Have you ever wondered why ADCs are in a duo lane and the others are solo lanes?

Eedat·Dec 23, 2016·93 votes·5,621 views

No, its not because "ADCs are weak and need to be protected".

Its because ADCs scale the best with just gold. They are less reliant on XP and more reliant on items. Don't get me wrong, its not like they dont scale at all with levels, but they scale the best without them. ADC's gold reliance is also why the support role traditionally lanes with them, but doesn't take any farm. ADCs can afford to lose some XP as long as their gold income isn't hindered.

Bruisers and tanks, on the other hand, rely much more heavily on base damages. This is why they are more reliant on XP to scale. This is why top lane is a solo lane. They can't afford to be underleveled.

Mages ended up mid because they tend to be better at roaming, so it makes sense to put them in the middle. They also scale better than ADCs with levels as well.

So no, its not a just a coincidence that the roles ended up where they are. It makes perfect sense if you think about it.

96 Comments

ScissorsNstuffDec 23, 201628 votes

2 go bot because adcs are also good at sieging and taking objectives as long as they have assistance and protection. This means dragon is that much safer.

Efficient wave clear is important in mid which is the shortest lane. It allows you the time to go anywhere in the map for any reason even if it isn't a gank.

People often wine about how ap does less than AD but AP tends to have more AoE damage so you have ot consider how strong their scaling really is.

Touch My BoxDec 24, 20168 votes

{quoted}

2 go bot because adcs are also good at sieging and taking objectives as long as they have assistance and protection. This means dragon is that much safer.

Efficient wave clear is important in mid which is the shortest lane. It allows you the time to go anywhere in the map for any reason even if it isn't a gank.

People often wine about how ap does less than AD but AP tends to have more AoE damage so you have ot consider how strong their scaling really is.

item 3085

ScissorsNstuffDec 24, 20169 votes

ap still does it better and with more burst, and tends to do it in safer circumstances

MaizieaDec 24, 20165 votes

Jinx item 3085 Does better than most ap IMO, not all of course. Big difference is that it takes longer to get to this point than it does with an AP champion. (Also needs a bit more than just hurricane item 3031 item 3094 item 3072 item 3036 not much that beats this when it comes to waveclear though :P

Spaceman5pffDec 24, 20162 votes

Sivir Tristana

DessemDec 24, 20164 votes

Viktor "Heh, waveclear."

Mighty MorteinDec 25, 20162 votes

Cassiopeia and Anivia are calling :P Try pushing effectively against a fed one of these also.

MaizieaDec 27, 20161 votes

Sivir, yea definitely just don't really like her a lot personally, but you're right either way. Tristana? no, not compared to the rockets from Jinx combined with hurricane.

Spaceman5pffDec 27, 20161 votes

Fair point on trist.

OdinakosDec 24, 20163 votes

To be technical, Lux with ult less than 30s cd, can do it best. Instaclear from 5 screens away.

MaizieaDec 27, 20161 votes

The reason I think lategame adc's like Jinx are better for it is because of

Lux with ult less than 30s cd

Yes Lux and other AP champions definitely better at holding one wave and then wait for cooldowns, but an ADC like jinx can clear the wave before it hits the tower easily with small risk of getting caught over and over, and then once a fight does happen they are ready to go. Other adc's or AP champions usually have cooldowns on their waveclear, which they also need in fights, if you want both then I think adc's are better for the job.

But most of that is just personal preference I guess.

OdinakosDec 28, 20161 votes

APs have noticable better waveclear even at lategame. Also you gonna need waveclear when the pressure starts which is far earlier than lategame. The difference beween having safe good waveclear and not, is some crusial for midgame towers.

About cds, usually its too low to matter that much. Count in that there gonna be a couple seconds until teamfight is fully engaged. And that its less likely to happen because aps can do it safer. So thought its an advandage for adcs, its not as major as instaclears and safety from the waveclear aps.

That doesnt go without admiting that adcs are good enouph to sub for waveclear. Jinx is clear second among adcs behind Sivir that can go up to aps. Ashe, Cait and Trist are also decent options. And if mid has no decent waveclear, its up to those to pick up the slack.

TeCoolMageDec 24, 20162 votes

ADCs have multiplicative damage to make up for it though, here's some numbers:

AD with AS with crit chance with crit damage with on hit

Assuming ADCs end with as much AD as half of an AP carry's AP (and this is slowly becoming less and less true due to AP reductions from items)

250% crit with 100% crit chance -> 100% AD DPS becomes 250% AD DPS

2.5 AS makes this 625% AD DPS

Add in runaan's DPS (1.5x DPS increase assuming there are 2 other people nearby), 937.5% AD DPS

Let's use an AoE mage with consistent DPS as an example, Anivia does 37.5% AP DPS on a single target, with the above assumption that is equivalent to 75% AD DPS. Assuming 5 people are constantly in its AoE, 375% AD DPS. Add in E empowered, 100% AP per 2~ seconds assuming max CDR, so 50% AP or 100% AD DPS from E. 390 DPS in base.

That's 390 + 475% AD DPS compared to 937.5% AD DPS,

So if a 6 item build with full AS, crit chance and IE with no on-hit damage has at least 85 AD, it beats an AP+40% CDR equivalent build with double the amount of AD from an ADC build (so 85 AD vs 170 AP they're even, 60 AD vs 120 AP, AP wins, 100 AD vs 200 AP, AD wins).

I assume the average is 600 AP in a full CDR AP build and 300 AD in a full ADC stats build, so in terms of DPS ADCs outscale AP mages hard even with the assumption that a champion like Anivia keeps 5 people in her ult at all times, and that an ADC has 2 people beside the main target at all times.

With single target damage, ADCs outright win against pretty much anyone

ScissorsNstuffDec 24, 20161 votes

Anivia controls where you fight and subjects you to all damage from allies with 3 different control abilities. Heil the furher, no fun allowed! Even if you attack her, her passive can negate much of what you do making diving for her a very costly tactic.

Ashe Caitlyn Corki Draven Graves Jhin Jinx Lucian

can barely hold their own, have little control, they tend to have more burst but much of it is single target.. actually almost all of it is single target. None of this random collection has meaningful aoe spam with good range and the kit to actually use it except for Jinx and Graves but neither can compare to anivia who actually has the kit to use hers in a much larger variety of situations.

Anivia isn't even a burst mage and is more likely to do better AoE lockdown massacre when it actually counts than any marksman ever will in a real world scenario. Then you have champs like Ziggs Azir Cassiopeia Kennen Karma Taliyah Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Xerath Karthus

ADCs will eventually surpass the damage of mages, but they do consistent damage which is the same reason that tanks will do the same up until a point

TeCoolMageDec 25, 20161 votes

And as my comment said, these calculations are made with the assumption that she has 5 people in her ult constantly - she does less damage of course, due to trading it for utility, I'm not saying she's bad, I'm an Anivia main.

I'm saying that her damage, even considering the fact it hits more targets, is always going to be worse as hyper carry / late game AP tend to be different from hyper carry / late game ADCs in how they carry, the latest game mage will never beat the earliest game ADC in end game DPS. A late game ADC is late game because of damage - a late game mage is late game because they have utility that works in a late game situation (So champs with unreliable or single target CC like Fiddle/LeBlanc have bad late game).

DPS mages with low utility like Cassiopeia, Karthus or AP Kog'Maw need spammable damage and even then they're not as good as ADCs in raw power, they're just secondary outputs of DPS that have their late game as a form of low support reliance and the ability to be aggressive without as much focus as the rest of the back line

(btw ashe and tristana are both THE AoE ADCs, that's their niche: Ashe AoE pokes before a team fight before going in with slightly less front loaded damage than the rest of the cast, Tristana is meant to get rocket jump resets and deal a lot of damage to everyone.)

AhristocatsDec 23, 20169 votes

Yasuo doesn't need lvl Gangplank doesn't need lvl, infact after triforce+IE he starts to destroy teams if they walk into barrels MasterYi is THE gold reliant champion by default Jax same here

see a pathern? every AA reliant champions don't need lvls, on the other hand

Vayne needs asap her Q lvl 5 to oneshot people, and having rank 5 tumble also reduces the cd from 6 to 1.5 second Jhin needs lvl asap to increase his damage ability and his %AD conversion that scales with lvl oh and 25% missing hp damage at lvl 16 or 13 i don't remember Tristana needs lvl 18 asap to get her passive range Corki Varus need lvl Lucian needs lvl 13 to have his dash on 2 seconds cd Jinx needs lvl 9 to get her range increased to 700 and more with her rank 5 Q

see how dumb is this thread?

dunder killDec 23, 201624 votes

see a pathern? every AA reliant champions don't need lvls

But ADCs are THE auto attack reliant champs.....

GrReaper96Dec 24, 20164 votes

Well to be fair yi and jax are better of jungle, yasuo was supposed to be mid and gp has bonus gold

BooleansDec 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well to be fair yi and jax are better of jungle, yasuo was supposed to be mid and gp has bonus gold

Yasuo was designed as a botlaner. Anti poke wind wall, shield to win trades when he goes in and out, scales hard off attack speed and crit, low CD dash to hit and run against ranged champions. Ever wonder why yasuo always performs better against ranged champions rather than melees? Let's just say mordekaiser was certainlyT's second attempt at a melee botlaner.

GrReaper96Dec 24, 20161 votes

Everything you stated is why he works better midlane. The point is his shield and windwall both have cdr. Againts a ranged dps tht wouldnt do much since they give continuous damage. But againts a midlane who throws spells that waste mana and have cdr, its the perfect counter. Even when release Rito specificly said Yasuo was supposed to be a midlaner.

PermabannedGarenDec 24, 20164 votes

{quoted}

No, its not because "ADCs are weak and need to be protected".

Its because ADCs scale the best with just gold. They are less reliant on XP and more reliant on items. Don't get me wrong, its not like they dont scale at all with levels, but they scale the best without them. ADC's gold reliance is also why the support role traditionally lanes with them, but doesn't take any farm. ADCs can afford to lose some XP as long as their gold income isn't hindered.

Bruisers and tanks, on the other hand, rely much more heavily on base damages. This is why they are more reliant on XP to scale. This is why top lane is a solo lane. They can't afford to be underleveled.

Mages ended up mid because they tend to be better at roaming, so it makes sense to put them in the middle. They also scale better than ADCs with levels as well.

So no, its not a just a coincidence that the roles ended up where they are. It makes perfect sense if you think about it.

You're partially right, but it's not really base damages that make bottom lane the ranged ADC lane.

Yasuo has very little in the way of base damages in his kit, but still doesn't go bottom lane very often, despite actually having the means to fight against ADCs in lane. His damage also scales heavily with items.

So why doesn't he go bottom lane?

It's simple.

His durability scales with level. ADC durability also scales with level, but while an ADC can rely on a team to peel for and protect them, Yasuo has to get within melee range of an enemy Fizz that's higher level of him to damage him, for example.

LeetriDec 23, 20162 votes

And that's how EU won the first championship, they figured this out while NA was still using the sub-optimal mage top, ADC mid, and bruiser and support bot strategy. I've never found an explanation for WHY the old meta was the way it was, I started playing at the start of S2, so if someone could fill me in on that I'd really appreciate it.

SociopathFriendDec 24, 20163 votes

I don't know about WHY the old meta was that way but I can guess.

Shortest route to the enemy base and the best person at taking objectives should go in it. Mage goes top because they can waveclear and stay safe. Bruiser goes bot with a Support because they're not ranged and need the babysitter.

Spaceman5pffDec 24, 20161 votes

Mage top: Mages need levels to scale + can farm with relative safety in a long lane due to having great range. But since they don't come online power-wise for a while, you can just leave them far from the action earlygame. As damage carries they want all the scaling resources (gold + XP) they can get so put them solo, solo + late spike = toplane.

ADC Mid, vulnerable to ganks, so put them in a short lane where they are always closer to the tower. They are a damage carry so put them alone so they get maximum scaling resources. they are good at taking objectives and mid gives them great access to objectives. Gank safety + solo + objective presence = mid.

Obviously this changed, but so has the game.

Fondling GemsDec 24, 20162 votes

It was because a meta hadn't been cemented at that point. Think about when new champions come out and people play them in all different kinds of roles. Jhin mid was really big when he first came out, to the point where it was being played at high elo. It takes time for people to pick up on new strategies.

Also if a bunch of people start playing something that works decently, even if there is a better way that people don't know about they are less likely to find it because people will keep doing the same thing that works. When everyone plays mage top adc mid bruiser sup bot then it takes all 4 of those players changing position and consistently playing in the better combination to discover that it works better, and that has a very low chance of happening.

On top of that League was a lot smaller then so there was less raw data coming in. The chances of people playing in the same positions as current would have been much lower due to the much smaller playerbase.

It comes down to a good chunk of players doing one thing and everyone else following along because they believed it was the best strategy. It took a region that happened to have discovered a more optimal strategy early in the experience winning a major tournament to open people's eyes.

As for why NA happened to fall into they play pattern they did I suspect it was a lot of the early players going "here is the champion I want to play, now what lane is open? Ok, I want to play Lux and top is open? Done. What is that, I won? Now I am always going to play Lux top because it seems to work well."

As players succeed in their roles other people follow along because no one knows what they are doing, there aren't any guides, so people see a boards post about a guy on a 4 win streak with Lux top and follow along. A new mage comes and and they go, "Well lux top works, lets play X mage top too."

Ariel the CruelDec 24, 20161 votes

I remember when Clairvoyance was considered valuable so you could see who was going to what lane. XD

I've never found an explanation for WHY the old meta was the way it was

The purpose of that set-up was to optimize the 2 carry roles. Mid is the shortest lane and was reasonably safe with wards. ADC's went there to farm and siege turret. Mages generally had the best range and a bit of CC to escape ganks, so they got the longer lane. Both mid and top got farm and levels. Tank and support where seen as less valuable and grouped into a less optimized position. Bot lane controlled dragon, which is why it has always favored a duo lane. However, the NA meta favored a roaming support, so they were often responsible for both bot and mid. Jungler hasn't changed much.

The EU meta focused on optimizing the entire team, instead of just the carries. Tanks had a lot of durability, strong base stats, and some CC to survive ganks and support leveling. They were also still seen as less valuable than mages. So they went top. Mages moved mid as a matter of progression, since they scaled harder with levels than gold. ADC's scale more on gold than levels, so they got put into the duo lane. Supports were still the short stick, and laned with the ADC. Duo lane still went bot for dragon control. Jungle hasn't changed much.

The difference between the two ultimately came down to this: NA: the ADC was ahead in levels. EU: the tank (and sometimes support) was ahead in levels and ADC's were still about the same strength.

PlacentasDec 24, 20161 votes

Cool info, are you a Season 1 player?

Ariel the CruelDec 24, 20161 votes

Yes.

Z StatisticDec 24, 20162 votes

Duo is bot because dragon is bot. Duo is ADC + support because gold is best shoveled onto one instead of split, and ADC scale best with gold where supports need virtually none.

There really is no other reason for the bot meta.

the Anarchit3chtDec 24, 20162 votes

Supports need gold just as much as anyone, but they are supposed to sacrifice so that their ADC can get more because there are only 4 sources of income on the map--the 3 lanes and the jungle. That's why get gold income items to alleviate this. They can't make them give TOO much gold or they would be attractive enough to be picked up by other positions even if to only be sold later.

TeCoolMageDec 24, 20161 votes

the gold is shoveled onto one in all lanes. This explanation doesn't at all explain why champions with high map pressure and roaming like Ahri don't go bot to pressure dragon more than in mid

Z StatisticDec 24, 20161 votes

They do...

Mid lane is expected to roam bot first. Top gets TP in order to gank bot. Jungle concentrates on bot. Why? Because there are two gold sacks ready to be killed in a 4 man gank.

If you're asking why doesn't Ahri go bot in the duo comp, it's because she doesn't scale as hard with gold. Karthus would be a better pick, and even he doesn't scale as hard as an ADC.

TeCoolMageDec 24, 20161 votes

Still doesn't make any sense. I can send the support and ADC mid/top and have the mage roam to mid, jungle to concentrate on mid, and tank to tp to gank mid.

And again, solo lanes get as much gold as the ADC in a duo lane. The only difference is in EXP which you didn't mention at all.

And even then, after all this you'd be wrong at 'There is really no other reason for the bot meta' considering the fact you had to add more reasons to explain the bot meta.

Ariel the CruelDec 24, 20161 votes

The mid focus was a thing, once upon a time.

I remember when Clairvoyance was considered valuable so you could see who was going to what lane. XD

"I've never found an explanation for WHY the old meta was the way it was"

The purpose of that set-up was to optimize the 2 carry roles. Mid is the shortest lane and was reasonably safe with wards. ADC's went there to farm and siege turret. Mages generally had the best range and a bit of CC to escape ganks, so they got the longer lane. Both mid and top got farm and levels. Tank and support where seen as less valuable and grouped into a less optimized position. Bot lane controlled dragon, which is why it has always favored a duo lane. However, the NA meta favored a roaming support, so they were often responsible for both bot and mid. Jungler hasn't changed much.

The EU meta focused on optimizing the entire team, instead of just the carries. Tanks had a lot of durability, strong base stats, and some CC to survive ganks and support leveling. They were also still seen as less valuable than mages. So they went top. Mages moved mid as a matter of progression, since they scaled harder with levels than gold. ADC's scale more on gold than levels, so they got put into the duo lane. Supports were still the short stick, and laned with the ADC. Duo lane still went bot for dragon control. Jungle hasn't changed much.

The difference between the two ultimately came down to this: NA: the ADC was ahead in levels. EU: the tank (and sometimes support) was ahead in levels and ADC's were still about the same strength.

TeCoolMageDec 25, 20161 votes

yeah I know that :P OPs description is def closer to this than Z Static imo

GigaPubeDec 24, 20162 votes

i agree totally, and i love the explanation of pretty much the meta of roles/lane allocation, but it is partially because they're weak and need protection. if that werent the case, i would think, even just based on the popular plat+ gameplay stats recording on lolalytics, ashe top would get dumpstered every single game. ok not literally, but i feel like, this is one time winrates will matter, and i believe we would see ashe top with less than 40% winrate, and that is a rare time we can look at a winrate AND make reasonable judgements that, ashe doesnt need buffs, she is just a bad top laner, and she shouldnt be played there. but of course as with most troll picks, you cant judge a person to be hands down a troll or just bad, until they feed and its then guaranteed that ashe top in that case was a really bad choice and they then can be labelled a potential troll

ProfDrDeathDec 23, 20161 votes

This is the actual explanation why ADCs go ~~bot~~ into the duo lane.

Tower, tank and objective destruction via high sustained damage is the reason teams bring an ADC in general. But the less XP dependent nature of a ranged, auto-attack based champion allows them to be the role that shares XP with the support (and two of the 5 players have to share, since Summoner's Rift only has 4 resource streams).

EedatDec 23, 20166 votes

But thats pretty much exactly what I said lol

MarshbouyDec 24, 20161 votes

50% of responses that i get on popular posts are just saying what i said but slightly different.

AckelopeDec 24, 20162 votes

It's just how people come to understand a topic, sometimes. So often do people "disagree" with people while sharing very similar points. My best advice would just be to humor them and make sure they're aware of their redundancy...

ProfDrDeathDec 24, 20161 votes

Yes. Just putting it in a different way.

With "this", I meant your explanation, by the way. :) Not a good thing to write replies when you been awake for 22 hours...

Ariel the CruelDec 24, 20162 votes

This is the actual explanation why ADCs go bot.

That's why ADC's duo lane. (As stated by the OP, incidentally.)

The Duo goes bot because they are the stronger than any of the solo lanes, which makes it easier to control/contest/protect dragon and the rice-paper turret.

ProfDrDeathDec 24, 20161 votes

True, my bad.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 24, 20161 votes

its both. adcs are also not very good 1v1. a support plus an adc kind of makes a complete character put together, one has the cc or utility the other has the damage.

mid lane is about burst damage and wave clear, because those perform best, not just or necessarily at roaming, but also getting kills in a solo lane and keeping that tower alive in a short lane. it also is better for fragile characters than a long lane, since safety is closer.

top lane goes to bruisers and tanks because they tend to work better in the long lane (their fights are extended rather than bursty, and they can survive that kind of fight), and its better to have 2 people on the bot side for drag/tower damage

I Creampied JinxDec 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2KTRzW0f,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-12-24T01:58:15.862+0000)

its both. adcs are also not very good 1v1.

Caitlyn Graves Jhin Ashe Say what you will about Graves being in there, but his reload time isn't long enough for the sustain/damage output he does when he's up against you, and he will be up against you.

Umbra IoniaDec 24, 20161 votes

You forget the best duelist ADC Vayne

I Creampied JinxDec 24, 20161 votes

We were talking about winning 1v1s not winning 1v5s, GOSH

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 24, 20161 votes

graves isn't really an adc

the others, in the right circumstances can win a 1v1, but are pretty easily murdered overall. ashe could not survive midlane

DemonikSoulDec 25, 20161 votes

So no, its not a just a coincidence that the roles ended up where they are. It makes perfect sense if you think about it.

ya when you think about it it does but in the same time this meta isnt set in stone

i main support and whenever i end up with one of those adc who afk farm while enemy team focus me and slowly but shurelly kill me while my adc is holding on to their heal couse "u were goona die anyway"....well..

i just go top or mid lane and leave that ezrael and his free flash on 10 second cd to free farm the lane with his q and his 100 escapes while the enemy top laner - yasuo screams in despair at his team that he cant sit in lane couse that damn sona just took 1/2 of my hp with q + passive combo and now he is loosing xp, gold and tower while the enemy jungler is ganking the ezrael who has flash heal and esc on E + he can farm safelly froma far with his q and R if needed. Congratz u just got your top laner who was loosing his lane 3 kills and a first tower gold so now he is fed u have assists and u can roam and snowball the other lanes all while that crappy ezrael who led you die 3 times was free farming bot

LordBrascaDec 27, 20161 votes

Mages are also in mid because they are a lot squishy compared to bruisers, the lane being shorter in mid helps a lot to protect yourself faster from ganks.