Sunfire Cape

Gnart Even Close·Apr 17, 2016·6 votes·1,012 views

So Sunfire Cape is too strong right now and is being abused by literally every top laner (looking at you Ekko). Along with Iceborn Gauntlet , it allows champions building full tank to output ridiculous amounts of damage. It still offers a great concept of giving damage and tankiness, and while I don't think it's necessarily the numbers that are too strong, I believe the problem is how cheap the item is. All of the other tank items are 2900 gold, and Sunfire Cape is arguably stronger than they are right now, so why shouldn't it also be 2900 gold?

Sunfire Cape still also needs to be changed to be inactive when out of combat. This is most relevant when walking through the jungle and on certain stealth champions (Teemo).

I think these two changes would make Sunfire Cape more balanced, give a nice QoL change, and also eliminate some fringe abuse cases with invisible Sunfire Capes.

38 Comments

Jonheath291Apr 17, 20164 votes

item 3025 is getting nerfed this week during the patch. item 3068 is actually pretty weak, most opt to get item 3742 instead. Ekko is also being nerfed in the patch so that tank Ekko will be less rewarding than ap ekko (how he should be played)

Most Stealth Champions who "could" abuse item 3068 such as Teemo and Twitch don't because they can deal a lot more damage by simply attacking enemies, and smart enemies would notice their hp dropping for no reason and know that there was a stealthed unit close to them.

I do agree that item 3068 should not cause aggro on jungle camps unless they are being attacked, much in the way AurelionSol 's stars don't until he enters combat with them.

Gnart Even CloseApr 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

is getting nerfed this week during the patch. is actually pretty weak, most opt to get instead. is also being nerfed in the patch so that tank will be less rewarding than ap ekko (how he should be played)

Most Stealth Champions who "could" abuse such as and don't because they can deal a lot more damage by simply attacking enemies, and smart enemies would notice their hp dropping for no reason and know that there was a stealthed unit close to them.

I do agree that should not cause aggro on jungle camps unless they are being attacked, much in the way 's stars don't until he enters combat with them.

Sunfire Cape is weak? Are you being serious right now? It and its component Bami's Cinder are way too strong right now, and are a huge part of why the tank assassin meta exists right now. The abuse case is not that relevant, but I mentioned it to shut up the people who have said that disabling Sunfire Cape when out of combat is a buff to it.

I know about the PBE changes, but I don't think they will be enough to completely eliminate the "assassin building tank and doing better" issue. Iceborn Gauntlet is only half the problem in the Sunfire-Iceborn duo, so both parts should be addressed if the issue is going to be dealt with

ßurstApr 17, 20164 votes

Idk what elo you are but absolutely no one buys the overnerfed too expensive deadmans plate lolololol

ViashinoWizardApr 17, 20163 votes

Immobile tanks/fighters without gaplosers like TahmKench still get it as a 3rd+ item depending on the game, but they're certainly not buying it over Sunfire Cape.

DREADN0UGHTApr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

caplosers

''gap closers'' , because they close gaps.

ßurstApr 17, 20162 votes

I agree 100% tbh sunfire gives too much for its cost and doesn't need to be nerfed to give less just a cost increase would put it in line. That being said a i had a gp go sunfire ibg while i was playing fiora top and in a extended fight he was destroying me lol

Gnart Even CloseApr 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=27dF7rAn,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-17T19:48:12.207+0000)

I agree 100% tbh sunfire gives too much for its cost and doesn't need to be nerfed to give less just a cost increase would put it in line. That being said a i had a gp go sunfire ibg while i was playing fiora top and in a extended fight he was destroying me lol

yeah. i think you can just get it so early and you still have gold to get other items sooner as well. this is especially obvious when you see that everybody is picking it up as a first or second item since it's so cheap for the power it gives, which is less important later on where slot efficiency is more important. at least the ibg is getting nerfed on the pbe, but there are no changes to sunfire cape like needed

ßurstApr 17, 20162 votes

Im pretty sure on twitter they i think it was riot gizmo? said that they are aware sunfire is too strong and will be recieving nerfs next pbe cycle along with buffs to fiora and i think bamis cinder is also getting nerfed. lol People are just downvoting at this point because they don't even know why these items are too strong....

Gnart Even CloseApr 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=27dF7rAn,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-04-17T20:11:57.224+0000)

Im pretty sure on twitter they i think it was riot gizmo? said that they are aware sunfire is too strong and will be recieving nerfs next pbe cycle along with buffs to fiora and i think bamis cinder is also getting nerfed. lol People are just downvoting at this point because they don't even know why these items are too strong....

i didn't see that. that's good, except fiora buffs. fiora seems to be fine rn, and with her previously dominating the meta, her time in the spotlight should be done for a while. most people on the boards don't know balance, just like reddit

ßurstApr 17, 20161 votes

She got hit hard and shes at a 45-46% win rate both her base stats got hit and her items so she could use some help.

Gnart Even CloseApr 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=27dF7rAn,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-17T21:19:02.815+0000)

She got hit hard and shes at a 45-46% win rate both her base stats got hit and her items so she could use some help.

i didn't realize it was that much. 45-46% seems kind of reasonable on a champion that is supposed to be difficult, but i guess it is a bit low. the touches she needs then better be very light so she doesn't get back to how abusive she was before

ßurstApr 18, 20161 votes

People with 125+ games on fiora only have like a 48% win rate i think they went a little toooooo ham on the nerfs but i dont think its just the nerfs, I also think its just the tanks actually not just being tanks but all of them being dmg dealers at this point also and she now forced to build squishy can't keep up.

Gnart Even CloseApr 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=27dF7rAn,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-18T19:46:08.139+0000)

People with 125+ games on fiora only have like a 48% win rate i think they went a little toooooo ham on the nerfs but i dont think its just the nerfs, I also think its just the tanks actually not just being tanks but all of them being dmg dealers at this point also and she now forced to build squishy can't keep up.

i didn't realize it was that low. seems reasonable. just hopefully they make her stay as a squishy damage dealer and not as a tank

ßurstApr 19, 20161 votes

The thing im worried about tho is not tanks after the lane phase thats fine and can be handled with during mid game where their damage falls off. I'm more worried about tanks being able to completely destroy any person who builds squishy during the lane phase. I feel black cleaver is too expensive to be a relevant tank counter and should be focused more as an early game item counters tanks so with a cost decrease and stat decrease it would be a lot better than it is currently.

Gnart Even CloseApr 19, 20161 votes

i much preferred the black cleaver from season 5, where it was focused more on defense and less on offense, and was significantly cheaper. i personally feel that it could be brought down to 40 AD, even with the new build path, and could use a kindlegem in its path again and be brought back up to 400 hp and brought down to a cost of maybe 3250? it was much better the way it was before, but i love that the caulfield's warhammer is in the build path now, and it would be a shame if that was removed. that build path would be as complicated as the one for trinity force, and it would have a combine cost of only 100 gold, which would be amazing, considering that the 50 gold would be for the new passive and upgrade to the phage passive, and not anything to stats like it is now.

the old item was legitimately too strong, but it could be brought down in price and stats in order to be at the same glorious state it was in before. besides, it's supposed to be for juggernauts and the like, not for assassins.

hopefully the metagolem of sunfire cape, iceborn gauntlet, and spirit visage will no longer be a thing soon with the incoming nerfs to IBG, the changes to SV in the MYMU, and likely nerfs to sunfire in 6.9 probably hitting the price

ßurstApr 19, 20162 votes

I know its meant for juggernauts but fiora and like riven and other people who like this item aren't traditional assassins they are more of skirmishers, like getting that armor shred to help them with top lane and tbh i would prefer the old black cleaver with the 40 ad and 400 hp right? I just feel the item is too expensive for the job that its supposed to do.

Gnart Even CloseApr 20, 20161 votes

i agree 100%. the old one was better for Gnar too because it gave more health early and was cheaper so he could get tankier sooner

ßurstApr 19, 20161 votes

BRO BRO big update love it already so on /r/rivenmains on reddit scarizard said that they are looking into changes for black cleaver!!!!

Gnart Even CloseApr 20, 20161 votes

seriously! i'll go check it out right now and probably link it to /r/gnarmains. thank you so much for telling me!

DREADN0UGHTApr 18, 20162 votes

The balancing team should be rename ''meta shuffle team''. They don't balance things out, they just buff and nerf things around to keep the game interesting. There will always be some OP item that stands out, and some underpowered items that no one knows of ( item 3056 ).

Gnart Even CloseApr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The balancing team should be rename ''meta shuffle team''. They don't balance things out, they just buff and nerf things around to keep the game interesting. There will always be some OP item that stands out, and some underpowered items that no one knows of ( ).

remember that item item 3101 ? it gives the highest attack speed in the game and is only 1200 gold. more attack speed than phantom dancer and no adc gets it ever. when zephyr was around, at least some people got it back then

DREADN0UGHTApr 18, 20161 votes

wanna know why people don't build item 3101 on adcs?

(Hint: it builds into an AP item)

Gnart Even CloseApr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

wanna know why people don't build on adcs?

(Hint: it builds into an AP item)

i know lol. but still, it gives a ton of attack speed for its price, and could be useful on certain marksmen that are good with ap like kog'maw

DREADN0UGHTApr 18, 20161 votes

Ehhhh, maybe on AP corki?

StellafreyjaApr 18, 20162 votes

I read on Twitter than they were going to first hit the price of Sunfire Cape. I'm assuming it'll go up to 2900 to match the other armor items.

Variks the LoyalApr 17, 20161 votes

It's fine. It's early damage allows tanks to actually be able to compete with other top laners, and it falls off late game.

Gnart Even CloseApr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's fine. It's early damage allows tanks to actually be able to compete with other top laners, and it falls off late game.

"compete" is a mild way of putting it. anybody who builds a bami's cinder completely shuts out any opponents simply by nature of being tanky with lots of damage. it gets worse when sunfire cape is completed and they can already tower dive, and when they have iceborn gauntlet and are unkillable monsters. it's not competition, it's slaughter. and that is certainly not fun or healthy gameplay

Variks the LoyalApr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"compete" is a mild way of putting it. anybody who builds a bami's cinder completely shuts out any opponents simply by nature of being tanky with lots of damage. it gets worse when sunfire cape is completed and they can already tower dive, and when they have iceborn gauntlet and are unkillable monsters. it's not competition, it's slaughter. and that is certainly not fun or healthy gameplay

You realize nothing has changed about Sunfire and Bami's Cinder's damage since they were changed?

They always dealt this damage. In the case of Bami, it's always had that health stat. Sunfire was actually nerfed recently with 100g increased cost, compensating with 50 extra HP and 5 extra Armor, to make it equal to Dead Man's Plate.

Has it's damage always been overpowered? Or is it just a trend?

No, the issue isn't with the items in question, the issue is with the champions building it. If I went top lane, and built Sion with Sunfire, it would be balanced. With Maokai, with Volibear, or any Tank or Fighter, it would be balanced.

Enter Ekko, an Assassin with oodles of utility. The issue is that he brings too much utility, while also having the toolkit, high damage, and mobility of an Assassin. And Riot is addressing this with changes next patch - Nerfing his damage, and buffing his ratios, so non-AP based builds don't deal as much damage.

ßurstApr 17, 20162 votes

It's waveclear was buffed its armor and hp were increased let me remind you 1 armor = 20 gold so the 5 armor increase was enough already but they also increased the hp by 50 not a lot but still a buff 1 hp is worth about 2.66 gold now the amount of free gold from stats they got from that buff was 133 gold.

AlwaysByMySideApr 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No, the issue isn't with the items in question, the issue is with the champions building it. If I went top lane, and built Sion with Sunfire, it would be balanced. With Maokai, with Volibear, or any Tank or Fighter, it would be balanced.

It's overpowered on them too.

Tank Ekko isn't the only champion building tanky that's crowding out the other top laners.

Variks the LoyalApr 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=27dF7rAn,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-17T20:26:43.187+0000)

It's overpowered on them too.

Tank Ekko isn't the only champion building tanky that's crowding out the other top laners.

Pretty much is.

The rest of them have clear counterpicks and counterplay. Volibear? Pick a ranged champ and kite. Maokai? Play someone who can abuse his high mana costs. Sion? Play someone who can avoid all of his abilities. Shen? Avoid the taunt.

[{quoted}](name=The Ki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=27dF7rAn,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-17T20:19:15.634+0000)

It's waveclear was buffed its armor and hp were increased let me remind you 1 armor = 20 gold so the 5 armor increase was enough already but they also increased the hp by 50 not a lot but still a buff 1 hp is worth about 2.66 gold now the amount of free gold from stats they got from that buff was 133 gold.

They buffed the waveclear on purpose, because Tanks lack it. Ever seen a Shen try to waveclear without Sunfire?

Gnart Even CloseApr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You realize nothing has changed about Sunfire and Bami's Cinder's damage since they were changed?

They always dealt this damage. In the case of Bami, it's always had that health stat. Sunfire was actually nerfed recently with 100g increased cost, compensating with 50 extra HP and 5 extra Armor, to make it equal to Dead Man's Plate.

Has it's damage always been overpowered? Or is it just a trend?

No, the issue isn't with the items in question, the issue is with the champions building it. If I went top lane, and built Sion with Sunfire, it would be balanced. With Maokai, with Volibear, or any Tank or Fighter, it would be balanced.

Enter Ekko, an Assassin with oodles of utility. The issue is that he brings too much utility, while also having the toolkit, high damage, and mobility of an Assassin. And Riot is addressing this with changes next patch - Nerfing his damage, and buffing his ratios, so non-AP based builds don't deal as much damage.

bami's has always been strong. the reason sunfire wasn't broken before is because the tank stats simply didn't match up to those of the other armor items. don't get me wrong, the champions themselves are too strong as well, but the items themselves are also too strong. this is why you see even champions like fizz or diana doing ridiculously well while building full tank. ekko will hopefully be dealt with, but all that really means is that someone else will come take his spot, and it will probably be fizz or some other ap "assassin".

that being said, maokai is too strong rn, volibear is too strong rn, and sion is too strong rn. a balanced top laner right now would be shen

ZephyrDrakeApr 17, 20161 votes

item 3068 item 3143 item 3742

out of the 3 Armor + HP items while sunfire is the cheapest it's also the one who offers nothing at all other than the passive damage. All other armor + HP items grant a very significant amount of utility so you increasing sunfire's price isn't going to do anything but have everyone just stop buying it entirely since why bother wasting 2900 gold on it when you can get the same amount of stats along with better utility for the same amount? the only ones who would pick it are those who absolutely need it with a change like this

ßurstApr 17, 20161 votes

Riot stated before that they don't like tank items crowding other options that's why deadmans was nerfed hard and no one buys it anymore.

ZephyrDrakeApr 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=27dF7rAn,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-04-17T20:13:21.620+0000)

Riot stated before that they don't like tank items crowding other options that's why deadmans was nerfed hard and no one buys it anymore.

so... one item got overnerfed so your solution is to nerf another item so we have to overnerfed items instead of actually buffing the item that got overnerfed? should we make every champion deal damage and have fixed HP as well?

Gnart Even CloseApr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

out of the 3 Armor + HP items while sunfire is the cheapest it's also the one who offers nothing at all other than the passive damage. All other armor + HP items grant a very significant amount of utility so you increasing sunfire's price isn't going to do anything but have everyone just stop buying it entirely since why bother wasting 2900 gold on it when you can get the same amount of stats along with better utility for the same amount? the only ones who would pick it are those who absolutely need it with a change like this

it would still be a strong item. it still would give the same exact stats, and would do the same damage. 200 extra gold would bring it in line, not make it useless. the 3 items are options between damage, movement speed, and extra tankiness/aoe slow. the damage item would still be relevant on a ton of champions, it just wouldn't be mandatory on most top laners like it is now

ZephyrDrakeApr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

it would still be a strong item. it still would give the same exact stats, and would do the same damage. 200 extra gold would bring it in line, not make it useless. the 3 items are options between damage, movement speed, and extra tankiness/aoe slow. the damage item would still be relevant on a ton of champions, it just wouldn't be mandatory on most top laners like it is now

it's a good thing you aren't in charge of balancing since otherwise everything will suck. "it wouldn't make it useless" the item was RARELY bought when it used to cost 2600 and only after getting the 5 armor boost along with the 100 extra cost did it got to see any play by anyone that wasn't mandatory. Hell it used to cost 2650 and even after it's priced got reduced to 2600 no one bothered with it and now you think that increasing it's price it wouldn't hurt the item? sorry but what? You want to increase the price of the item? give it more health, armor or passive damage since the item is pretty balanced already. Stop trying to make it sound like it's broken cuz it's not

Gnart Even CloseApr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

it's a good thing you aren't in charge of balancing since otherwise everything will suck. "it wouldn't make it useless" the item was RARELY bought when it used to cost 2600 and only after getting the 5 armor boost along with the 100 extra cost did it got to see any play by anyone that wasn't mandatory. Hell it used to cost 2650 and even after it's priced got reduced to 2600 no one bothered with it and now you think that increasing it's price it wouldn't hurt the item? sorry but what? You want to increase the price of the item? give it more health, armor or passive damage since the item is pretty balanced already. Stop trying to make it sound like it's broken cuz it's not

the item is not balanced
it was weak due to inferior stats
the item is now too strong and needs to be toned down
in order to keep it balanced, it needs good stats
the item is now 200 gold cheaper than other items in its class
a way to bring its power down to a more appropriate level would be to bring it to the same price as other items in its class
increasing the price is intended to hurt the item because the item is too good now
hurting the item does not make it useless
if the item is either too strong or too weak with no in between, the the item is poorly designed and shouldn't be strong
by being in the same class as the other items, it has the highest chance of being balanced
randuin's is the other item that sticks out as it has 60 armor compared to the 50 armor on the other items
it would probably be a good idea to make it 50 armor as well and buff something else, such as the attack speed slow to keep it at the same power level but make it better at its intended function of reducing damage from basic attacks and less at reducing all physical damage