Discussion: Does your rank matter when talking game balance?

IP Masquerena·May 23, 2018·17 votes·9,654 views

So here's a funny thing, most talks about balance on the boards, along the claims that Riot is all silvers and doesn't know how to balance are made by Scuttler > gank mid > Scuttle pathing, because Mobalitycs and other youtube vids said that that is the best pathing, so what you can do, is clear their jungle, since there will be camps for the taking. If they don't and play normally, what's the difference?

Now, what did all that have to do with the title? Simple. Pointing out that the balance Riot wants is different from the balance the majority of the community wants, many of whom are lower ranks, and thus, most of the lower ranked players' opinion on balance should not be considered as good in the overall way Riot wants it to be balanced. The majority say they want to out play and win, have a fair game, even if they lose, but if they get outplayed, then it's broken, Riot wants the better player to outplay the other, be it you, or your opponent. What is a fair game in the opinion of that majority? A game where they carry and win or a game where they feed their ass off, but the team pulls off a win regardless. If they carry and the enemy team shut them down, push for the win in a long game, it's the team's fault for the loss, not their's for overextending or misplaying. If they can't carry and the enemy team wins, it's the team's fault for not being good enough, which means that rank does matter to some extent, as many lower rank players cannot or will not try to understand and think outside the box, focusing on doing only what they know and feel safe with, thus compromising their game play.

Yes, Riot does fuck up things many times, but this time, at least in my opinion, credits must be given where credit is due, as Riot did a fantastic job and the game feels a lot better now than it was a while ago.

As for the joke: Q: How many bronze players are needed to change a light bulb? A: Noone knows, as they can't climb the ladder. badumtzz

(I hope noone will take the joke as an offence, it's just a joke, if you feel offended, well, deal with it. Yes, I know there are players who got out of Bronze [raises hand] and I know many can do that if they try and stop blaming, but until then, I'll tell you use the same patch FromSoftware told people who were complaining Dark Souls is too hard to use: git gud)

Let's try to keep it civilized, and as I said, I do not want to offend anyone, if you feel like I was poking fun at you, I wasn't, it was at the general concept of "bronze is bad", not at you personally, so again, keep it civilized and let's have a fun discussion.

[galio-happy] [sg-ahri-2]

155 Comments

DragfinMay 23, 201810 votes

{quoted}

So here's a funny thing, most talks about balance on the boards, along the claims that Riot is all silvers and doesn't know how to balance are made by <plat players, aka, golds, silvers and bronzies. Now let's take a bit of questioning, shall we?

In a post quite a bit back, the highest known rank of a Riot employee is Diamond 3 (if there are higher ones and I don't know, please inform me and I'll change this and give credit). Now, here comes the questions: (I'll let you know my opinions later)

If Riot doesn't know any balance, having their highest at D3, then subsequently, players who are bellow that rank, including both me, and all the forum criers, do not know balance, correct?

If ranks don't matter, then all the claims that "Riot are silvers, so they don't know balance" are invalid, meaning there is a difference from the type of balance players want and the type of balance Riot wants, and nothing more, correct?

Now let's change that perspective a bit:

Considering that most players in lower elos have a mentality set in stone that is in the lines of the following 3 aspects, we can make some conclusions, but first, the 3 aspects: (Those 3 aspects are taken by considering all players in the match are overall the same skill, as a player, as we can't know someone's skill on the champ correctly, so keep that in mind)

Enemy player has a bad game? LuL, you suck, I got zkillz

Ally player has a bad game? Reprot, noob lost me game

Player himself has a bad game? Reprot my team, noobs don't help (they got no reply for when being outplayed, as they can never be outplayed, either the enemy is hacking, or the allies int)

Now, why a player has a bad game is something that's game to game basis, maybe tilt that didn't wear off from a previous game even tho a break was taken (guilt of that), unknown match-up or faced with a good player in a match-up you used to win until that point, lack of knowing how to play when behind on certain champs (guilty of that), playing a champ you are not 100% confident on because your main was banned, being camped, having a bad game due to an ally suffering of the above, got outplayed, and many others (screw that, I'm guilty of all of the above).

Why did I went on and said all that? To make it easier to understand what type of balance the majority of the player base wants: they (the majority) want to do the same things every game they always did, regardless of the way their team performs, and win. Many say they want a fair game, but most want a fair game where THEY win, not just to play a fair game.

In my opinion, the last few patches, the game got more and more balanced, but with a twist, players are required to adapt and improvise, so doing the same thing over and over won't work. Which is a good thing for the game, because good players that can adapt and improvise will move up in the ladder, while the bad ones, well, I'll tell you a joke someone told me later, but take no offence, it's just a joke.

Now, what did I mean with adapt and improvise? Think at the 1 scuttler, lower ranked players complain that they need to compromise their pathing to take it, and many do that, so what does that allow us to do? Say you are bot side, scuttle spawns top side, you got 3 options:

If the enemy stops the clear and goes for it, clear his side for him, he will appreciate it.

If he did clear and goes for it, gank the bot lane, most players will expect you to go and duel for the scuttler, not to abandon it and gank. Enemy jungler gets 1 scuttle, your team gets 2 kills and 4 assists (there are 2 enemies, so 2 kills, but the other 2 players who didn't get the kill will get an assists, and since's 2 time 2, it's 4, just in case someone was wondering where I got the number) worth of gold.

Can't clear for him nor gank bot, gank mid, then collapse on the jungler along your mid laner.

Will a lower rank player think of doing one of the above actively? No. Because they will say those things aren't possible, because XYZ and forgot to call No. 39 so they can't rank up.

Yes, I get it, you can't do it every game, but you can abuse things that happen around the map. Many players who play early gankers will do a Buff > Scuttler > gank mid > Scuttle pathing, because Mobalitycs and other youtube vids said that that is the best pathing, so what you can do, is clear their jungle, since there will be camps for the taking. If they don't and play normally, what's the difference?

Now, what did all that have to do with the title? Simple. Pointing out that the balance Riot wants is different from the balance the majority of the community wants, many of whom are lower ranks, and thus, most of the lower ranked players' opinion on balance should not be considered as good in the overall way Riot wants it to be balanced. The majority say they want to out play and win, have a fair game, even if they lose, but if they get outplayed, then it's broken, Riot wants the better player to outplay the other, be it you, or your opponent. What is a fair game in the opinion of that majority? A game where they carry and win or a game where they feed their ass off, but the team pulls off a win regardless. If they carry and the enemy team shut them down, push for the win in a long game, it's the team's fault for the loss, not their's for overextending or misplaying. If they can't carry and the enemy team wins, it's the team's fault for not being good enough.

Yes, Riot does fuck up things many times, but this time, at least in my opinion, credits must be given where credit is due, as Riot did a fantastic job and the game feels a lot better now than it was a while ago.

As for the joke: Q: How many bronze players are needed to change a light bulb? A: Noone knows, as they can't climb the ladder. badumtzz

(I hope noone will take the joke as an offence, it's just a joke, if you feel offended, well, deal with it. Yes, I know there are players who got out of Bronze [raises hand] and I know many can do that if they try and stop blaming, but until then, I'll tell you use the same patch FromSoftware told people who were complaining Dark Souls is too hard to use: git gud)

Let's try to keep it civilized, and as I said, I do not want to offend anyone, if you feel like I was poking fun at you, I wasn't, it was at the general concept of "bronze is bad", not at you personally, so again, keep it civilized and let's have a fun discussion.

[galio-happy] [sg-ahri-2]

Anyone who thinks rank has anything to do with knowledge about balance is ignorant. Gaming experience and understanding how the game actually works means alot more. League is based on team play and is balanced accordingly with tweaks here and there.. Most people whine and bitch about balance because they base it on 1v1. That's the ignorant part. That's my two cents anyway.

atomicwitMay 23, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Anyone who thinks rank has anything to do with knowledge about balance is ignorant. Gaming experience and understanding how the game actually works means alot more. League is based on team play and is balanced accordingly with tweaks here and there.. Most people whine and bitch about balance because they base it on 1v1. That's the ignorant part. That's my two cents anyway.

rank corelates highly with game knowledge

DuskDaUmbreonMay 23, 201812 votes

Rank correlates with three things, not just knowledge:

Player skill. You could know literally every last bit of data about League, including every last bug in the game, but you won't climb if you can't properly CS or use your combos. You can climb up out of bronze and silver on skill alone.
Game knowledge. You're capped in how far you can climb with just skill. You won't get much higher than low gold without enough knowledge. Knowledge alongside skill will get you even higher, but knowledge alone won't get you anywhere. In fact, some coaches just can't get out of Silver, simply because they can't play well enough.
Willingness to grind. Quite possibly the most vital part. If you're not willing (or just don't have the time) to grind out enough ranked matches, you're not making it anywhere at all. Low willingness means you might have a net gain of a division or two a season at most, even if your mechanics and knowledge are absolutely perfect.

SalsonMay 23, 20185 votes

Knowledge can get you pretty far up if you play champs that don't have mechanics. Though you might want to stay away from midlane if you try to do that.

ZerenzaMay 23, 20183 votes

Game Knowledge comes mainly from Experience, a lot of high ELO streamer's have been playing for year's for example, it doesn't really correlate that well with a persons Rank, because there are plenty of people who either, don't play ranked at all or don't play it enough to climb.

Like if you want to climb the number 1 advice from high ELO player's is to play more games, and i mean dedicate 4-8 hours a day to it you get better the more you play and the amount of time you spend playing a game correlates with Game Knowledge you gain from those games.

Honestly if you account is atleast 2+ year's old you have just as much to say about game balance as anyone else, even if you didn't have the time to dedicate to climbing, you still have the same amount of experience playing it as someone who's diamond and started the same time as you.

Snowman ArcMay 23, 20182 votes

I kinda disagree. How can you not cs properly, after playing like 500 games per season? It's almost unimaginable. Like, you must be getting at least 7 cs/min at that point. This goes for other things as well, like dodging, landing skillshots etc. After a point, you just can't be below baseline bad, which means that game knowledge ALONE (considering you are above baseline bad) will get you to at least gold.

I can't fathom how someone "can't cs" or "can't use their combos". Is that a thing? Is that so hard to do?

I agree that grinding and patience are the most important things. Even a 55% win ratio is gonna require a lot of games to reach from let's say gold 5 to diamond.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 23, 20184 votes

Executing combos is going to be hard if you just lack the reaction speed to do it right.

And you can get knowledge from many other sources than actually playing. If you watch a few thousand matches, you'll pick up on most of the info regardless of whether or not you actually play (although actually playing helps get you a bit further, because you learn things to the point where you can't recite the numbers exactly, but you inherently know what a champion can do in that exact instance).

GhazterMay 23, 20183 votes

Please don't quote the whole OP

/>.<\

Snowman ArcMay 23, 20181 votes

How can you have high knowledge but still stay in silver? I practically got out of silver in season 5 by just optimizing my runes and masteries. If someone has game knowledge, then there is no way in hell they stay in silver, except if they only play 10 ranked games per season, or their internet shuts down once every other game.

LetMeCarry1983May 24, 20181 votes

How would you recommend it be done in season 8? I been trying since the start of the season. Could only reach as high as Silver 4. Can't seem to win past that point.

Snowman ArcMay 24, 20181 votes

Give me your main op.gg and I'l try to figure out what you need to do.

LetMeCarry1983May 24, 20181 votes

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=xelniya

Snowman ArcMay 24, 20181 votes

Why do you play Shyvana, especially with ghost? Your win rate on her is bad over A LOT OF games. Shouldn't this be an indication to drop this champion? Just pick Kayle, which it seems you're doing well on.
You play way too many other champions as well. Drop them. Nobody bans Kayle, so your 1-trick should be viable enough.
Try to farm harder, especially since you play Shyv and Kayle. They are monsterous if you farm well and reach 20 minutes without being behind. I play Graves on my smurf. No matter what happens on the map, killing or getting killed, I always farm up enough to the point that, in the worst scenario (like me being 0/3), I'm always on the same level as the enemy jungler, at least. That's also a rare occurence, I usually am in a place to solo take over the game, simply through farming. I waste no time. Always check the map, farm what is in front of you, then look in the jungle or unoccupied lanes to take more farm.
Avoid deaths. Dying means that your team plays with a disadvantage for the next few seconds. Enemy gets pressure, and you lose potential xp and gold. Avoid doing risky plays, especially if you know that you are not skilled enough to outplay your enemy. Take the safe route, farm up, get strong and OUTPACE your enemies.
Always do something on the map. Be useful AT ALL TIMES. Farm the incoming wave. If you pushed it into the tower and the enemy is missing, just hit the tower. Eventually, you get the tower = gold and map pressure. If the enemy laner is there, go to the river, place some vision in the enemy camps, take Scuttle if it's there. Rotate through lanes where you see an opening. Your allied mid laner died and you shoved top? Go mid and protect the tower + pick up cs. Enemy mid died? Shove your lane then join mid to push it.
Consider your options. Your team died, so the enemy team tries to do baron? You can't stop them. So just push some other lane to create pressure. In low elo, people will try to defend anything. Assuming you have farmed well, you should take all 1v1s, even 1v2s on Kayle. This means that they will either stop baron ( indirectly stopped them), or after they get it, they'll come to stop you. You have pushed the lane though, so they can't push for the next minute.

Another general advice is try to play champions that have early game agency. This means that they can influence how the early game goes. Graves is a perfect example. A jungler that can hold his own in 1v1s, that can invade to create opportunities, and can also gank with just a Red buff. I also played a lot of Jarvan before the Duskblade nerf (should still be good though). I would play safely (safe farm and safe invades) till level 6, then I'd go back, get as much AD as possible and dunk anyone. Again, seeing how a 5v4 (if I kill an enemy) creates pressure, It's easy to extend leads from that point on. Just play things that have the tools to give you an early advantage which can also easily affect the map afterwards for quick victories, while also trying to make them work late game, if you fail your early game.

http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=giorgos21cy This is my smurf account. The first 14 solo / duo games were not played by me, and they were all defeats and 3 more games were lost because my internet cut off. You can see how easy it is to carry these games. 65 wins, 24 losses. In the Jarvan and Graves games, you can see that my cs numbers are huge for junglers. 8.6cs/min on Graves and 7.6 on Jarvan, all at jungle is quite impressive, but also shows how far I was able to outpace every enemy to get these impressive KDAs and winrates.

LetMeCarry1983May 25, 20181 votes

I can't get past Silver 4 with Kayle this season. Kayle works great in Bronze. But in Silver, it's hell trying to make her work. The highest I've ever gotten with her is Silver 2 promos but that was last season. The problem I keep running into with Kayle is how long she takes to scale up. She comes online after 3 items, Berserkers, Nashors, and RageBlade. I have to hope that my team does't feed too much before I get those items. In Bronze it's ok because even when Bronze teams feed, the fed team doesn't really do anything with their lead. They kinda just dick around looking for more kills which prolongs the game and allows me to come back. However, in Silver, players group up at the drop of a hat. Teamfights in Bronze generally start after 25 minutes, in Silver 4 and higher, it can start as early as 10 minutes but generally around 15 minutes. At 7 CS per minute with no kills, Kayle gets her core items around 25 minutes. And if my team feeds and the enemy team starts grouping, there is very little a pre-RageBlade Kayle can do to stop them from just taking towers and inhibs.

Another problem with Kayle, is against decent players, team composition starts to matter. It is extremely difficult to carry, even when fed, when everyone on your team pick carries and the enemy team has shit like Zac, Sejuani, Malphite, Braum etc. Again, in Bronze, no problem. People group less in Bronze and you can find a lot of 1v1 or 2v1 skirmishes. But as you climb to around mid Silver, it's impossible to find picks because the whole team is always there, so team fighting becomes the order of the day. And when you have a team with zero initiation or front line, it's a nightmare. I've lost dozens of games where I got fed early and coulnd't do shit when team fights come around because of an inferior team composition.

These are the reasons I kinda dropped Kayle. She has so many glaring weaknesses that are difficult to work around.

As for Shyvana. I agree with you but I just love that champ too much and I'd be worse with any other jungler to be honest. Shyvana is just too enjoyable to me(The game still has to be fun to play). And she doesn't have Kayle's weaknesses. As for playing her with Ghost, I prefer it to Flash on her. Maybe that's bad, who knows. She just feels better with it to me. People can escape her too easily and Ghost's low cooldown means it's practically always up.

Now you mentioned farming. Interestingly, this is how I can get out of Bronze. I've done it with Kayle several times. Just farm up and kill everything late game. It works with Shyvana too, one of the reasons I like her as well. But the problem I face in Silver is, again, teams grouping and ending before I have farmed up enough to carry. No matter how hard I farm, when your team is dying every minute, it's really hard to outpace the enemy in gold income by just farming alone. It works great in Bronze but in Silver it's kinda stops working.

You also mention early game agency. Renekton is recent favorite for me and I can get fed in lane somewhat consistently on him because of the amount of feeding trash there is in Silver that just can't help themselves. They will just keep dying the same way over and over again. Haven't played him enough so I can't speak to how well I would do on him over the long run. I've also played Graves a couple times in the past, like a couple season back. Not really a champion I enjoyed playing to be honest. He just doesn't click with me and I just feed hard on him.

So yea, basically my problem is, I don't know what to do when my team is hardcore feeding and the enemy starts grouping early with their huge leads. This is like 95% of why Silver is so hard for me.

For the time being, I will take your advice and focus more on power farming and try to find ways to do it more efficiently.

Snowman ArcMay 25, 20181 votes

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1953885699/28842902?tab=overview There are games where you can't win. Just look at one of mine in silver 4 I believe. Some games are just unwinnable, no matter what you do. The enemy team will just stomp your own team so hard, that no matter how big of an advantage or how many outplays you do, it won't be enough. But that's like one game out of 10. Maybe even less of a chance.

Most other games, you can win. Again, the reason I advised you use Kayle is because it seems like it worked for you, and honestly, it should still work. But it's a risk you might not wanna take. As you said, she takes time to ramp up, and time is what you don't have in League. You want to have options. Do I wanna farm? Good, I can farm. Do I wanna fight? Ah, I can't, I need my items, which is why Kayle is a risky pick. She can't really change her playstyle.

You touched on Renekton as a champion with a strong early game. He indeed is strong early and you can get a lot of kills and snowball, but the thing is that he's also very one dimensional. He can farm well, but he's a melee bruiser who can't really assassinate as easily as Jarvan. It's hard to explain why Renekton is kinda hard to work, compared to Jarvan. Jarvan's damage are much more reliable, can engage from a much longer range as well and has more damage on his assassination. He also has good CC to set up things, and a lot of AoE with his R.

Renekton can easily get cockblocked by someone playing a tank top. And that's his problem; if he doesn't get a lead early, it's hard to do anything later. Since he's a melee champion, he also needs to get on top of his enemies to do his thing, which is also another problem he has. He only has 2 dashes at best, which are short, while Jarvan has 2 guaranteed ones with longer range. Jarvan is also a jungler so he can't really get cockblocked.

Graves is a whole new beast. The range advantage is enough to justify why he is so strong right now. He's a safe pick with insane farming and great dueling, burst, tankiness and DPS. I strongly suggest you pick him up, try him in bot games, see how he goes.

Also, another thing that can help you climb faster is to play jungle. Jungle has the most snowball potential, because:

you can affect the entire map, so if you're good, then you can make your allies better
the amount of how much you can beat your enemy laner (jungler) is by far bigger than what any laner can do in their lanes.

For example, a Riven top vs anything. Sure, Riven can get a kill, maybe even 2, 3, 5, I don't know. How much of a lead can she get though? Killing the same target won't bring her as much gold, while the enemy laner can just stay under tower, pick any cs they can and get XP and gold. So that's like a 1 level lead and 1,5k gold AT BEST?

Now, as a jungler, there are games where I hit level 6 when the enemy is still level 3, because of how I take advantage of where he CAN BE, so I can steal his camps to set him behind or even kill him. This small lead then translates in his whole jungle being taken by me, which, in comparison, feels like, as a laner, that you take a minion wave, but you somehow also farm YOUR OWN WAVE, seeing how the enemy jungle was supposed to be taken by the enemy.

See how much more of a big lead you can create? That's why you need to play jungle, but that takes a lot of skill and effort to know where the enemy will be, where you can go, if you can fight them 1v1 and if you have the skill to be fast at clearing and good at 1v1ing.

LetMeCarry1983Jun 3, 20181 votes

Gave Graves a try. Did ok with him and he is really strong at counter jungling. But I didn't really enjoy playing him that much and I fuck up quite often on him, more specifically, his Q. I keep trying to shoot it over walls and shit lmao. Good champion but not really my cup of tea.

Anyways, since my last post in this thread. I tried a couple other things and after many many games of frustration, I've concluded that Silver is the my cap. After 2 years of trying, I cannot get past Silver. In comparison, it took me 3 months for figure out how to climb out of Bronze. I think it's safe to say that I'm as good as I'll ever get and I've accepted that.

I'll just play to have fun and not try as hard to climb anymore. If I couldn't figure it out in 2 years and over 1000 games, I don't think I ever will and that's fine I guess. It's just a game after all. Even played a lot less over the weekend. Games aren't supposed to be this stressful.

Thanks for all your words and advice. It's good advice but I just don't have the talent to apply it as effectively as I should be.

Snowman ArcJun 3, 20181 votes

Good luck with your games and having fun in them. After all, games are there so that we can have fun. Cheers.

LetMeCarry1983May 25, 20182 votes

With regards to my response. Here is a perfect example of what I was talking about:- https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2790494776/228591326?tab=overview

You can even watch the replay on op.gg if you want:- http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=xelniya

I had a mid and top laner that fed nonstop from start to finish and they fed a Yasuo/Nasus on top of it all. No amount of power farming could save me that game. I got two games like that back to back in promos for Silver 4. My team feeds, the enemy team just groups up and press their advantage before I could do anything and I was kinda fed that game and our bot won as well. Games like this become very common from lower mid Silver. It gets worse higher up.

TheorexMay 23, 20181 votes

The thing about it though. Rank does have something to do with balance.

Lets say we introduce a champion like Invoker from Dota into League. Since this is the best way of talking about it.

If we talk about balancing it in terms of numbers. Just so he has reasonable numbers. He would be broken af. Because players that can micro there spells super hard will be god tier.

Meanwhile players that can't would be in bronze/silver/gold.

Rank isn't just a rank. It also shows something that those players are better at than the average player.

If we balance around bronze/silver/gold elo. Then mechanically difficult champions would require number buffs. No one wants to see Ryze, Zed, Yasuo, Azir, etc get number buffs to compensate for those players. Because once you get to high plat. Those champions will be the only champions you would see. Champions like Annie, Garen, Lux. Would never get any buffs.

So yes, I believe that rank also matters to how you balance a game.

If you were to make a mechanically impossible champion with a unsealed skill cap. You don't expect bronze/silver/gold players to be able to play them as effectively as plat/diamond/master/challenger players.

Now there are a bunch of people that salt complain and whine about game state.

But true people will always blow a whistle when something is broken.

I've been on that boat forever. (For Mid Lane Only. I do not possess the experience or knowledge of the other lanes or roles to assess them correctly)

Literally every single change they do to mages, assassins, and other champions that go mid. Have massive impacts. Rank + knowledge + rationality are important for balance.

I'll be honest, I don't care for what a bronze player has to say in terms of how a champion feels. They don't possess the ability to utilize the champion to the same degree as other players. They are bronze for a reason.

I will value a Plat players thoughts on a champion over that of a gold + a silver + a bronze.

On that note though. I wouldn't ignore the bronze, silver, or gold player. Because they too are players. But in terms of how something feels. The better mechanical players have better insight. Gold, Silver, and Bronze players are good for evaluating how the champion will perform in lower elos.

Balance should come from a middle ground between pro play and solo queue.

That is why I am a solid believer that the game should be balanced around p1- d1. That is still a big percentage of players.

DragfinMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The thing about it though. Rank does have something to do with balance.

Lets say we introduce a champion like Invoker from Dota into League. Since this is the best way of talking about it.

If we talk about balancing it in terms of numbers. Just so he has reasonable numbers. He would be broken af. Because players that can micro there spells super hard will be god tier.

Meanwhile players that can't would be in bronze/silver/gold.

Rank isn't just a rank. It also shows something that those players are better at than the average player.

If we balance around bronze/silver/gold elo. Then mechanically difficult champions would require number buffs. No one wants to see Ryze, Zed, Yasuo, Azir, etc get number buffs to compensate for those players. Because once you get to high plat. Those champions will be the only champions you would see. Champions like Annie, Garen, Lux. Would never get any buffs.

So yes, I believe that rank also matters to how you balance a game.

If you were to make a mechanically impossible champion with a unsealed skill cap. You don't expect bronze/silver/gold players to be able to play them as effectively as plat/diamond/master/challenger players.

Now there are a bunch of people that salt complain and whine about game state.

But true people will always blow a whistle when something is broken.

I've been on that boat forever. (For Mid Lane Only. I do not possess the experience or knowledge of the other lanes or roles to assess them correctly)

Literally every single change they do to mages, assassins, and other champions that go mid. Have massive impacts. Rank + knowledge + rationality are important for balance.

I'll be honest, I don't care for what a bronze player has to say in terms of how a champion feels. They don't possess the ability to utilize the champion to the same degree as other players. They are bronze for a reason.

I will value a Plat players thoughts on a champion over that of a gold + a silver + a bronze.

On that note though. I wouldn't ignore the bronze, silver, or gold player. Because they too are players. But in terms of how something feels. The better mechanical players have better insight. Gold, Silver, and Bronze players are good for evaluating how the champion will perform in lower elos.

Balance should come from a middle ground between pro play and solo queue.

That is why I am a solid believer that the game should be balanced around p1- d1. That is still a big percentage of players.

Like I said, the game is balanced around team play. It has nothing to do with rank. The champions have the capability to interact the same way at every rank. Just because someone at bronze don't understand that don't make it false. Gaining knowledge of that interaction is how you rank up. Those that understand how to work with their team or use their team effectively rank up. Those that do not understand that remain in low elo.

TheorexMay 24, 20181 votes

The problem is, that if you balance around a team.

How the hell am I suppose to communicate on the same level as a team without riot giving us the proper systems and abilities. Because if we put a team with voice comms together and compare a team without voice comms. I bet the difference is massive.

If you are going to balance around something, make it managable for 99.99% of the player base.

Team play is nice, but doesn't happen in solo queue until you get to the top of the ladder.

And even then, if you look at NA team play. Its still shitty. It is awful even at the top of the ladder. They don't punish or capitalize on mistakes. Its just a game of mechanics up there. If NA servers were based around team play. Then blade's akali wouldn't have been #1. It would have been team oriented champions that would have had the higher win rates. (But to be fair, Akali is fucking broken).

DragfinMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The problem is, that if you balance around a team.

How the hell am I suppose to communicate on the same level as a team without riot giving us the proper systems and abilities. Because if we put a team with voice comms together and compare a team without voice comms. I bet the difference is massive.

If you are going to balance around something, make it managable for 99.99% of the player base.

Team play is nice, but doesn't happen in solo queue until you get to the top of the ladder.

And even then, if you look at NA team play. Its still shitty. It is awful even at the top of the ladder. They don't punish or capitalize on mistakes. Its just a game of mechanics up there. If NA servers were based around team play. Then blade's akali wouldn't have been #1. It would have been team oriented champions that would have had the higher win rates. (But to be fair, Akali is fucking broken).

How is that RIOT's problem? The problem is the player base and their total disregard for playing the game outside the realm of how it's designed. It's a team game. If people would treat it as such then you wouldn't have the problems you listed. Too many try and carry alone. Even those that do carry games don't do it alone. They use their team to do it.

TheorexMay 24, 20181 votes

How do I tell everyone that the second that X player steps into my range in the middle of a stand off I am going to flash R (as malzahar) without having to spend 3 seconds to type it out.

That is the advantage.

In 3 seconds in a standoff, a fuck ton of things can happen.

From someone's misposition, to a tank flash engages, to a person goes ape shit crazy and tries something to break the stand off, to everyone backing off.

If you don't think so, then you haven't had enough stand offs. That is always what happened when a standoff occurs. It takes a few seconds for me to type something, while still being in a safe spot. Then I have to reposition to be in a good spot for DPSing and being safe. Taking a few seconds to do anything in league is bad.

That is why jungle pathing is always optimized. Because its a bad to take more than a few seconds to think about the next step. If you have everything preplanned it normally goes that way.

Yes the SECOND problem I mentioned is that NA is just a bunch of solo queue players. They don't play like a team. Nothing Riot can do about that. But they can do something about the first problem, called adding voice comms into the game for solo queue.

DotA, CS:GO, OW, and a plethora of other games have it. And we can't even say that those games aren't as big.

DotA is a similar style game.

CS:GO has had Voice since before CS:GO was even CS:GO.

And heres the thing about voice comms. You can mute a player. You can do it in dota, you can do it in CS:GO, you can do it in OW. It would literally be like playing league like it is now.

You don't have to use it. It makes it easier for shotcallers to organize a team. Which is know there isn't a bunch of those in Solo Queue.

The fact that Riot is that scared of Toxicity to not add in a fundamental game mechanic to a massively online battle arena is depressing.

They would rather protect a few peoples feelings than give everyone a better game experience.

DragfinMay 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

How do I tell everyone that the second that X player steps into my range in the middle of a stand off I am going to flash R (as malzahar) without having to spend 3 seconds to type it out.

That is the advantage.

In 3 seconds in a standoff, a fuck ton of things can happen.

From someone's misposition, to a tank flash engages, to a person goes ape shit crazy and tries something to break the stand off, to everyone backing off.

If you don't think so, then you haven't had enough stand offs. That is always what happened when a standoff occurs. It takes a few seconds for me to type something, while still being in a safe spot. Then I have to reposition to be in a good spot for DPSing and being safe. Taking a few seconds to do anything in league is bad.

That is why jungle pathing is always optimized. Because its a bad to take more than a few seconds to think about the next step. If you have everything preplanned it normally goes that way.

Yes the SECOND problem I mentioned is that NA is just a bunch of solo queue players. They don't play like a team. Nothing Riot can do about that. But they can do something about the first problem, called adding voice comms into the game for solo queue.

DotA, CS:GO, OW, and a plethora of other games have it. And we can't even say that those games aren't as big.

DotA is a similar style game.

CS:GO has had Voice since before CS:GO was even CS:GO.

And heres the thing about voice comms. You can mute a player. You can do it in dota, you can do it in CS:GO, you can do it in OW. It would literally be like playing league like it is now.

You don't have to use it. It makes it easier for shotcallers to organize a team. Which is know there isn't a bunch of those in Solo Queue.

The fact that Riot is that scared of Toxicity to not add in a fundamental game mechanic to a massively online battle arena is depressing.

They would rather protect a few peoples feelings than give everyone a better game experience.

Nothing you said has anything to do with game balance.

TheorexMay 24, 20182 votes

Voice comms on a pro level have a fuck ton to do with game balance. It almost fully eliminates the delay time/ reaction time someone has when someone else on their team does something. Example Malzahar Flash R.

In solo queue it takes .5 seconds for most people to react accordingly without it being fully preplanned.

In pro play, its just a matter of "Go on X" then Malzahar flash R's. The difference is insane.

Voice comms are extremely essential to balance since Riot balances around the top more often. The fact that players do not get the same system is an issue when it comes to balancing.

Look at Ryze and Azir. They are very strong champions in pro play. Both of which have strong ultis and require a fuck ton of communication to pull off properly. Azir has a second or two at best to do his thing and have his team be ready for it.

So yes voice comms are important when it comes to balance.

EddardStark84May 24, 20181 votes

Uhh, yes it did? Voice comms are a HUGE (if not THE biggest) difference maker in the balance between pro level and non pro level games.

DragfinMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Uhh, yes it did? Voice comms are a HUGE (if not THE biggest) difference maker in the balance between pro level and non pro level games.

Let me put it this way...

There are tons of voice comms out there.

Those that wish to use them, do so.

Those that do not use them, won't.

It has not one damn thing to do with RIOT or balance.

EddardStark84May 24, 20181 votes

Except that because it's NOT a CORE part of the league client by itself, not very many people will go that extra step to enable it. There's a reason it's used in other games, because it's there and on by default.

And what do you mean nothing Riot can do about it? What in the fuck. Riot is the ONLY one that CAN change this by enabling it by default like EVERY other online (competitive) game in existence. I'm not sure you are clear on what is going on here sir.

DragfinMay 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Except that because it's NOT a CORE part of the league client by itself, not very many people will go that extra step to enable it. There's a reason it's used in other games, because it's there and on by default.

And what do you mean nothing Riot can do about it? What in the fuck. Riot is the ONLY one that CAN change this by enabling it by default like EVERY other online (competitive) game in existence. I'm not sure you are clear on what is going on here sir.

VOICE COMMS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAME BALANCE.

DerMangoJoghurtMay 23, 20184 votes

Sorry, I'm not reading that all. Can I assume the tl;dr is "The game should be balanced for every level of play and therefore every opinion is valid."?

Shazzbot69May 23, 201811 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I'm not reading that all. Can I assume the tl;dr is "The game should be balanced for every level of play and therefore every opinion is valid."?

no, this is game should not be balanced around idiots who just want to win. I htink, I only skimmed it

IP MasquerenaMay 23, 20183 votes

More or less this.

We all want to win, but we must understand that losing is part of the process, and if we want to get better, we need to think outside the box, which Riot also actively seems to enforce with the last few patches (scuttle changes anyone?).

Many low elo players want to do the same thing on the same Yi with the same build every game and win, and if Riot doesn't support that type of play with a patch, they cry that the game is broken and imbalanced.

Tho I do hope you will give it a full read, I did work a bit to try and make that, so it would be nice if you read it.

IfnethMay 23, 20184 votes

It’s not a good idea to use player statistics below Plat to balance the game because Bronze, Silver, and even high Gold players are not consistent enough to use their champions to essentially the fullest and follow the meta closely.

However, the effects of balance or design decisions on “low elo,” which comprises the vast majority of the playerbase, should nonetheless be considered. A game like League is best when easy to learn but hard to master, attracting players across the skill range and large audiences for competitions.

This ideal makes designing champions harder. The design team must be careful not to design “stage queens” who cannot function outside a competitive environment or “pub stompers” who can only exploit flaws in enemy mentality or coordination. They are getting better about that.

Kayn, for example, doesn’t have a strong early game, snowballing midgame, and weak lategame like older assassins do. Instead, he has a weak early game, a strong midgame, and a mediocre late game. He reaches his powerspike whether he made early plays or not, and then that powerspike ends. This is healthy design.

MariusThdiMay 23, 20182 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDwellerMay 23, 20185 votes

Correlation does not equal causation. High rank players are good at the game, but they aren't good at the game because they are high rank. They are good at the game because they have game knowledge and mechanical skills, and teamwork skills, and self-control, etc. Plenty of low elo players have some or all of the same skills, but simply have a few shortcomings that keep them from climbing, or perhaps they don't have the time to devote to ranked.

In summary - Being good at the game is not a result of being high rank, being good at the game is a result of personal skill and knowledge. There are people who have the skill and knowledge necessary to make fair judgements about balance who don't play ranked, and simply discounting their opinions because they "don't know what they are talking about" is complete bullshit.

Also up yours for calling everyone on NA fat and ugly. But I guess its not really surprising you would think that since you already subscribe to other stereotypes like "low elo."

MariusThdiMay 23, 20181 votes

[deleted]

IP MasquerenaMay 23, 20182 votes

Keep it civilized please. No need to make insults.

HalcyonDwellerMay 23, 20186 votes

All cats are mammals,
dogs are mammals,
all dogs are cats.

This is how your logic do.

That's humor by the way, if you don't get the reference go look up "zefrank1 true facts" on youtube.

I could easily say what you said about NA citizens but instead make it about all Western Europeans. It would be just as wrong as what you said about NA.

You're so full of shit it's dribbling out your ears. Stop spreading hate and stereotypes.

Self-edited to remove quoting of the hateful idiocy that was said before.

EkitaihMay 23, 20182 votes

I don't know. I feel like an understanding of the game versus performance in said game are two completely different ideas and shouldn't be expressed as the same thing. Let's take, for instance, Toru Iwatani, the man who created Pac Man. If we use the premise that "You must be good at the game to be able to express thoughts... Yada yada yada." Then shouldn't Toru Iwatani be an expert at the game? I mean, he should consistently get the highest score, correct? Who is to say that just because you aren't good at a game, you shouldn't be allowed to adjust said game? Should that mean that every game developer should, say, be expert players? A 17 year old kid is currently among the challenger ranks, probably many others. Should we take his opinion over someone who went to college for probably 6+ years, has a masters or a Doctorate? Knowledge>performance any day, IMO.

IP MasquerenaMay 23, 20181 votes

That depends solely on context.

Let's that the guy who went to college for 6 years and a doctorate in....say maths, vs the 17 yo challenger:

If it's LoL things, the 17 yo has more say in the matter due to him knowing the game much better than the guy with the doctorate.
if it's maths, then the guy with the doctorate has more say in the matter.

It's just a thing of context. You can have a doctorate in IT, but be a bronze in LoL. You are good with the pc and stuff, but in terms of game knowledge and understanding, you are sub par, so what you say doesn't really matter.

As long as both the knowledge and the performance are on the same topic, they have different values of right or wrong.

Knowledge is usually more important than performance because you know knowledge in order to be good and perform well, but that falls on it's head at lower elos, in Bronze 5 for example (yea, I played there as well) as long as you can farm propperly, you win, because most people there have no idea how to farm, so you have more gold and more items, in that case, performance beats knowledge because everyone is equally dumb, which is another point on the "why we shouldn't take too much consideration of low elo in terms of balance" list.

But if the 2 topics are different, say knowledge in math and performance in sports, then you can't compare, making your point invalid.

EkitaihMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That depends solely on context.

Let's that the guy who went to college for 6 years and a doctorate in....say maths, vs the 17 yo challenger:

If it's LoL things, the 17 yo has more say in the matter due to him knowing the game much better than the guy with the doctorate.

if it's maths, then the guy with the doctorate has more say in the matter.

It's just a thing of context. You can have a doctorate in IT, but be a bronze in LoL. You are good with the pc and stuff, but in terms of game knowledge and understanding, you are sub par, so what you say doesn't really matter.

As long as both the knowledge and the performance are on the same topic, they have different values of right or wrong.

Knowledge is usually more important than performance because you know knowledge in order to be good and perform well, but that falls on it's head at lower elos, in Bronze 5 for example (yea, I played there as well) as long as you can farm propperly, you win, because most people there have no idea how to farm, so you have more gold and more items, in that case, performance beats knowledge because everyone is equally dumb, which is another point on the "why we shouldn't take too much consideration of low elo in terms of balance" list.

But if the 2 topics are different, say knowledge in math and performance in sports, then you can't compare, making your point invalid.

What I was referring to, in my comment about college, was the countless members on the balance team. They likely have much more college experience than, say, a 17 year old who happens to be in challenge. Regardless of how well you play the game, the knowledge for BALANCING is more important than being good at the game. The argument isn't invalid because the comparison applies. Someone who went to school to be a part of Riot's balance team could be terrible at games but have great knowledge of the game. The knowledge is there. Rank does not matter for balancing. People who are higher elo should not be a know-all, say-all for the game. Just because someone is good at the game doesn't mean they know how to make a game. Doesn't mean they know what's best for the game. That's my argument. Understanding and performance do not fall hand in hand. A lot of people assume that being good at the game means you should dictate what's done to said game, but it's illogical.

Shazzbot69May 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

What I was referring to, in my comment about college, was the countless members on the balance team. They likely have much more college experience than, say, a 17 year old who happens to be in challenge. Regardless of how well you play the game, the knowledge for BALANCING is more important than being good at the game. The argument isn't invalid because the comparison applies. Someone who went to school to be a part of Riot's balance team could be terrible at games but have great knowledge of the game. The knowledge is there. Rank does not matter for balancing. People who are higher elo should not be a know-all, say-all for the game. Just because someone is good at the game doesn't mean they know how to make a game. Doesn't mean they know what's best for the game. That's my argument. Understanding and performance do not fall hand in hand. A lot of people assume that being good at the game means you should dictate what's done to said game, but it's illogical.

how can one get knowledge of balance without being good at the game?[sg-lux-2]

IP MasquerenaMay 23, 20181 votes

Beats me, but I'll try one last time to explain it to him

Shazzbot69May 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Beats me, but I'll try one last time to explain it to him

just one of life's mysteries

EkitaihMay 23, 20183 votes

{quoted}

how can one get knowledge of balance without being good at the game?[sg-lux-2]

Balance is about numbers, it's not about performance. Let's use this as a morbid example: Would you say that an physically disabled person couldn't possibly speak to the balance because he isn't capable for performing well in the game? Even if he has all the knowledge? Some people have great reflexes, meaning it's easier for them to play better than someone who doesn't have quite as good reflexes. Should those who aren't capable of performing complex combinations not be allowed to balance the game? Even if they have all the knowledge, went to school to do just such a task? The person who dedicates his/her time to playing the game vs. the person who dedicates his/her time to fixing the game... Who should we listen to? I would like any one challenger to give me raw numbers about how the game should be balanced. Not "this person should do less damage, this person should do more" I want actual mathematical equations. Tell me why "this person should do less damage, this person should do more." When they can do that, then maybe I'll be more inclined to listen to them. Rank is not the only thing that matters. That's all that anyone can see, though.

Shazzbot69May 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Balance is about numbers, it's not about performance. Let's use this as a morbid example: Would you say that an physically disabled person couldn't possibly speak to the balance because he isn't capable for performing well in the game? Even if he has all the knowledge? Some people have great reflexes, meaning it's easier for them to play better than someone who doesn't have quite as good reflexes. Should those who aren't capable of performing complex combinations not be allowed to balance the game? Even if they have all the knowledge, went to school to do just such a task? The person who dedicates his/her time to playing the game vs. the person who dedicates his/her time to fixing the game... Who should we listen to? I would like any one challenger to give me raw numbers about how the game should be balanced. Not "this person should do less damage, this person should do more" I want actual mathematical equations. Tell me why "this person should do less damage, this person should do more." When they can do that, then maybe I'll be more inclined to listen to them. Rank is not the only thing that matters. That's all that anyone can see, though.

what you're saying is like saying a nerd that reads books all day can beat a jock in football just because the nerd technically has more knowledge about football and read more about tactics and shit than the jock, never mind that the nerd in this example cannot even execute any of the tactics and knowledge he read about because he is physically incapable of doing so. League is more than just numbers and balancing around based on numbers is pure stupidity. What you're saying is in all honesty like the people complaining about how unbalanced dota 2 is just by looking at the numbers. Sure rank is not the only thing that matters, but skill is. If you are gonna tell me that a low rank has more game knowledge, then you better be able to prove it. Until there is another way to indicate skill, rank is all we have to go on.

EkitaihMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

what you're saying is like saying a nerd that reads books all day can beat a jock in football just because the nerd technically has more knowledge about football and read more about tactics and shit than the jock, never mind that the nerd in this example cannot even execute any of the tactics and knowledge he read about because he is physically incapable of doing so. League is more than just numbers and balancing around based on numbers is pure stupidity. What you're saying is in all honesty like the people complaining about how unbalanced dota 2 is just by looking at the numbers. Sure rank is not the only thing that matters, but skill is. If you are gonna tell me that a low rank has more game knowledge, then you better be able to prove it. Until there is another way to indicate skill, rank is all we have to go on.

I'm actually implying the opposite. Performance is NOT important when it comes to knowledge. I never implied that they were better at the game, I implied that they would be more inclined to make better judgement calls about said game. But in your attempt to foil me, you bring up a good point. How many of those coaches on the football team could outplay any of those players? None? Yet, they make the decisions, they come up with the plays, and they can even win games. Is it because of their performance? Or is it because of their knowledge?

Shazzbot69May 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually implying the opposite. Performance is NOT important when it comes to knowledge. I never implied that they were better at the game, I implied that they would be more inclined to make better judgement calls about said game. But in your attempt to foil me, you bring up a good point. How many of those coaches on the football team could outplay any of those players? None? Yet, they make the decisions, they come up with the plays, and they can even win games. Is it because of their performance? Or is it because of their knowledge?

So are you saying that a team is successful just because they have a good coach? If you were to bet on sports teams, would you just purely base your bet on which team has the best coach, ignoring how well the players work with each other, ignoring how good the players are at the game?

In league terms, are you saying that azir needs a buff, even though he is one of the most predominate mid laners in pro games?

IP MasquerenaMay 23, 20181 votes

Except that he forgets that almost all, if not all, the all the coaches are ex pros from whichever game they are coaching.

Some can't perform now because of their age, others because of health issues or accidents, etc. But if you'd place a coach in his prime vs a player who he's coaching in his prime, well, the coach will give him a run for his money. But hey, to each his own.

EkitaihMay 23, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Except that he forgets that almost all, if not all, the all the coaches are ex pros from whichever game they are coaching.

Some can't perform now because of their age, others because of health issues or accidents, etc. But if you'd place a coach in his prime vs a player who he's coaching in his prime, well, the coach will give him a run for his money. But hey, to each his own.

Bill Belichick - coach to one of the best teams in the NFL, currently, the Patriots. Considered one of the best coaches in the NFL, never played professional football. Mike Tomlin - Coach to the Steelers. Been in the post season eight of the eleven years he's coached. Been to the Super Bowl twice. One win, one loss. Never played professional football. John Harbaugh - Coach to the Baltimore Ravens. One superbowl win under his belt. Been to post season 6/10 of his years as head. Never played professional football. Marvin Lewis - Most wins as head coach to Cincinnati Bengals. Never played professional football. Need I go on? Most have only played in college and never professionally. A lot of the ones that did play professionally didn't do that great. There are few "Ex-Pros" that coach. So no, your statement is incorrect. They are not ex pros. They went to school to COACH. http://thecoachingjourney.org/blog/the-ex-pro-myth-in-modern-coaching Read this. I'm not always great at expressing my view. But this applies to the argument at hand, and they are much better at expression than I am.