...they look at buffing their supposed counters in lane.
Then the supposed counters end up too strong. Then they'll buff crit/AS itemization so the original problem ADCs can keep up with their lane counters mid-game.
Riot, we've been through this before...several times in fact.
Just nerf the problem ADCs (and other champs for that matter). Save us all a lot of trouble in the future.
Marshbouy10 votesDepends on how the meta shifts. Nerfing the champion could result in them being gutted once the meta shifts away from them.
WoonStruck47 votesMeta should not be determined by balance, though. That's why League is such an incredibly flawed balance design.
Meta is determined almost solely by state of balance in League.
If the game were properly managed, that could easily be accounted for. Unfortunately, its not.
Competitive is always about the same, binary, broken picks at any given time. Its very rare that a champion is picked because a specific player plays well with that champion. And those teams usually do not win.
PureSilvrr8 votes^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ZT Xperimentor15 votesUnfortunately spot on.
MEMEME6703 votesMeta should not be determined by balance, though. That's why League is such an incredibly flawed balance design.
How would meta ever not be determined by balance? You'd need basically a perfectly balanced game for that to be the case.
WoonStruck18 votesLeague's meta is almost solely determined by balance.
For example, if Irelia became meta, we wouldn't suddenly have a resurgence of Singed/Volibear games. We wouldn't suddenly have ranged top laners stop being picked and have it pretty much end up Irelia, Darius, Illaoi, Riven, Fiora, Malphite, Poppy. We wouldn't end up seeing Poppy support in order to protect the carry against her. This is all what would naturally happen if Riot properly managed their game.
Instead, Riot would nerf Irelia, while ranged top laners would continue to get played and dominate the above mentioned picks. Because Riot doesn't want to address ranged vs melee dynamics, nothing would get done about this.
That is a problematic balance regime.
Champions that are successful at something should not be nerfed solely because they accomplish what they're supposed to and ADCs can't just right click to counter it.
However, in League, that's what happens. ADCs have a hard time? Nerf what's giving them a hard time or buff ADCs. The meta that comes up revolves entirely around those nerfs as opposed to what's likely to happen in-game.
Another example? Marksman update. Keep in mind that Riot stated it was supposed to be power-neutral.
ADCs rampant everywhere from top lane to jungle, to even mid. People start picking Rammus/Malphite top; a logical answer to the meta. Riot's poor ADCs had a hard time picking 3+ AD comps into them, so they nerfed Rammus/Malphite for doing what they're supposed to do. It took them several patches to realize that the reworked ADs were the issue that caused the massive meta-shift in the first place.
What they should have done is naturally let AP tops start taking over to shut down Rammus/Malphite. That would be a metagame that did not revolve around game balance.
Spacesuit Spiff9 votesOk you clearly saw that Extra Credits video, so i must point out that this game is never going to have a cyclical meta. Even if it were perfectly balanced. Most people dont play this at a high enough level to keep up with meta cycles, they just find one thing and sheepishly copy it regardless of if it's actually superior. The people who are knowledgeable enough for this (pros especially) also get more value out of playing a generalist they practise for 10 hours a day, since that expertise is more valuable than some slightly favorable matchup.
Also, you only get to pick one champion. In pokemon or any card game, it's totally reasonable to have a spot or two reserved for counters to common threats, but even in 5s that's doesnt happen to the extent it could. That's just the kind of game we have; it's more efficient to spam something that gives you a 2% higher chance of winning than try to play a whole mess of counters at the same level.
WoonStruck9 votesI wasn't referring to the Extra Credits video.
I was referring to past experience with other MOBAs and including League seasons 1/2.
In fact, that's exactly why I started playing Vlad back in season 2 or 3. Before you couldn't really be countered if you played super safe. You just farm up and hit your power spike. I was sick of having to deal with Darius, Pantheon, Mundo, GP, Malphite, Olaf, Singed, Trundle, Tryn, Shen, Volibear, etc any time I picked Irelia or Jax and also getting perma-kited by any ADC with even the tiniest bit of peel. Vlad's bad match-ups were all manageable without jungle intervention, no matter how bad of a state he was in, and he could always 1 shot ADCs if flash/ghost were up (yes i was using it even back then; not a sheep).
Hinagiku334 votesI'm pretty sure what he's talking about isn't the same thing as the "Perfect Imbalance" video.
A "Meta" is literally just "How everyone else plays". Thinking about what other people you play with and against do and making decisions based on it. That's it.
After the Marksmen Update when ADCs ran rampant in 3-4 positions and curb-stomped despite 3-4 ADCs being a horrendously bad and imbalanced team comp, some people looked at it logically. They thought "Wow, I've been seeing 3-4 ADCs on the enemy team for like 5 straight games now. It's probably going to happen this game too. I better pick Rammus or Malphite to punish them for their horrible team comp."
Then logical step would be for the opposing to think: "I've been seeing people pick Rammus and Malphite a lot to counter all of the 3-4 ADC comps we've been running. We already have an ADC bot and mid too. I was thinking of running an ADC top lane, but I should probably pick an AP top laner so we don't get countered and lose."
What actually happened was Riot thinking: "Wow Rammus and Malphite are winning a lot right now. Basic common sense says that we should see if people were doing something dumb like running all AD comps that would naturally cause these two to win a lot since they counter dumb strategies like that. Buuuut...we just reworked ADCs and we don't want them to feel bad losing because they picked 4 ADCs. Better nerf Rammus and Malphite so ADC players can't be punished for their bad decisions."
Thus, rather than the Meta changing based on player choices, it was once again forced by Riot balance changes that nerfed champions that punished the bad decisions players were making so they could keep making those bad decisions without worry.
UkeNeverSeme2 votesAdc rework is a couple of seasons past bro.. And currently adc is the weakest role game impact wise. Which is why rito are nerfing its counters/buffing adcs.
WoonStruck3 votesYes, that's why whichever bot lane wins pretty much wins the game. /s
Early on they shouldn't have impact. They all basically hyperscale.
Past early game, they easily have the most impact outside of junglers, who everyone knows are super overpowered atm.
Riot's not exactly nerfing ADC counters atm, fyi.
GayFluffyUnicorn4 votesADC rework was s6 and another one in s4. You know what happened back then? yeah adcs went rampage, tristanas killing you in a second. What happened S6? Yeah the same. Now the only thing that happened was giving tanks more survivability and suddenly acs are the "weakest" role in the game. ADCs were never stronger than currently. You get away with building 6 damage items, you reach lategame hypercarry state with two items. 2 items for the same dmg you had in past seasons with 4 items. You guys don't even notice the bullshit you spout.
WoonStruck4 votes"Hurr, lower AD"
Yeah, but 20% higher crit and broken passives on the Zeal items.
Zeal items all being massively buffed while their prices dropped significantly.
ZephyrDrake8 votesexcept that those ADCs that are being buffed are ADCs that rarely ever see the light of day since everyone else just does their job better. When a champion is underperforming they are going to get buffed. We already nerfed the problem ADCs so what? keep nerfing them until they just become garbage picks and then call it a day?
WoonStruck29 votesSo what, you think cyclically buffing all of them is a good idea?
Its never worked out before.
ZephyrDrake6 votesSo what, you think cyclically buffing all of them is a good idea?
Its never worked out before.
so according to you we should just nerfed all of them until they are unplayable right? we should do that with every single champion i guess. Just nerf the problematic ones instead of actually helping those who are struggling. Oh what's that? there's a 5% winrate champion? nah just nerf everything else eventually that will climb since he will face champions just as garbage as he is
WoonStruck32 votes**Nobody said anyone should be nerfed until they're unplayable. **
Nerf the heavy outliers until they aren't mandatory over the middle-line ADCs. Then buff the never-use slightly over time until they're viable.
Riot never does this now. They just buff, buff, and buff. If they hand out nerfs, they're in the completely wrong area.
Dionesus6 votesSo what, you think cyclically buffing all of them is a good idea?
Its never worked out before.
Actually that is a great idea. Just yesterday I read that one pro thought adcs are useless at the moment. He definitely isn't the only one that has felt like that. Bro you know nothing of balance so plz stop.
Lauchmelder4 votesDextix has a point though. Why are ADCs pretty much mandatory in every game?
It's because they are the most reliable source of sustained damage.
Riot should really start gutting champions (Azir-style gutting) and then gradually buff them back up to a good spot.
Stop releasing champions or change numbers, take your time and balance champions through Base stats + scaling, then step away from changing champions (unless it's a rework/ new champion) and balance the game through items alone.
UkeNeverSeme6 votesActuslly its because they are the most reliable way of taking structures. Their are mny better forms of reliable ranged dps, since mages are so much safer to play.
Lauchmelder2 votesMost of the mages do their damage in bursts (as well as short, high damage poke), there's only the exception of Azir, Cassiopeia and Ryze.
The Yetii Rider2 votesSo what, you think cyclically buffing all of them is a good idea?
Its never worked out before.
It works just fine. You don't have the same idea of "works" as the game designers, that's the problem.
Riot does not want a perfect 50% win rate and 5% play rate for every champion in the League. They want to constantly shift the game to create new FotM so the game never feels "solved" for too long.
UkeNeverSeme2 votesBro. First of all balance cant be fixed. It just cant. League is a (to all intents and purposes) fairly balanced game. But that only keeps being that way because of these cyclical adjustments that have to be made every time some korean figures out the optimal way to play the game. Otherwise it becomes a stale game of trying to the optimal thing best (see lane swapping in season 5). Also adcs are so weak that some high elo (challenger) players are trying out ziggs bot as an alternative ranged tower destroyer, that also comes with a decent champion attached, rather than using adc's, since the entire class is just so bad currently. Except twitch and cait, as well as last patch vayne, who was retardedly broken because of a quickly reverted buff.
GayFluffyUnicorn4 votesThey don't take ziggs because adcs are so weak lmao. You don't even understand WHY they are doing it yet you are talking about game balance. First blood turret gold is very important. High elo games are way more snowbally than low elo. This is still an objective game. Losing bot tower opens the map so that you can rotate to mid or top. It has nothing to do with adcs being weak, just ziggs being able to take turrets faster. If the game goes past 20 minutes good luck with your ziggs when the enemy vayne starts to three shot the whole team.
Surfer Ashe8 votes2017 and still thinking ADCs are a problem LuL
You and about 3 other deluded folk seem to think that way while Master tier ADC mains want nothing to do with that role at the moment.
WoonStruck16 votesIts not because ADC is weak. Its because bot lane is irritating to play in.
Go re-read the Master tier player's post. Please.
The reason they don't want anything to do with the role is because you have little control over how you do, and it all stems from 2 being bot, a weaker tower being bot, dragon being bot, first tower gold, and 4 players ending up down there all the time because of it.
Nothing to do with the state of ADCs.
Suggesting that Twitch/Cait don't need nerfs is ludicrous. Jhin/Vayne could deal with some too, but its not really required.
Rivuo8 votesIts not because ADC is weak. Its because bot lane is irritating to play in.
Go re-read the Master tier player's post. Please.
The reason they don't want anything to do with the role is because you have little control over how you do, and it all stems from 2 being bot, a weaker tower being bot, dragon being bot, first tower gold, and 4 players ending up down there all the time because of it.
Nothing to do with the state of ADCs.
Suggesting that Twitch/Cait don't need nerfs is ludicrous. Jhin/Vayne could deal with some too, but its not really required.
You mean the reddit post where they all said adcs are weak until 30 minutes in the game? excluding vayne and twitch
The A lister1 votesyou forgot ez can get a good power spike between 20-25 with stack tear. but for the most part your correct
UkeNeverSeme3 votesThis only works in a slowpaced game such as pro level. In solo queue you need to snowball, so in reality an ezrael who gets to abuse that powerspike is probably already far ahead. From behind its nice, but seldom does much tp save the game.
WoonStruck5 votesWas there another master player post?
One of them I remember reading was about the current bot lane meta due to dragon, more gank value from 2 champions, weaker tower, etc leading to 4 man ganks bot, making ADC players feel powerless in the outcome of the lane.
He said he was just going to play jungle, mid, or whatever so he feels like his input actually has an impact on the game or something.
Rivuo2 votesWas there another master player post?
One of them I remember reading was about the current bot lane meta due to dragon, more gank value from 2 champions, weaker tower, etc leading to 4 man ganks bot, making ADC players feel powerless in the outcome of the lane.
He said he was just going to play jungle, mid, or whatever so he feels like his input actually has an impact on the game or something.
There is currently 4 posts on the front of reddit page
2 of them just say explicitly adcs are shit except like 3 because they have no early game power.
WoonStruck10 votesMost of them never had early game power. That's nothing new.
Why should effective hypercarries (relative to any other champ) be strong early anyway?
Are you sure its not the overpowered jungle they should actually be complaining about?
Or too many eggs in one basket being bot, forcing mid/jungle to interact with the EXP starved bot lane more than other seasons?
Maybe the damage creep due to keystones/masteries leading to ADC itemization filling the damage gap between them and other classes later than previous seasons?
I don't feel like ADCs, specifically, are too weak; its everything else that's out of line. I feel like several aspects of the game are way too out of hand and definitely need to be dialed back so that ADCs can rest in a spot that isn't either overpowered or useless at any given time. I don't think most people enjoy seeing them either 2 shot or get 2 shot in any given scenario like in season 6 and this season so far.
Asking for ADC buffs just furthers the issues that the game is going through already. Everything else needs to be put back in line.
GayFluffyUnicorn4 votesWell who knows who said anything there. 95% bronze-gold talking such bullshit. ADCs weak until 30 mins lmao. Sure if you have 4 cs/min maybe. ADC mains, even the higher tier ones just have a very whiny attitude. It's annoying af.
Dextix LT4 votesYes, they are a problem, select few of them are a problem, which results in other adcs never being played. I can hardly remember when i have seen champs such as sivir or even ashe on bot.
Also, if those mains dont want anything to do with that role, why are adc's still mandatory to this day?
Irelia Bot2 votesbecause "mah siege" "mah DPS"
If that makes a class mandatory then shouldn't assassins be mandatory to delete the siege and DPS from the other team?
But they are not. This is a part of the meta that for some reason people think is mandatory when in reality it should not be mandatory.
If they scale better with items then levels then make items scale with levels.
IF supports need some other way to get exp then provide it with realistic downsides like only gain exp from higher level allies.
UkeNeverSeme3 votesThats because assassins in their nature get fked up if they do not outplay or get fed. They are not relevant from behind, and thats why they will never truely be meta unless super op.
Surfer Ashe11 votesBecause people resist change.
Because Riot has enforced this meta for multiple seasons.
Because trying to commuicate you want to run something different bot with 3-4 other strangers within 1 minute before drafting begins is nothing short of a disaster
Because any time something goes wrong, the first thing to blame is a variable that is different from norm - i.e. Non-ADC bot.
Riddle me this? When tanks were "objectively" weak, why were they still picked? Three weeks ago, people on Boards were saying tanks don't live longer than 3 seconds in teamfights, yet here we are where tanks and bruisers are running rampant with very little changes to pen or defense.
Mains don't want the role because they're fed up, but can't play much else thanks to a stagnant role lineup.
GayFluffyUnicorn4 votesTanks where not weak? The only tanks you would see were poppy or maokai. For an entire season. Stop bullshitting. ADCs are stronger than the seasons before, adc mains in general just have a very whiny attitude. Tanks op,bruisers op, assassins op, everything op. Yet once a jinx gets a few kills on botlane there is no way of you getting back if played right because with two-three items she already scaled into lategame hypercarry state. The only reason tanks are coming back is because of CotC and i'mactually talking about TANKS like nauti, malph and still you rather see someone like jayce, kennen, rumble top. In elos that actually matter. Only poppy is busted af but she has been busted for nearly a year now.
Surfer Ashe3 votesIf you think Poppy is the only busted tank right now, I'd question if we're playing the same game.
Treyhova6 votesThis is like your 4th post proposing nerfing ADC's. Do you have a problem with them?
WoonStruck8 votesJust the current top 3 outliers. I think a good portion of them need buffs, but Riot never buffs the ones that actually do need buffs. Instead they usually buff the ones that are fine until they're overpowered too.
A large part of the current issues come from the way-too-low price of Zeal items, along with Warlord's.
In addition, bot lane's meta needs to be changed. First tower gold, weaker tower, 2 being bot, and drag being bot all account for the near-inevitable clown-fiestas down there that are making many ADC players feel powerless.
Tank items are too efficient; the amount of HP and resists on them leads many alternative picks top/jungle left out of meta because they can't deal with anyone that buys those items. They're essentially non-factors until they get a penetration item. If you're someone like Jax, you fall off the moment tanks get items and never recover.
Mages are effectively assassins but safer and with more utility. Morello's needs to be gutted and more prolific AP itemization added; specifically itemization that doesn't combine high damage with defense or utility.
#I have problems with a lot of things in this game
The top 3 ADCs are the most blatant ones at the moment, however, outside of jungle which would just be beating a dead horse at this point. Specifically, I want Twitch's late game gutted. A ranged assassin should not have that much AoE or be that bursty compared to melee assassins. His current state reeks of Riot's horrible design philosophies for ADCs.
Sozan52 votesMages are effectively assassins but safer and with more utility. Morello's needs to be gutted and more prolific AP itemization added; specifically itemization that doesn't combine high damage with defense or utility.
Oh yes, I agree with that, even though the most troublesome items were already hit pretty hard (Rylai and Zhonya). There's still Hextech Gunblade, which needs active damage lowered or slow removed... And I think there's something else, but it escapes me.
However, Morello? I don't think it's really that much of a problem.
On the other hand, the same treatment should be applied to AD itemization, namely Hexdrinker and Mercurial Scmitar. The first is too cheap considering its stats and passive effect. I believe either the item should not be efficient stat-wise or the passive shield should be nerfed. And Mercurial just shouldn't have lifesteal on it (For example: 60 AD, 35 MR, 3100 cost).
NineTailedMystic5 votesMorellos gut
So you want to take away the one truly good item away from APs? That'd be akin to taking Black Cleaver from Juggernauts.
WoonStruck2 votesI said add more prolific mage itemization in its place.
Way to pick and choose what you see.
NineTailedMystic3 votesDefine adding prolific itemization.
WoonStruck4 votesItemization covering a much wider variety of needs, much like how divers Juggernaut, diver, assassin, and ADC itemization is all drastically different, despite all being items for AD champions.
Stagnant, although potent, AP itemization is where a majority of the issues with AP champs come from. One item is stronger than the other, every mage is going to use it. No questions asked because there is no other option for most.
NineTailedMystic2 votesI suppose you're correct in that Morello is always bought because its the best AP item really, and adding more items in order to allow weakening it would solve that issue. On the other hand, there's the fact about how almost every class has a core item, such as Infinity Edge for ADCs, Black Cleaver for bruisers and variants, Sunfire/Visage for Tanks. Mages have Morellos as their core item as the most frequently purchased AP item.
I'd assume that you'd suggest an item for less AP but more Mana/CDR and another for more AP for less Mana/CDR. I don't think that'd work as people would buy the high AP item 95% of the time if I had to make a guess. I suppose removing the Grievous Wounds off of Morello and putting it on a new dedicated item for it to remove how the Grievous Wounds is just an "Added Bonus" would work.
WoonStruck2 votesI suppose you're correct in that Morello is always bought because its the best AP item really, and adding more items in order to allow weakening it would solve that issue. On the other hand, there's the fact about how almost every class has a core item, such as Infinity Edge for ADCs, Black Cleaver for bruisers and variants, Sunfire/Visage for Tanks. Mages have Morellos as their core item as the most frequently purchased AP item.
Most items aren't objectively overloaded for a class outside of Morello's/Black Cleaver. TBH I think Black Cleaver needs to be nerfed pretty hard as well. Instead, include some form of tank-busting on all Juggernauts like Garen and Darius currently have in their Es.
Mages, in a healthy state, would likely revolve around utility and some damage, as opposed to being ranged 1-shot champs.
Something much closer to Zilean or Orianna with CDR and itemization to push their kits further, as opposed to Xerath or whoever landing stun and instantly deleting you.
I'd assume that you'd suggest an item for less AP but more Mana/CDR and another for more AP for less Mana/CDR. I don't think that'd work as people would buy the high AP item 95% of the time if I had to make a guess. I suppose removing the Grievous Wounds off of Morello and putting it on a new dedicated item for it to remove how the Grievous Wounds is just an "Added Bonus" would work.
I'd be fine with the AP/CDR on Morello's if it also wasn't changed to give mages better laning while building it and didn't offer GW. I have no problem with a high AP/CDR item. I do have a problem with the most efficient high-damage item being given such an incredible build-path as well and having an unnecessary utility that basically hard counters some champs that are already feast/famine. Much like Black Cleaver.
Even Deathcap rush was healthier back in the day. You got no utility, no mana, no CDR. Just AP. There were trade-offs for building it first, unlike rush items nowadays. Its laughable that Riot thinks rushing a 160 AP item for 3600g was unhealthy, but rushing a 2900g 100 AP, 20%CDR, 400 mana item with the superfluous GW effect is healthy.
