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I do understand the fact that Marksmen deal a shitload of damage, but...

SaltyToplaneGoat··43 votes·2,451 views

... for the love of god just why do they also have the best sustain in the game to back it up with as lifesteal scales with their unholy damage?

I remember playing against a Cait - she got jumped, managed to escape with a silver of hp, but instead of backing away or rushing for her allies to heal and protect her, she just kept shooting. By the time we could get to her again - only a few moments later - she was already full HP thanks to her items, while having about 0 decrease in damage for that bonus.

Maybe a reason supports on botlane get crowded out by midlane-rejects - after all who needs shields or heals when you are usually full health save for the rare event someone lands their cc on you. As long as it has cc it can support, and in that case people pick the least team reliant thing that can potentially kill an enemy by themselves just in case your lane-buddy is a moronic dumbfuck who can't position for shit even if you tell them a million times to stay back and out of trouble because they are 0/7/1 - and who already flames the support for taking that one kill by accident. cough Vayne players cough

So the most common supports I see on botlane are either Brand, Malzahar and Zyra, or sometimes a Thresh. And the only reason Janna can still compete is because of her extremly simple design.

Can we tone ADCs down so they actually DO require a support and/or the team to back them up and reach their full potential? Tbh the fact that there exist champions that can theoretically "1vs5" is already mind-bogeling when you think about it.

73 Comments

fuffychan15 votes

{quoted}

I am bad at this game

I agree

MissingKayo20 votes

{quoted}

I do nothing but shitpost on boards

I agree

vOmvbrawfU14 votes

{quoted}

I say, as I'm shit posting someone on the boards because I'm a hypocrite

I agree

BLACK REALM GOD13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sharkbait Ohaha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2Iy6PhKY,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T19:56:49.637+0000)

This is an abuse of the flaws in the quoting system

I agree.

ItzBongoz8 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2Iy6PhKY,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T20:25:39.149+0000)

I. agree.

You thought I broke the chain but did you notice that there's an extra period?

vOmvbrawfU7 votes

{quoted}

I'm savage

I agree

Snowplosion3 votes

I'm fed af.

I agree

vOmvbrawfU5 votes

{quoted}

I don't know how to quote so I ruined the chain

It's ok

MasterOfMetaI4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sharkbait Ohaha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2Iy6PhKY,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T23:45:22.799+0000)

If you or a loved one has been diagnosed with mesothelioma you may be entitled to compensation

I agree

ZT Xperimentor10 votes

And now you know why people say marksmen are better drain-tanks than actual tanks.

JackMcSnipeyz7 votes

Marksman are weak to burst, tanks are weak to DPS. You cant out DPS the DPS class,

the levels of lifesteal you're talking about is super late game, not fucking laning phase! Thats not the reason mage supports are botlane, it's because mage botlane just faceroll the marksman before he can retaliate.

Stevev452 votes

They are weak to burst, but burst is a shell of it's former self.

JackMcSnipeyz7 votes

How? Everyone complain about damage creep. Hecarim, vi, j4 are all bruisers but can literally 1 shot squishies with their combo late game. Burst is definitely not weak

Stevev455 votes

I was thinking more about burst from mages. Mages used to hard counter ADC's from early to late mid with their burst, and reliable CC. That has been toned way down with reworks, and anti burst items, and nerfed or deleted AP items.

The 3 bruisers you mentioned would be less of a problem if they didn't have over powered MR/AD items to ignore the APC's on their way to murdering the ADC.

Also, the term "1 shot" is over used.

Lauchmelder1 votes

I oneshot the enemy Tristana as Syndra in 0.16 seconds. Granted, I was kinda fed, but burst is in no way in a bad spot.

Stevev452 votes

If they had time Syndra would have been reworked too. My guess is she is still on the chopping block.

Also, you didn't cast 4 spells in .16 seconds.

Its All Skillzz6 votes

{quoted}

If they had time Syndra would have been reworked too. My guess is she is still on the chopping block.

Also, you didn't cast 4 spells in .16 seconds.

she just pressed R, havnt you ever faced a syndra lol.

JackMcSnipeyz2 votes

How are mages having tough time beating marksmen? Mages literally plauge botlane like zyra brand and vel'koz just burst the adc from the get go.

You seriously tell me lux can insta burst any carry with a simple snare ult basic attack? Or le blanc? Or vel'koz, kat, ahri, any burst mage really.

Burst is fine, if you give the adc enough time to life steal back to full health, your burst wasn't enogh so you're probably havent spiked yet.

Stevev452 votes

I'm not arguing that there is only one way to balance the game. But there was much more burst in game in S3 than there is now. And in my opinion that was the most fun season.

So you're saying mages are fine. I'm mean I agree, everybody is fine. However, I think back in S3 when most mages had secondary roles as immobile assassins, the game was more fun and more balanced. ADC life steal was even stronger in S3 than it is now, btw. But, it worked.

noob zed2 votes

If they buff the mage class, it will result in ADC's being worse wich opens the field for tanks. And thats how you get the tank meta back.

Sire Hippington7 votes

If it was just that, but they also get some burst protectionitem 3814 item 3022 item 3156 item 3812 item 3072 (and their support) and anti CC item 3139 aswell as for some reason MS from their core items(god forbid a melee could outrun a ranged) ADC are still rediculous as fuck come to lategame, they just don't get there as easily. I really would prefer adc haveing less trouble midgame if their lategame therefore gets less stupid...

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

To be honest I never understood why glass-cannons needed defensive options. That's what your team is here for!

Tbh there would be a lot less complaining about yasuo if it wasnt for the phantom dancer passive...

Silly Neeko3 votes

{quoted}

Tbh there would be a lot less complaining about yasuo if it wasnt for the phantom dancer passive...

And... You know.... The ability to just Tornado a wave of minions and get all your hp back because his Tornado from his Q applies on hit effects..... Perhaps that could go away and we can see how he is after that.

Glory ln Death1 votes

Death's Dance only applies 1/3 healing for AOE damage. Shouldn't AOE "autos" like Yasuo Q and Graves' shotgun only apply 1/3 regular lifesteal, as well? Seems like that would make more sense and be healthier.

Silly Neeko5 votes

And yet i just beat a Yasuo support and with twitch ADC as Nami with a Cait adc last night. Yasuo kept almost killing my ADC but heals from me get the better of him as he just blocks my ulti with his wall. They even were ahead because of two ganks from the enemy Graves jungler..... Thankfully in that situation my Rammus jungler (who had the time of their life because of the others on their team being Talon and whatever other AD champ), came bott and picked up a double kill both of those times. Carry supports like Brand and Zyra and Nidalee (if done right), are easily out done by actual supports.

Oh yeah and btw... Exhaust > ignite. No matter how much i complain because the ignite lasts just a tick too long every single time.

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

early on, ignite > exhaust in the sense that in an all-in that burns heals and exhausts bot lane, ignite > heal+any other heals the support has.

late game when adcs have stupid lifesteal, here comes ignite again to fuck up their sustain. however, note that this also depends on the support. a cc lacking support like Soraka cannot take ignite because she needs exhaust for peeling. however, blitz/leona/thresh on the other hand, can make good use of ignite without losing out too much from the lack of exhaust.

Tensec4 votes

Adcs are lategame In your scenario either everyone inted into the adc that they're literally miles ahead of you or they've hit lategame after being abused for the first 30 minutes and have a normal build

agbudar4 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are lategame

not really not with item 3142 and the general lethality build that works great on many adc's not with item 3153 + item 3071 on a lucian (which he can get decently quick) and become a god among men. adc needed roughly 3-4 items to get good. support role is starting to become obsolete due to the nature of the role and what it used to be.

OP actually makes a valid point about how support are (were) supports because an adc needed to farm the shit out of a lane (for many many seasons) get his 4 items and then finally hit that spike.

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

How is 3-4 items not lategame? Thats almost full build not including shoes

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Usually in the olden days, "Lategame" was "everyone was full items". Midgame was the "when teamfights break out to when everyone is almost full stuff".

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

4 items + shoes means you have everything you need, the last item is usually just a dynamic touch depending on the game. By the time you get 4 items the game should be 30+ minutes which is late game, unless you got fed, in which case you should close the game.

agbudar2 votes

i typed: they needed 3-4 items to get good

like in the past

but nowadays they only really need 1 or 2

Anidan1 votes

Is this the same past where people went IE into PD for their big power spike to come online in 2 items, or the past wherein people rushed Bloodthirster for immense sustain? Because in the past ADCs were just fine with their 2 item power spikes--only when Bloodthirster became THE item to rush for ADCs did they need 3-4 since they put off their big damage items for survivability.

So basically... what you said is only partly true and even then the Tri-Force carries of that time (Ez, Corki) came online with just that one item.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are lategame In your scenario either everyone inted into the adc that they're literally miles ahead of you or they've hit lategame after being abused for the first 30 minutes and have a normal build

What about the lane bullies though?

I don't think a Cait deserves the same lategame as a Jinx. Yet hers is either as safe and more powerful or weaker but much safer.

Tensec1 votes

Nowhere near Jinx has her q toggle laning Jinx gets 2 max attack steroids with instant traps and a global

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Nowhere near Jinx has her q toggle laning Jinx gets 2 max attack steroids with instant traps and a global

Jinx's laning is pretty damn bad, dude...

Her passive relies on kills/assists, which is nowhere near reliable because it means you get nothing in the beginning of a fight. Her Q means getting into 525 range, aka she gets deleted the moment she tries that.

On the other hand Cait has traps which make chasing her really difficult (you can't path in a straight line, aka it takes longer), an E which slows, acts as an escape, AND gives her a lot of damage.

Cait basically has a permanent 16+% AD boost once she gets Runaans (50% + crit scaling every 3 shots), and also gets Headshots with traps and E (traps are really hard to dodge in teamfights, and these get an EVEN stronger headshot, with an additional 70% AD scaling and some base damage). Mind you, this is all from the safety of ~650 range. On the other hand, Jinx gets up to 110% attack speed if she dares go into 525 range and auto 3 times, or 10% extra damage, AoE, and 25% less bonus attack speed with 700 range.

You can see how much stronger Cait is assuming the enemy isn't completely grouped and all getting triple rocket-ed.

Tensec1 votes

Be honest a sec Caits nowhere as good as jinx for kiting tanks Caits traps are not able to protect her for shit in a teamfight unless you're a dumbass garen but even then there should be an Assasins or burst Magee from the side to kill her

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are lategame In your scenario either everyone inted into the adc that they're literally miles ahead of you or they've hit lategame after being abused for the first 30 minutes and have a normal build

ADCs are lategame - while laning vs them is impossible - melees get destroyed under tower, casters go oom. Lategame, right. This is valid only for dominion and aram.

Thilmer4 votes

"Lifesteal" is a stat that doesn't make any sense: "You get more sustain and more survival options when you build ofensive ítems"; no, you shouldn't, ofensive ítems shouldn't give you defensive power, the expresión "glasscanon" exists for a reason.

the weeaboo2 votes

You either blow them up or face the reprocussions. Duh. If you don't focus the ADC first thing, you just lost the fight. The reason it's balled is because I can literally solo kill an ADC with a support. It takes NOTHING to kill them. They are the definition of a glass cannon.

Need Gold 4 Tent3 votes

an ap support perhaps, 1 shotting a resist-less champ for a total of ~1.7k hp is possible. however, that relies on you building glass cannon AP as well.

a tank that only has defensive items will not be able to one shot anything (sunfire and thornmail damage included), much less duel an ADC.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

You either blow them up or face the reprocussions. Duh. If you don't focus the ADC first thing, you just lost the fight. The reason it's balled is because I can literally solo kill an ADC with a support. It takes NOTHING to kill them. They are the definition of a glass cannon.

Except the moment they get a BT that's just not true anymore, and once they get LW tanks can't even touch them.

the weeaboo1 votes

Tanks aren't supposed to touch them at all. Assassins do. Assassins slip in back and one shot ADC. ADC stays in back and kills tanks. Duh

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

Tanks aren't supposed to touch them at all. Assassins do. Assassins slip in back and one shot ADC. ADC stays in back and kills tanks. Duh

Yeah well peel and BT shields make it really hard for an assassin to do anything unless they're super fed.

They also die really quickly to the ADC.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

Wow! Almost like assassins cant go in brainlessly 3v1 and win?! Assassins punish bad positioning with high mobility and quick combos. Divers go engage team fights. Learn the difference.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

Wow! Almost like assassins cant go in brainlessly 3v1 and win?! Assassins punish bad positioning with high mobility and quick combos. Divers go engage team fights. Learn the difference.

The problem is when an assassin goes in at the perfect time but BT shield + draintank is too strong.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

BT shield is far from enough to stop an assassin, it can help, but usually it just deleys. Rengar, kha, lb, fizz,, talon - all have enough damage to bypass the shield.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

BT shield is far from enough to stop an assassin, it can help, but usually it just deleys. Rengar, kha, lb, fizz,, talon - all have enough damage to bypass the shield.

The problem is, most assassins get kited really easily after they use their initial gap closer. And they generally can't deal damage when being kited.

Main offender is Cait.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

Oh, i agree on cait, but that's champ specific. Jump on twitch, kog, ashe, jinx any other none mobile carry and they are free gold.

the weeaboo1 votes

I'm pretty sure if you can't one shot the ADC as an assassin you don't deserve to kill them anyway. Any ADCs dont buy BT til like 4th or 5th item at the earliest sooooo

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