Buffing Ruby Sightstone

Saixos·Aug 15, 2015·88 votes·13,592 views

There've been a number of threads on the boards about how undesirable is, as the only benefit from an additional 800g investment is an increase in health. A number of solutions have been proposed, but they often run into the same problem:

Riot does not want to make Ruby Sightstone too attractive to other laners, nor want supports to be forced to invest additional gold into it before they can purchase other items.

I was thinking about the problem, and I think I've come up with a solution.

new UNIQUE passive: Grants +20% CDR on active items.

Many support items come with active abilities to help them help their team, and often I find myself having 3-4 active items to work with. This change would make more desirable and more satisfying to obtain late game, but not force supports into upgrading it early on. It also wouldn't be nearly as desirable on laners as they usually have 1-2 actives tops, and the passive wouldn't help them nearly as much as investing the 1600 gold of into damage items or tankier items.

98 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 15, 201541 votes

What's the intended outcome of this change? That Ruby Sightstone becomes generally more desirable to upgrade to? Or is it more that Ruby Sightstone feels better to upgrade to for a support when they manage to go full build?

Puri Puri TaricAug 15, 201528 votes

{quoted}

What's the intended outcome of this change? That Ruby Sightstone becomes generally more desirable to upgrade to? Or is it more that Ruby Sightstone feels better to upgrade to for a support when they manage to go full build?

for my part the upgrade is just not worth it most of the time and i tend to max evry other item b4 ruby sightstone.

DELI MEATSAug 15, 20153 votes

Same here. The stats it gives really just aren't worth it at any other time imo.

OnegarionAug 15, 201529 votes

Yea Ruby sightstone is only purchased if I have every other item slot filled with a completed item, trinket upgraded, Elixer bought and there is nothing else to buy, BUT the Ruby sightstone. I mean there is really 0 reason to buy Ruby. You are wasting 800 gold on something that gives you very little benefit at all.

Sire HippingtonAug 15, 20151 votes

I'm pretty sure thats the intend, ruby-sightstone mostly exist so you have a bit more from from sightstone once 6-sloted. If sightstone would be more desierable to built, it would probably be mandatory for supports and evt even some junglers, delaying the purchase of other, more interesting items further and thus limiting item-varity in shorter matches.

though i do berlive that adding a giants belt and increasing the health to 550 with 2000 total cost might be interessting(400 more gold for 400g worth of HP), giving a bit more power to supportive builts later on, which could make sightstone feel like a better purchase on junglers aswell

OnegarionAug 16, 20151 votes

This isn't intended. Ruby Sightstone use to have a use. Before warding limits were a thing, the sightstone let you have 4 charges but you could only have 2 wards from it on the map at one time and when you upgraded it you could place 3 at one time with 5 charges. There was an incentive on top of the minor health boost. Supports almost always rushed ruby because you had the extra effect of placing 3 wards at 1 time without having to purchase them. It was a big spike in vision control. Now that the regular sightstone isn't limited more to the normal ward limit there is no reason to get the Ruby sightstone.

Ruby needs to be brought back in line with the vision shift that occurred. Sightstone was brought into line, but Ruby received no compensation to help it out. So what use to be a benefit in purchasing it was taken away and the cost was never reduced to compensate it for losing its benefit.

Sire HippingtonAug 17, 20151 votes

Ruby Sightstone **used **to have a use.

things have changed, and i'm pretty sure they knew rubysighstione would be come unattractive and willingly let it happen, mostly because

Supports almost always rushed ruby

Back then, you would have boots+gp/10+ruby as core on every support. I Prferfer the current state, where i have another 800'free' gold to use on situational items. I'm not against makeing sightstone more attractive in generall, but it shouldn't be to focused on vision controll, as that would make it mandatory to rush again. Some better stats, why not, cdr for item actives(includeing trinked?) as suggested by the OP? Fine with me. Just nothing that causes a return to the must buy status it once had...

OnegarionAug 18, 20151 votes

I'm not calling for a return to what was. I've been a support main since I started this game. I've seen every iteration of the role starting in season 3.

The problem is that Ruby SS has to stay with vision. It can't have others stats without them being extremely weak or it goes to lanes where we don't need it showing up. This is the sole reason it has to be geared towards vision only.

Ruby SS was a must buy for supports before because it allowed us to do our job at an extremely low cost. My team always knew what was coming because i would have at least 5 wards on the map at all time. Personally i liked being able to do this. I didn't have a problem with it and the only people who did weren't support mains, but peopel who weren't happy getting stuck playing support. Ruby SS let us ward out and save tons of the money that we didn't get.

There needs to be something that sets apart Ruby SS from normal SS. Personally I think it needs to have a Trinket-esque regen style where every 2 minutes you'd generate another ward. Something that doesn't make it lane appealing, but stick to what the sightstone is suppose to do. In this case it also isn't a rush at all.

stuartk11Aug 15, 20155 votes

From what I'm reading into it, it is to make the item more desirable to build to after you have acquired a couple of items to benefit the passive from. It would probably be worth it after upgrading your support item to max + Mikaels.

SaixosAug 15, 20156 votes

Yeah, it's kinda supposed to be a bit of both. Like most people in the thread have said, Ruby Sightstone just feels bad to upgrade, it's just going from your early game item to a marginally better item with no real benefit to you. Even if it is gold efficient, it feels like it's not worth it at all.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 16, 201512 votes

Cool. Thanks for the interesting thread, Saixos. Sounds like people are maybe wanting more of an interesting transformative element when upgrading Sightstone. From what I've read, players seem okay with upgrading it late in the game, but even then, it's mostly just because you can, and not that it feels good to do so.

VarnocAug 16, 20151 votes

The main reason that's been cited in the past for not 'buffing' Sightstone is that everyone would pick it up. I know I'm kinda opening a can of worms here, but what if Sighstone was integrated into the trinkets we have now? I'm not going to pretend I know what I'm talking about when it comes to balance and gameplay impacts of such a thing, however I can't help but wonder if we can't pair the two and give supports one of their item slots back.

exe3Aug 16, 20151 votes

They're already the same item, the reason supports don't go yellow trinket is because red trinket is too important and they can support their warding duties with sightstone. The only way to get them to go yellow trinket would be of there was an item with a red trinket active.

VarnocAug 16, 20151 votes

I agree completely, that's what I meant by the 'can of worms' thing. If you completely take it away, you need to have other items compensate for the loss of it. As noted elsewhere on this thread, there's a reason many high level support players go sightstone/sweeper.

Hyrum GraffAug 17, 20151 votes

I had a thread with this very suggestion. My conclusion was that in order to close that can of worms you'd need to remove vision wards from the shop.

WolfeurAug 16, 20154 votes

When even Braum players don't buy Ruby Sightstone before they get full build, you realize how inattractive the item seems.

darkdillAug 16, 20152 votes

We'll need to get Xypherous into this discussion; he has a lot to say about RSS.

In particular, I can cite this Reddit comment he made: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3d60zo/idea_a_way_to_make_ruby_sightstone_more_desirable/ct23kle

The bottom line is, Ruby Sightstone is not meant to be purchased until nothing else remains, and Riot doesn't want the item to become desirable to any class other than Supports (particularly Junglers).

I've made plenty of suggestions in the past, from increasing both the HP and cost of RSS (Xypherous said it makes the item unaffordable to Supports in late-game), to having RSS be able to regenerate wards in the field (the above link is Xypherous' response to someone else making the same idea), having RSS give bonus mana regeneration (since Junglers don't want/need that stat), etc.

Sadly, I'm at the point where I'm wondering whether or not things might be better if Sightstone and RSS were just removed from the game and replaced completely by the Trinket system. Then Supports would have 800 gold they aren't required to spend early, and can finally get some diversity out of rushes.

IcyPepperAug 15, 20154 votes

I'd say it's a little bit of both.

A lot of support actives are really useful late-game when teamfights happen. Lower cooldowns would help immensely, while the current cooldowns are relatively fine while laning. Take item 3222 for example. 180 seconds before you can remove another cc effect and slightly heal your carry. Won't be up much, but relatively useful in lane in that one case you can't save your adc under normal circumstances. It's an emergency active when your usual kit just isn't enough that one time. If you buy this baby, ruby sightstone would probably come soon to compliment it (since it'll be mid-game/late-game when you have enough gold to have those two, boots, and your income item).

However, the money-making actives are on the support items (see what I did there?). item 3069 item 3401 item 3092 . 40-60 second cooldowns, up a lot during laning and the beginning of most teamfights. High utility, incredibly useful. Ruby sightstone would be tempting to build early, but just not worth it since the cooldowns are relatively low enough to warrant building other useful items.

Tank supports, who don't always build as much item actives as AP supports (but definitely can!), would get a bang out of their buck when building item 3800 item 3143 when their main initiator has their's on cooldown.

I feel like the intended outcome of this change would be making ruby sightstone a desirable mid to late-game orientated item, and almost nearly useless early (I don't think many laners would be tempted to rush this).

Old Man TeetoAug 15, 20152 votes

Makes it feel more desireable to upgrade to after you've purchased your support items.

20% CDR onto item 3060 item 3069 item 3800 item 3222 would let supports scale their power efficiently.

WolfeurAug 15, 20158 votes

One of the current problems is that it's inattractive for AP support, even when we're in late game, because they don't really care about health and one more ward stored in it. WORSE, it's counter productive on Soraka! However, all supports usually get a lot of active items:

Trinkets item 3364 item 3361 item 3362 Gold gens item 3401 item 3092 item 3069 Utility/tanking items item 3190 item 3060 item 3143 item 3222 item 3050 item 3800 item 3023 And sightstone itself item 2049 item 2045

We finish a game usually with minimum 4 actives, that means doubling our number of abilities. Having more access to Actives CDR would be great to emphasize our utility.

PurodyuusaaAug 16, 20153 votes

Now there's a novel thought. Something you can buy in the game that improves active CDR? With all the things supports juggle in their item bar, it wouldn't be that bad of a thing to have.

UrPalAlAug 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

What's the intended outcome of this change? That Ruby Sightstone becomes generally more desirable to upgrade to? Or is it more that Ruby Sightstone feels better to upgrade to for a support when they manage to go full build?

Repertoir, I want you to think of it like Jayce.

When you guys made the changes and gave him 6 ranks per ability, you did it because it felt like a trap to put a point in your ultimate, and you would always level everything up before your ultimate, because the stat bonuses it gave you just weren't worth the upgrade.

It's the same with Ruby, once you have it, you don't ever upgrade it until EVERYTHING else you could possibly upgrade/buy is upgraded/bought. Then you FINALLY upgrade it, and even then, it feels like it's a waste of 800g that you just wish you could invest elsewhere.

UrPalAlAug 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

What's the intended outcome of this change? That Ruby Sightstone becomes generally more desirable to upgrade to? Or is it more that Ruby Sightstone feels better to upgrade to for a support when they manage to go full build?

Unfortunately it obviously can't be fixed the same way that Jayce's issue was, but maybe we can find a way for the item to benefit supports, and support only. People have had the idea to have ruby branch out to different enchanted versions much like the jungle items, I think that's a great idea, but of course you have to ask yourself, "Would this be abused by laners?" Something I don't the answer to.

KarKzzAug 16, 20152 votes

I may have an other idea. How about some bonus effect depending of the support item ? When you buy the ruby sightstone ? So other roles can't abuse flat extra stats.

Some exemples :

**blue support item ** Bonus AP item 3092 People hit by the active have their tenacity reduced by 15% Alternative idea : The enemy hit take 10% more damage.

**Yellow support item ** Bonus MS item 3069 get an additionnal burst of speed that decay over 2 second when activated Alternative idea : A small bump around the support.

green Support item Bonus HP item 3401 now also shield the support Alternative idea : can be cast on enemies to deal damage.

BuzzinTateAug 18, 20151 votes

There should be an option to move ruby to the trinket space (deleting your trinket) but opening up another slot for an item.

twiggertoAug 20, 20151 votes

why not give ruby sightstone 10% cdr, then have it upgrade into some god tier ward item. increase the hp more, maybe give it armor, keep the 10% cdr and give it some kind of vision oriented passive, or increase the ward limit to 4. maybe increase gold generation by giving players more gold for destroying wards, IDK something that ties gold generation specifically to warding. that would also give low elo people an actual reason to get wards and less to build "full damage soraka" i feel like the 2 things a supp needs most is gold generation and vision, so why not tie the two together.

Maximum ZileanAug 15, 20157 votes

Well the other commonly recomended change would be having more then one upgrade for sightstone, with stats fitting each of the primary support types.

Ruby: HP / armor for the tanky supports

Amethyst: Mana regen / CDR for your utility supports

Sapphire: AP / spell pen for the mage supports.

But they would have to make the stats good enough to make them actually good purchases for this to work.

mgprx4DXfGAug 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Zilean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=25WNa33c,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-15T20:20:07.951+0000)

Well the other commonly recomended change would be having more then one upgrade for sightstone, with stats fitting each of the primary support types.

Ruby: HP / armor for the tanky supports

Amethyst: Mana regen / CDR for your utility supports

Sapphire: AP / spell pen for the mage supports.

But they would have to make the stats good enough to make them actually good purchases for this to work.

I'd straight up buy Ruby if it gave me armor.

This idea is pretty good, makes those dedicate support mains have a bit more taste in their sightstone.

TotalJerkAug 15, 20153 votes

The problem with the Amethyst one is that there are already a bunch of items a support wants that give CDR, especially utility supports. On top of that, most supports already have 5-10% CDR in their mastery pages. They'd likely just find themselves not even wanting that item.

Avios1Aug 15, 20155 votes

Acually, I think this idea might work. Well done here :)

AquodoxAug 15, 20155 votes

Will it be a bad thing if sapphire and ruby sightstone were also given a small GP5? Because in most of the games the support is usually the one with the lowest gold.

Why not have Ruby have a nice little passive where for every champion spotted by your wards, you are granted gold (10g).

SaixosAug 15, 20152 votes

That would fall under the category of supports wanting to upgrade ruby sightstone earlier, as the earlier a gold generating item is obtained the more gold it will give. So I don't think it would be that great of a change, as it would either be too little to matter or enough that supports need to upgrade to ruby before buying other items.

AquodoxAug 16, 20152 votes

What if Assists lowered the cost of Ruby? For every assist, the cost for upgrading sapphire into ruby is reduced by a fixed amount. 50g for every assist? Then the new Ruby bonuses on top.

Or what if it allowed an increase of the max amount of wards allowed on the map by 1.

PanterLilyAug 15, 20152 votes

That is a great IDEA!

If a enemy champion is spotted by a ward that is a X distance from an ally champion the caster is awarded 5 gold and the duration of the ward is increased for 5 sec . If the enemy is spotted in the casters own jungle the gold is doubled. Cooldown 60 sec.

TheDeviceAug 15, 20154 votes

I don't even buy sightstone on sup anymore lol. Just upgrade trinkets and an extra ward now and again.

Mast3rShakeAug 15, 20153 votes

You are: 1-0 thresh (0/5/9) 0-2 taric (1/6/2) 0-1 annie (3/10/3)

you don't support, even when you are the support apparently

TotalJerkAug 15, 20152 votes

There are actually a few high ranked supports that occasionally forgo sightstone in favor of just upgrading their trinket and buying wards. Thing is that it's really only feasible in very specific scenarios.

DeliothAug 15, 20151 votes

Agreed- I have 2 vision options: 1- if the enemy team is poke-heavy, I buy the pink trinket and a sightstone- lets me have vision control for objectives whenever I need it, and because of poke I'll probably have to back to refill my sightstone 2- if it's any other team, I tend towards upgrading my green trinket and just buying a pink ward every back.

I'd really like it if they made something to get true vision that wasn't a trinket- maybe a 1-2 charge sightstone for either a true pink ward or even some sort of variation (less health, limited duration, shorter vision range?), or maybe something more along the lines of item 3159 item 3185 's true sight burst? Or maybe an active that gives a shorter duration Raptor buff? Maybe to make something more balanceable make it so that it isn't really true sight, but only reveals wards? I mean, this would mean Teemo and Shaco wouldn't be affected, and would give me an option as support to get rid of wards at objectives without forcing me into red trinket or leaving an item slot open for pinks... Granted, ruby/sightstone does a very similar thing in giving an item slot for 150/400 health. And an item that was, until recently, still worth as much as a completely unupgraded item (Now it's 50 gold more than the most expensive t1 item).

Mast3rShakeAug 16, 20152 votes

How many pro supports don't buy sightstone? ZERO. Know why? Most cost effect vision item and their job is to provide their team with the most vision.

Maybe going route 2 is the reason that when you support with Alistar, Braum, Leona, or Naut you are averaging 9.5 deaths a game.

DeliothAug 17, 20151 votes

Yeah, pro supports buy sightstone because they value vision denial- because EVERYONE wards (buying them and everything), and getting rid of them is very useful. However, in bronze-gold, no-one buys wards (Except maybe 2-3 the support buys before sightstone, and a handful of vision wards), and as such there are so many fewer wards to clear out that red trinket becomes less efficient than green trinket's abundance of wards.

And good job looking up stats! I'm proud of you! Except getting caught on tanks isn't the reason for bunches of deaths. Bronze. Bronze is the reason for bunches of deaths. I've got to jump in front of the poorly-positioned adc and tank the damage from him so he doesn't give up 500 shutdown gold and give the enemy team a free push. And because it's the tank- standing at the front, throwing CC to get focused and dying is generally worth winning a fight when the other option is my assassin and fighter getting chunked out and being useless in the fight. And hey, actually LOOK at the matches in the history. I have 5 (five) support games in the relevant history without sightstone (I figure a year ago is outside of relevant history, and also 4 of the 5 were 10 months ago)

PanterLilyAug 15, 20154 votes

Riot does not want to make Ruby Sightstone too attractive to other laners,

Why not? Is the map gonna brake from all the light emitting from the wards?

This item should get a rework like "Hunter's Machete" did for the junglers.

SaixosAug 16, 20152 votes

Imagine a game without fog of war. Without being able to catch people out or surprise people by doing weird things, the game would become much more stale. While an exaggeration, if SS was too attractive to laners then it could cause problems similar to that. Too much vision isn't healthy.
Item diversity.

PanterLilyAug 18, 20151 votes

Item diversity.

I dont get this, are you mocking someone?

Purple DeathAug 15, 20153 votes

I still don't think it will make it desireable 800g is kind of a lot for those pathetic stats.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 15, 20152 votes

When you have item 3069 item 3060 item 3143 item 3222 and/or item 3800 , you'll enjoy it. And 800g isn't all that much for a support sitting with a carry.

Lv16 FlaaffyAug 15, 20152 votes

Why don't we create an active for the Ruby and make it something like that of Ardent Censer or Zeke's Harbinger?

That way it can be geared more toward supports?

SaixosAug 16, 20152 votes

How do you propose 2 actives on one item work? That seems needlessly complicated, no?

KrinuAug 15, 20152 votes

I like this idea. It's also something that will benefit supports by virtue of what they do, rather than being locked out of other roles explicitly.

Also, Lee Sin won't be able to cheese it horribly.

bunny1102Aug 16, 20152 votes

Personally I think a good proposal is to have a unique active where a support gains 5-10% movement speed after casting a ward.

Yura May ZingAug 16, 20152 votes

Why not just remove sightstone all-together and instead have a mastery far down in the utility tree that allows your trinket to store an extra charge. This way other lanes couldnt really abuse it since you would have to invest a lot in the utility tree, thus sacrificing damage / tankiness ect...