thank you for the grasp changes.

Critmaster Garen·Dec 5, 2017·4 votes·629 views

im not done giving you shit for ranged bias on most of the runes, but thank you for removing the health stack mechanic on grasp and replacing it with something that doesnt feel like a terrible mini game.

10 Comments

Critmaster GarenDec 6, 20173 votes

on second thought, i was not aware the bonus stacks infinitely up in combat.

you might want to rethink this part.

after playing with it, not only is it just as anoying as the health stacks to work with, but it might be a TEENY bit op to be able to stack 90 ad at lvl 1-3 just by trading a couple times and staying in combat on minions.

just saying. just keep it at the first stack and the keystone is good.

Ravenous HowlsDec 6, 20171 votes

I don't see how this is a good change. Especially as it can stack indefinitely until you kill a target. So it really just nerfs Tanks and Juggernauts who rely on this keystone and gives another viable keystone to mobile fighters and bruisers who can stick to target and prolong the fight to benefit from the tankiness and damage. I see Jax, Kled, Fiora, Riven, Olaf and Wukong becoming more oppressive with this change... Tanks may have been slightly too strong with current Grasp but this will make some champions, who are already sitting on high winrates, find another way to abuse another keystone against beefy match ups.

Critmaster GarenDec 6, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=257cXGfl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-06T15:05:33.709+0000)

I don't see how this is a good change. Especially as it can stack indefinitely until you kill a target. So it really just nerfs Tanks and Juggernauts who rely on this keystone and gives another viable keystone to mobile fighters and bruisers who can stick to target and prolong the fight to benefit from the tankiness and damage. I see Jax, Kled, Fiora, Riven, Olaf and Wukong becoming more oppressive with this change... Tanks may have been slightly too strong with current Grasp but this will make some champions, who are already sitting on high winrates, find another way to abuse another keystone against beefy match ups.

i dont think the infinite stacking will stay.

what i hate about the health stack mechanic is that it pressures you into using the keystone as much as possible during the lane phase to get the health stacks.

the worst is that in difficult matchups where youd need the health the most, you dont get to stack most of the time. while in easy matchups where you can repeatedly fight your opponent, you stack a lot of health.

next to pressuring you into using it, its also extremely frustrating to use due to how the rampup mechanic works. in a lot of cases trades in top lane are too short for it to get the proc. for example Garen q + spin combo with auto attacks is faster than the 4 seconds for grasp to get ready. so it either forces you to overstay in trades just to get the additional proc, or you have to ready it before a trade by constantly auto attacking minions and shoving the wave.

this new version of grasp doesnt care much how often you use it in the lane phase to make it scale into mid and lategame. even when you cant proc it every 10 seconds in lane, because youre up against a jayce or teemo who just poke and dont trade with you. its still going to be just as good in midgame teamfights.

Ravenous HowlsDec 6, 20171 votes

See I would think that it scaling on health would be better overall especially for Garen or Nasus who build quite a bit of health. 4% damage based on your max health is infinitely stronger than 1.6% of your bonus adaptive damage.

Also the health proc was never what I cared about Grasp for early as a Nasus main. It was securing good damage when I could pressure my opponent after buying items like SV, RG or Sterak's. The little extra health I got for trades when I could was just bonus not necessity for me.

What I hate about this new version is it essentially weakens tanks and juggernauts in favor of making it better for fighters/divers who already build a lot of damage with some tank and will get better returns off the damage as it is now.

Critmaster GarenDec 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=257cXGfl,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:22:10.072+0000)

See I would think that it scaling on health would be better overall especially for Garen or Nasus who build quite a bit of health. 4% damage based on your max health is infinitely stronger than 1.6% of your bonus adaptive damage.

Also the health proc was never what I cared about Grasp for early as a Nasus main. It was securing good damage when I could pressure my opponent after buying items like SV, RG or Sterak's. The little extra health I got for trades when I could was just bonus not necessity for me.

What I hate about this new version is it essentially weakens tanks and juggernauts in favor of making it better for fighters/divers who already build a lot of damage with some tank and will get better returns off the damage as it is now.

if you get the procs yea.

but you dont get them in most matchups. about 60% to 70% of the melee and ranged champions beat garen very early on and you have to take time and farm up and scale.

garen isnt an early game champion anymore. hes weak early and scales into mid and lategame. you dont trade well and often enough early on to make grasp stack, and even when you can outtrade your opponent, he starts playing passive and safe and avoids trades and you dont get many stacks either.

nasus doesnt want the health stack mechanic at all, since it would require him to trade. nasus doesnt want to fight his opponent for most of the lane phase. he wants to stack and scale and nothing else. hes most comfortable not interacting with his opponent for 10 minutes, sit under his turret and farm.

Ravenous HowlsDec 6, 20171 votes

Yes but what I am saying is that both play passive and farm. But once lane phase is over and Nasus has IBG, SV and Garen has BC and T2 Boots both can start out trading their opponent if they did not die and take over the lane. It's very easy to proc grasp and b/c it is 4% of max health currently and we are level 9 about with items that have health Grasp actually becomes a decent trading tool. Sorry if I did not make myself clear or if I rambled too much and missed my point*[galio-happy]*

Critmaster GarenDec 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=257cXGfl,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T19:01:47.657+0000)

Yes but what I am saying is that both play passive and farm. But once lane phase is over and Nasus has IBG, SV and Garen has BC and T2 Boots both can start out trading their opponent if they did not die and take over the lane. It's very easy to proc grasp and b/c it is 4% of max health currently and we are level 9 about with items that have health Grasp actually becomes a decent trading tool. Sorry if I did not make myself clear or if I rambled too much and missed my point*[galio-happy]*

after the lane phase fights arent as frequent and long usually. you wont stack more than like 50 hp at that point.

all the other functions of grasp like the % health damage and the heal are still the same in those fights. that fervor mechanic is a lot better than the health stacks.

Ravenous HowlsDec 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=257cXGfl,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T19:17:58.477+0000)

after the lane phase fights arent as frequent and long usually. you wont stack more than like 50 hp at that point.

all the other functions of grasp like the % health damage and the heal are still the same in those fights. that fervor mechanic is a lot better than the health stacks.

I tend to get around 200 HP per game as Nasus with it. Most games last somewhere from 20-30 minutes from me. I mean it's not a ton but it's not nothing either. I guess we will just need to agree to disagree about this. I only see that this will make mobile fighters better and make champs like Garen and Nasus even worse.

Critmaster GarenDec 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=257cXGfl,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:22:10.072+0000)

Also the health proc was never what I cared about Grasp for early as a Nasus main It was securing good damage when I could pressure my opponent after buying items like SV, RG or Sterak's. The little extra health I got for trades when I could was just bonus not necessity for me.

but this is exactly what the new version of grasp does!

the only thing that changed about it is that they replaced the health stacks with a fervor of battle kind of effect and make it deal more damage over the course of a fight for each subsequent grasp proc.

the healing is still the same. the % damage went down 1% and was changed to adaptive from magic damage.

its even better at what youre describing than before.