, 20192 votes

{quoted}

To be perfectly frank, if it wasn’t really a problem then Riot wouldn’t be changing it just because a couple idiots on a forum said so.

I don’t understand why people claim Riot both doesn’t listen to the community and listens to too much.

Because thats exactly what happens sometimes.

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patch 8.10 - this one I want to blame hashinshin on, and I like how he complains about vertical jungling which is a result of these changes which we all saw coming.

While I agree conq needs hit, and what hashinshin is saying about mage itemization is just dumb, but he's right about the culprit being tank's powercrept to being juggernauts who don't itemize damage, forcing actual juggernauts and bruisers to power creep with runes that beat them, otherwise they get shit on. Conq needs hit, but tanks need a massive overhaul as a class (gutting damage while buffing utility.)

RalanrFeb 16, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Because thats exactly what happens sometimes.

Dynamic Queue

Positional Ranked

Less Control Wards in inventory

patch 8.10

While I agree conq needs hit, and what hashinshin is saying about mage itemization is just dumb, but he's right about the culprit being tank's powercrept to being juggernauts who don't itemize damage, forcing actual juggernauts and bruisers to power creep with runes that beat them, otherwise they get shit on. Conq needs hit, but tanks need a massive overhaul as a class (gutting damage while buffing utility.)

When I said, "Riot doesn't listen while at the same time listens too much" I mean that Riot is not 100% influenced by the community. If they see things that they find problematic, they'll try and deal with them. Now does this mean that Riot will do things the community asked for? Yes, but that doesn't mean they always do that. Look at all the fucking Karma mains who haven't gotten attention or a return of her shield bomb.

Riot listens but it also thinks.

AseraanFeb 16, 20192 votes

Right?

TormentulaFeb 16, 20196 votes

Hashinshin is probably the most famous league of legends player for his biased input.

He doesn't really realize what mages go through compared to AD's advantages with defensive itemization.

Void staff giving more % penetration then a LW item is because AD has access to; item 3071 item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 item 3036 item 3033 . All of these are penetration items that different classes can either abuse all of or some of them, on top of armor penetration being especially stronger due to the nature of auto attacking AD typically has via marksmen or bruisers. With Mages there is only 3 penetration options, 1 forces grevious wounds that you might not need rather then options like between LW items, one is forced on boots which cuts into defensive utility in itemization that AD typically has (even berserker greaves can be replaced with ninja tabis, while sorcs are too much to let go), and void staff, which is % based so its only good as a MR stacking counter. The fact there's less just makes mage itemization pretty binary. Do they get by anyway? yes, but thats mainly due to mages themselves being powercrept to keep up with their lack of options.

The only thing I slightly agree on is that tanks have powercrept to juggernaut levels, and the reason for runes like conq to exist is so those same tanks don't completely outclass damage dealers and bruisers while shitting on those same classes. I don't think conq was really a huge problem other then some abuse cases it enabled like AP tryn, but I do remember whenever there is a tank meta, tanks just being glorified juggernauts and I'm reminded of that every time I see one.

Iota ThetaFeb 16, 20194 votes

Someone else had shared the video, and I responded there, so i’m just gonna post my responses to some of his claims in the video:

I had to pull it. Tl;dr at the bottom.

“Tanks are dead!” Tanks are played more than any role in top lane.

Top lane, Diamond+: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/grid/

Only tanks worth noting in pick rate are Sion (known best tank at the moment), Shen (sub 50% winrate and builds some damage first), Poppy (slightly higher damage tank, good into mobility champs), Malphite (known anti-AD tank), and Maokai (generally reliable tank, looks like mostly mains), and Ornn (note, this is after his kit numbers were tuned ti more damage oriented). Highest pick is Sion at 6.5.

Fighters? Irelia: 8.6%. Nasus: 4.8%. Renekton: 7.9%. Riven: 12.7%. Sylas: 6.9%. Urgot: 9.5%. Yorick: 6.9%. Darius: 8.8%. Jax: 8.5%. Kled: 3.7%. Yeah, ok, tanks are most picked on toplane..totally not biased/hate statement

Mage items? Zhonya’s has a longer CD than a lot of ults. 45 armor and 300 HP isn’t that much, although if you don’t build any armor pen I guess that’s a lot. Just for comparison, AD’s get GA, which gives 5 less armor, and gives 45 AD, and a revive to try and get off another burst. Zhonya’s gives 75 AP, though the Adaptive Force conversion would place those two offensive stats about equal in value..oh look, he visits the damage later to show that the AP is better than AD and that “science can’t explain that”, disregarding that AD buffs autos and AD abilities, while AP only buff AP abilities.

Love how he lumps Diana and Sylas, AP fighters, into the mage category just cause they build AP. Forget that they’re also melee, rely on autoattacks or straight burst like an AD Fighter.

His Conquerer complaints are essentially nerf everything about a tank if they remove/change Conquerer. Forget that items exist to counter them. He talks about them taking half health because they have %damage (only a few tanks have damage that high), and mocks Riot’s decisions by saying their suggested “counterplay” is to build BC and Bork level 1. Apparently Last Whisper doesn’t exist.

He uses Poppy to talk about power creep and how much damage her Q does at level 1, referencing the damage of both Q pops, when the second one has a delay. If you have mobility and take both hits, that’s on you (level 1, so no wall stun)

Want to know why armor is cheaper than AD, Hash? So it spikes a bit earlier because eventually offense will outscale the defense, especially if you build defense penetration items.

Tl;dr: he’s wrong. He’s as biased as ever, clearly doesn’t enjoy the game, and doesn’t seem to understand balance. I just wanted to break apart some of his arguments.

Poop JohnsonFeb 16, 20191 votes

I mean I hate him, but he's not completely wrong.

AseraanFeb 16, 20191 votes

Ye times when his totaly not biased towards his own role his playingXD wich is kinda rare lets be honest......

AseraanFeb 16, 20191 votes

Im confused in the title you say tank items vs mage items than in the clickbait i see bruiser vs mage items and in the picture you see zonya vs ga wich is an adc itemXD

AseraanFeb 16, 20191 votes

Also mage items are cheapXDDDDDDDDD "laughs" in ad assasin and adcXDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

taleofsonataFeb 16, 20191 votes

Remember the bruiser patch that he was part off? Ah soo many broken stuff introduced in the game. Good times good times, and now what happened? Riot removing most of the broken stuff they broke with the game and have a balance issue because of it.

Tahminatrix Feb 16, 20191 votes

I kinda disagree with hashin because the only time he talks about tanks being strong is when he is fighting a sion as a mobile champion who can rape backline champs (kled) He even talked about how building black cleaver put him at a disadvantage when dealing with squishies...oh and then there he goes killing the adc in a 1v2.....lol

Even as someone who primarily plays tank, I hate bramble vest, I would much rather if it did 0 damage and just gave grevious wounds to whoever auto attacked me.

And when upgrading it to thornmail either:

A : have it also apply grevious wounds to whoever hits me with an ability. (Probably too strong)

B : have it also apply grevious wounds to whoever I auto attack (seems the most fair)

or C: have it also apply grevious wounds to whoever I hit using autos + abilities. (Probably too strong)

and remove that stupid coldsteel passive to compensate if a reliable grevious wounds is too strong, atleast ill be able to buy omen with it then.

I just don't want to be a walking healthbar for the enemy to leach off of, it makes building defensive items too punishing when they can already shred / bypass your resistances anyway.

heroikcFeb 16, 20191 votes

I never seen Ryze use Aftershock, and Galio is a tank (Warden). Plus, most fighters either have high damage and sustain options (Irelia, Illaoi, Renekton, Yorick, Aatrox, Nasus) or true damage (Darius, Garen, Kled, Camille), so armor should not be a problem one on one, unless the level and gold difference is too great. As for mage items, most talk has been about Rabadons, void staff, and luden's echo, with the "tankiest" items being morrello and zhonya's which isn't much.