Will Riot ever stop pretending that having mana is anything other than 100% downside?

chumbler·Dec 14, 2014·10 votes·1,080 views

But I guess manaless champions make more esports #LCSBIGPLAYS, so who gives a shit about actual balance?

31 Comments

WheatloafDec 14, 20145 votes

They never pretended that having mana is better than being resourceless/manaless, all they ever said is that the two types have different ways of gating power, with mana being a much harsher gate to power than (almost) anything you can put on a resourceless/manaless.

For example, while Rumble can use spells off cooldown and not really have to worry about running out of them, if he uses too many in quick succession, he loses access to them for a few seconds.

Yasuo and Riven (neither of which I will pretend are balanced, this isn't a discussion about whether specific champions are OP anyway, rather one about mechanics) both lose out on value if they are not casting spells. A champion with mana has something to gain by saving resources for later, while Yasuo and Riven only put themselves at a disadvantage by not using spells whenever they can.

Energy champions have to watch how many of their spells they use at once, and how they use each of those spells, because for most of the game they can't get off more than one rotation of spells in quick succession without proccing their energy return mechanics (though some of these return mechanics are a little too easy to proc).

On the other side of the coin, champions that use mana have to constantly keep track of it, and make sure they waste as little of it as possible. This way, it's possible to give them much more impactful spells, because if they use them too often they'll be out of mana for much longer than any of the other resource types would be out of whatever gates their skill usage.

I won't pretend the balance between the champions that use each resource type is perfect, because Riot wouldn't have to work so hard on balancing every patch if it was. Everything above is just (in my own thoughts/words) what the difference between each type's strengths and weaknesses is/should be.

Cale017Dec 14, 20143 votes

Because no champion who uses mana has ever been a part of the high tier meta, carried a game, or been declared as OP, right?

PokladnicaZlaDec 14, 20147 votes

17.07% of the total champion pool doesnt use mana.

Aatrox DrMundo Mordekaiser Vladimir Zac

Akali Kennen Shen LeeSin Zed

Garen Gnar Katarina RekSai Rengar Renekton Riven Rumble Shyvana Tryndamere Yasuo

And which of these champions above arent/werent OP?

chumblerDec 14, 20144 votes

{quoted} 17.07% of the total champion pool doesnt use mana.

And which of these champions above arent/werent OP?

Basically just Garen and Kat. He was only just barely cresting the overpowered boundary back when you could stack sunfires (which had very little to do with Garen himself), and hasn't been anywhere near there since. Kat literally only does one thing, has no choice but to build heavy offense, and her biggest damage source is trivially and often accidentally canceled by her opponents. It's almost like these are the two times Riot came even vaguely close to being on the same continent as getting manaless champions right.

Riot is incredibly bad at balancing manaless champions (chiefly because removing attrition, a fundamental part of how this type of game works, and encouraging spamming spells that are often better than mana users' counterparts is beyond stupid), so nobody should believe a word any of them say about the "tradeoffs" manaless champions make until they start actually backing those words up.

Kuroi86Dec 14, 20144 votes

Vs mana based champs who have been regular members of the meta for quite a long time...

Amumu Blitzcrank Braum Caitlyn Corki Draven Elise Ezreal Fiddlesticks Fizz Gragas Graves Irelia Janna JarvanIV Jax Jayce Jinx Kassadin Khazix KogMaw Leblanc Leona Lucian Lulu Maokai Pantheon Rammus Ryze Sona Syndra Talon Thresh Tristana Twitch Udyr Vayne Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zyra

chumblerDec 14, 20143 votes

{quoted} Vs mana based champs who have been regular members of the meta for quite a long time...

Did I say "Having mana makes a champion trash"? No, I'm pretty sure I said that having mana is 100% downside and it's a joke that Riot is trying to convince people otherwise.

Kuroi86Dec 14, 20145 votes

Did I say "Having mana makes a champion trash"? No, I'm pretty sure I said that having mana is 100% downside and it's a joke that Riot is trying to convince people otherwise.

Copy paste from another post I put on here.

Actually it's always been a downside, it's meant to gate the early game on certain champs, allowing them only a very specific limit to how often they can use their abilities. Later on in the game, this gating becomes nearly non-existent, but by now this gating really is no longer needed.

Cale017Dec 15, 20142 votes

Yes, because it keeps them from being able to spam those abilities. In most cases, champions without mana either have longer cooldowns on their more utility based spells to compensate, so they can't really spam, or their early game damage is limited until they get points in their offensive skills, so being in a fight long enough to spam will usually result in a lost trade, or the loss of their life.

Blenny33Dec 28, 20142 votes

cough cough Riven cough cough

Cale017Dec 28, 20143 votes

{quoted}

cough cough Riven cough cough

RIven's abilities also force her to either use her spells to get in and not have an escape, or use her spells to try and get away and lose out on damage. She's a heavy snowballing champion, as she always has been, but unlike a Yasuo for instance if she gets shut down early and mid she can't suddenly get fed going into the late game. When she falls behind she stays that way. She's properly gated because she's running off bonus AD and cooldowns, not insane amounts of crit on cooldowns so low that they're essentially non existent.

Drunkèn MasterDec 28, 20142 votes

Yasuo...he is the only champ I have ever seen get wrecked early game, along with his team, it was literally like 3 kills to 15, farm for 5 mins, come back and completely turn the tides of the game from a 20-25 min losing game into a 40 min win. I have to say, I was a bit impressed. Obviously there were other factors involved in the turn around, but yasuo coming out and getting a triple kill is what started it. This is another reason why I hate the surrender feature...because you should never give up.

Cale017Dec 15, 20142 votes

Aatrox is too easy to shut down.

Mundo isn't OP unless you decide to focus him instead of carries in a fight.

Mordekaiser isn't OP. Just rough tod eal with.

Vlad isn't OP unless you let him free farm for it. And even then he can still fall off in the late game.

Zac? HAHAHAHAHAHAAH

Akali? She's an assassin. They always look OP in terms of single target damage.

Kennen isn't OP, even if he is a bitch to catch.

Shen's halfway unviable right now.

Lee Sin? Snowbally, but not OP. Definitely Riot's pet, though.

Zed? Another assassin.

Garen isn't OP, he's just hard to kill.

Gnar is only OP if you feed him in the early game. Late game he falls off.

Kat is an assassin.

Rek'Sai's early game is awful, and in order to be overpowered she has to give up early tankiness for early damage, making her easy to blow up.

Rengar isn't OP unless you let him get that way.

Renekton is a lane bully, but that doesn't make him OP. And, again, he falls off hard.

Riven is another snowballing champ. Don't put any snow on her mountain and she doesn't become an issue later in the game.

Rumble's early game is trash. He has awful last hitting, and requires a few levels before he can even start dealing enough damage to win trades. The only time Rumble looks overpowered is if an entire team stands on his ult for too long.

Shyvana isn't overpowered. I love her, but she is far from overpowered.

Tryndamere and Yasuo are both in the same boat. Easy to shut down, but if you let them get ahead you're going to feel it.

Sorry, but no part of the champions that you listed are overpowered just because they don't use mana as a resource except for maybe Yasuo's bullshit flow mechanic, which honestly needs a rework.

RatbertDec 16, 20142 votes

I think he meant op ever

Kuroi86Dec 14, 20142 votes

Will Riot ever stop pretending that having mana is anything other than 100% downside?

Pollyanna WrightDec 14, 20142 votes

Mana does have advantages if you balance the other resources properly.

Specific itemization others have to tax themselves for or just can't get.
Lower CDs then resource less, better sustained than energy.

Each resource has advantages or disadvantages, though most of the time Mana is used to prevent spamming like Draven or Soraka.

chumblerDec 14, 20144 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pollyanna Wright,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=232UA5Fc,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2014-12-14T21:30:46.544+0000) Mana does have advantages if you balance the other resources properly.

Specific itemization others have to tax themselves for or just can't get.

Lower CDs then resource less, better sustained than energy.

Each resource has advantages or disadvantages, though most of the time Mana is used to prevent spamming like Draven or Soraka.

Neither of those things are actually true in this game. Mana is just as much of a tax on mana users as it is on manaless champions because it does not give them any power (plus few mana items are even very good). Mana users have to buy mana items just to function. It's not a bonus for them. Getting to spend money on literally any other stat than mana is a huge advantage for manaless champions.

There is flat out no advantage to having mana in this game.

Epilogue of LifeDec 14, 20141 votes

cuz u dont run out with one combo late game...like poor Zed

Kuroi86Dec 14, 20143 votes

I really don't want to imagine how scary Zed would be if he were costless.

Epilogue of LifeDec 14, 20141 votes

lol except you rip his anus wide open by using QSS/Zhonyas....

Kuroi86Dec 14, 20141 votes

It would still negate his ult. In return, his shadow and shiriken no longer has any gating. He can spam that for DAYS.

Epilogue of LifeDec 15, 20141 votes

but he wont burst...

Kuroi86Dec 15, 20141 votes

Not nearly as much no.

But dat poke. o.0

Epilogue of LifeDec 15, 20141 votes

it still has CD, and u can always juke it...how do u hit skillshots on someone like Udyr...

Kuroi86Dec 15, 20141 votes

Depends on your range.

FPS games and some fighter plane games are good practice, leading your target with your shots.

Part of why I enjoy playing Varus.

Epilogue of LifeDec 16, 20141 votes

but then theres also champs like LB...

Kuroi86Dec 16, 20141 votes

Lol, even skill shot champs need a counter. Utility/CC can outplay mobility, mobility can outplay CC.
It falls into the realm of skill there. Given the right build, Ashe 1v1 with Kali, if Ashe lands her ult, well she can very well end Kali without losing much of any health.

Epilogue of LifeDec 17, 20141 votes

But then LB can port four times under 3 seconds...

Kuroi86Dec 17, 20141 votes

Yep, high mobility, highly squishy. She's got a lot of damage and a lot of mobility, and is hoping no one has enough time to right click or she misses a port and ends up catching a CC.

Everyone likes to argue that some champs have no down sides. I really can't understand those arguments.

Epilogue of LifeDec 17, 20141 votes

Basically all assassin hope they don't get CCed and dont miss anything.

Kuroi86Dec 17, 20141 votes

Agreed. That's the trade off for assassins. You have no survivability outside of running away. You can't build any tankiness, you'd never get any kills that way.