I'm a little disappointed in the Warlord/Fervor changes

Big Lincoln·Feb 14, 2017·7 votes·10,780 views

From 2/14 Update http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/02/214-pbe-update.html

Fervor of Battle (Ferocity Tier 6) Stacks of Fervor duration increased from 6 seconds to 8 seconds.
Warlord's Bloodlust (Ferocity Tier 6) Life steal against champions based on missing health lowered from 20% to 15%.

The way it was mentioned, I thought the changes would be a little more.. impactful? I'm not really sure what I thought was going to happen; the extra duration on Fervor is certainly nice, but I don't feel like this addresses how these two keystones just sort of swap between being strictly better than the other for ADCs.

What do you guys think?

32 Comments

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20179 votes

Warlord's could be more engaging, interactive, cooler. We'd like to look into options for it at some point, though can't make any definite promises there.

In the short term though we believe the game's just straight better without Warlord's being a common choice in lane. That much sustain from game start results in some trends that lead to less interesting game states (poke doesn't stick so burst or farm strats get favored, some champs go warlords to avoid losing lane at the expense of mid game+ effectiveness against other positions, comparative impact of lifesteal items gets devalued etc).

La BelloFeb 15, 20172 votes

Ever considered making Warlords a "Surge" or "lifeline" type effect where you it would only last until you leave combat?

Seems that would be the easiest way to solve the interaction and the poke-counter problems that the keystone yields. Windows of power and whatnot .

Into The AetherFeb 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ever considered making Warlords a "Surge" or "lifeline" type effect where you it would only last until you leave combat?

Seems that would be the easiest way to solve the interaction and the poke-counter problems that the keystone yields. Windows of power and whatnot .

Like a low health thing? Like Maw?

That'd probably result in the power going up.

Then Tryndamere has 5 seconds with it to rebound during ult.

La BelloFeb 15, 20171 votes

I mean Tryndamere can still do that with the Live version of Warlords anyway and if they kept the Lifesteal amount based off of missing HP it shouldn't be too problematic.

RiotMeddlerFeb 16, 20172 votes

More windowed versions (with a CD, only does anything below X% health etc) have shown some promise. We'll likely keep testing those sort of things, not confident enough we'll ship something to make any promises though.

RexSaurFeb 15, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Warlord's could be more engaging, interactive, cooler. We'd like to look into options for it at some point, though can't make any definite promises there.

In the short term though we believe the game's just straight better without Warlord's being a common choice in lane. That much sustain from game start results in some trends that lead to less interesting game states (poke doesn't stick so burst or farm strats get favored, some champs go warlords to avoid losing lane at the expense of mid game+ effectiveness against other positions, comparative impact of lifesteal items gets devalued etc).

Ok so atleast make it so fervor is actually viable on adcs.

Crit adcs are already underperforming, they dont need another nerf, warlords is their only saving grace in lane so they can actually survive jhin and stuff, like how are you supposed to survive a zyra jhin combo without warlords? by playing Varus and doing an even more uninteratictive gameplay?

Make it feasible for adcs to get to max stacks within a reasonable amount of time, 2+ more duration does not fix the issue that it takes 8 AAs for adcs to even start to get benefit out of this.

How about make it have 10 stacks, 6s duration but make it so EVERY AUTO stacks 2 (from both ranged and melee) and make it so it can also get 2 stacks on ability use every few seconds.

AhristocatsFeb 15, 20174 votes

you're aware that everyone takes warlord except jhin? there is ezreal taking fervor sometimes but a lot of ezreal also takes warlord

warlord makes the game uninteresting, sivir lost trade against draven, but it doesn't matter she will get so much hp back under tower then draven does the same thing both get their hp back it's so bullshit

And your idea of making ranged champions stacking twice faster will make them so bs fervor will just be a common bonus that every adc gets in every teamfight , They already have 1.6 attack speed Fervor should be buffed for adcs, but it shouldn't be +2 sec duration,** but it ALSO shouldn't be +2 stacks per AA**

SaltyKrackaFeb 15, 20172 votes

At the same time though, with poke supports effectively dominating the bot lane...

LankPantsFeb 15, 20172 votes

Warlord's could be more engaging, interactive, cooler. We'd like to look into options for it at some point, though can't make any definite promises there.

Any chance we could make it a Keystone that's also usable by APs? If you're a mage your choice for Keystones is generally Thunderlord's. Some can use DFT or Stormrader's, but most mages are just stuck always using Thunderlord's.

The Yetii RiderFeb 15, 20173 votes

If Fervor of Battle has become "necessary" for marksmen to have a decent mid game, then where is the player choice? Keystones are supposed to be impactful but varied. At this point you've nerfed champions and items based on how they function when a champion pairs them with Fervor. Then you nerfed Fervor and everything went to hell.

Introducing base damage to champions' kits doesn't go well. I thought Riot learned its lesson when it had to buff several champions just to change Lich Bane, but then we got Ludens Echo and now this mess...

DarkRitualFeb 15, 20171 votes

So why not make it just level-based with lower numbers, then add something else on top. 2/2/3/3/4/4/5/5/6/6/7/7/8/8/9/9/10/10% lifesteal. When at full health, first basic attack deals +5% more damage (cooldown 30 seconds).

NefariousQuackFeb 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Warlord's could be more engaging, interactive, cooler. We'd like to look into options for it at some point, though can't make any definite promises there.

In the short term though we believe the game's just straight better without Warlord's being a common choice in lane. That much sustain from game start results in some trends that lead to less interesting game states (poke doesn't stick so burst or farm strats get favored, some champs go warlords to avoid losing lane at the expense of mid game+ effectiveness against other positions, comparative impact of lifesteal items gets devalued etc).

and adc's with weak lanephase become unplayable if you nerf it with lethality carries the way they are

KinderFeb 15, 20178 votes

There are a few reasons I'm taking Warlords over fervor:

Enemy supports can typically 100-0 solo me with the meta of Zyra/Brand/Malz/MF. Without that sustain, the enemy support just forces me out anytime their is combo up.
The extra LS is nice against assassins since the meta supports aren't that peel based like a Janna so I need that to survive the assassin meta.
Trades with ADCs right now are typically only a couple of AAs, supports tend to do a lot of the trading. I get more value from 1 AA onto an enemy ADC with Warlords than I do with 1 auto with fervor. If I do try to go for an extended trade, I'll just have 6 voidlings on me or 3 Zyra plants AAiing outside of my AA range.

I really don't see much reason to go fervor until supports like Braum/Alistar/Trundle come back into the meta where I'm losing lane because of budget midlaners that dictate botlane.

CPT CAPSLOKFeb 15, 20171 votes

Thank you i fully agree on that.

BeatzBoyFTWFeb 15, 20171 votes

What was the context of the mastery rework? I heard there were going to be 5 trees in the future?

SlashStrikerFeb 15, 20171 votes

Why Master Yi's Double Strike has only 4 seconds duration? Some champions got 10 seconds like Yasuo on his tornado and Annie got no timer on her stun. So Yi Meditates for 4 seconds to gain DS but it has only 4 seconds duration

And now FoB has 8 seconds duration

HR CepheiFeb 15, 20172 votes

As an adc main in this meta, warlord is what keeps me alive through the horrendous early and mid game. If you nerf warlord just to make this more engaging, then we can delete half the marksman champs and all play poke mages instead.

HR CepheiFeb 15, 20171 votes

How about reduce warlord effect on minions, but add an leech life effect on champions.

Cosmic WarperFeb 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Warlord's could be more engaging, interactive, cooler. We'd like to look into options for it at some point, though can't make any definite promises there.

In the short term though we believe the game's just straight better without Warlord's being a common choice in lane. That much sustain from game start results in some trends that lead to less interesting game states (poke doesn't stick so burst or farm strats get favored, some champs go warlords to avoid losing lane at the expense of mid game+ effectiveness against other positions, comparative impact of lifesteal items gets devalued etc).

"poke doesn't stick so burst or farm strats get favored".... where does this happen. Please tell me where, because varus and jhin are long range poke champs and they're the two best marksmen right now while "farm strat" adcs like vayne, kog, and jinx are subpar. Warlord's is needed to combat the bot lane poke and harass from AP mages and the strongest marksmen. Without it nearly all marksmen will just not be played, period.

UltîmaFeb 16, 20171 votes

Why not just rework one of the two keystones to work differently than the other? Masteries from the other trees have different activation requirements (land cc, consecutive spells, stay in combat for set amount of time, deal % of target's health, etc); wouldn't Warlords and Fervor stop competing with one-another if they were designed to suit different playstyles? Being AA-centric means these two keystones have always been in a tug-of-war for being ''the best'' on ADCs.

Either that, or change the effect completely; it's crazy that the best sustain option for keystones is in the Ferocity tree.

SolideusFeb 18, 20171 votes

Speaking of engaging and interactive, Deathfire Touch is absolutely not, either. It'd be great to see that one getting changes like the ones Warlord's might.

Also, any update to the new tech that would change how Thunderlord's works?

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 21, 20171 votes

I'm really not sure "Coolness" should be taken into account when something is being made or balanced. I mean it'd be cool if Nami's ult was global and twice the size. It would feel like an actual Tidal Wave, but I'm not too sure it'd be healthy or smart for it to be like that. Imo how cool something is should only be visual, and should not impact the actual balance of the game.

SpoofghoulFeb 14, 20174 votes

well look at that they nerfed Yorick one good keystone

warlords worked with ghouls it was nice while it lasted

i think i can safely throw him in the garbage bin again now

Big LincolnFeb 14, 20171 votes

i always preferred fervor on him tbh

then again I prefer him with item 3071 too

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 15, 20171 votes

I still use Grasp on him sometimes because it stacks with his Q's heal. (Since his Q is a boosted AA) The operative word being "Sometimes" because it isn't always the best choice depending on who you might be facing.

I never go without item 3071 on Yorick .

Asayake 5150glowFeb 14, 20172 votes

Whole problem with Warlords was the passive in lane sustain, I believe.

Big LincolnFeb 14, 20174 votes

I don't feel like this really addresses that issue in a good way; it doesn't become situationally better, like.. "increased lifesteal vs [X] champion you attack consecutively" or something. It's just flat worse at all stages of the game.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2HxwTV4P,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-14T22:18:52.073+0000)

I don't feel like this really addresses that issue in a good way; it doesn't become situationally better, like.. "increased lifesteal vs [X] champion you attack consecutively" or something. It's just flat worse at all stages of the game.

I agree, completely.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 14, 20171 votes

I wasn't expecting much for Fervor, but I had hoped for a Warlord Mini-Update. There's so much more they can do with an Offense Life Steal themed Keystone than just an early Vampiric Scepter.

SkelenthFeb 15, 20171 votes

I think the main problem with these two masteries is that both are best used by basic attack focussed champions and therefore, you only pick the objectively better one.