Why is Shyvana worse post-devourer than she was pre-devourer?

PapaGreg21··40 votes·4,258 views

I understand the item made her stupid strong but the last 2 buffs were so weak sauce compared to the twin bite nerf that they are not going to make much of an impact at all imo. This is the same thing as Sejuani's flail of the northern winds getting it's damage cut in HALF and then months later getting a dinky compensation for her permafrost. Except this case is even worse because Devourer is just completely gone whereas Sejuani still gets a weak cinderhulk to use now.

88 Comments

D3m37r127 votes

Riot doesn't go back on nerfs. They will try to buff shyv in every other way but twin bite.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

They actually will go back on nerfs, Lulu had an attack speed boost on her W when she was released. It's just going to take about four years before they buff her Q again.

Sire Hippington12 votes

she didn't have an AS boost, she had an AP boost, thats not the same

SpecterVonBaren8 votes

Hhm, that's my bad then. I'll downvote myself for that one.

DeathBot6668 votes

What about Velkoz then. the had removed his passive stacking on his ultimate with the mage update, but added it back a couple patches later.

Slamurai Jack7 votes

{quoted}

What about Velkoz then. the had removed his passive stacking on his ultimate with the mage update, but added it back a couple patches later.

As a heavy Vel'koz player, his kit just didn't function properly without the ult adding at least some stacks. So glad they changed it back.

Sire Hippington6 votes

yea, and once she gtes to storng in the jungle again, they will nerf her while still keeping the unneccesary 20% increased damage vs monsters on W. Rip toplane shy...

Mistress Shyvana13 votes

Yeah I feel you OP, it's depressing. They gonna keep giving her tiny tiny buffs. In places she don't need. Except the one she does need to her twin bite. Then after a few months of her weakness she will eventually be so overtuned, an item will drop that pushes her over and she will get gutted even harder.

The Yetii Rider9 votes

Shyvana is terrible because all she brings to a team is damage. Melee characters who only do damage either have to deal insane amounts of damage (like Yi) or they are completely useless (like Tryndamere).

This is excluding assassins, because assassins overcome the weakness of being melee with extreme mobility. True melee damage dealers are useless because kiting is so effective.

GULAG 4 U5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=211dipeA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-27T16:19:24.934+0000)

Shyvana is terrible because all she brings to a team is damage. Melee characters who only do damage either have to deal insane amounts of damage (like Yi) or they are completely useless (like Tryndamere).

This is excluding assassins, because assassins overcome the weakness of being melee with extreme mobility. True melee damage dealers are useless because kiting is so effective.

Trynd is not useless.

IAMS4T4N3 votes

sated was stupid strong on her, and she honestly just needs a rework. shes with irelia in the sense that when their items are strong, they're stupid overpowered and when they're not, they're just "meh"

Slamurai Jack3 votes

Just build this shit. Shyvana item 1416 item 3078 item 3748. 1 shot kids. Profit.

SlashStriker2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=211dipeA,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-07-27T18:22:47.658+0000)

Just build this shit. Shyvana item 1416 item 3078 item 3748. 1 shot kids. Profit.

where is your lifesteal / sustain?

Slamurai Jack6 votes

You don't need it. You'll either have won or lost any fight before lifesteal becomes relevant.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=211dipeA,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2016-07-27T18:41:17.465+0000)

You don't need it. You'll either have won or lost any fight before lifesteal becomes relevant.

I'm sure people will just let you run up to them and smack them in the face instead of nuking your brains out... you need lifesteal or massive tankiness to surive.

Lord Galvatron2 votes

You don't need lifesteal and rest of your items being purely defensive after that is your sustain. item 3153 is a noob trap and there are much better items on her. Honestly you don't even need Trinity force because the damage with 3-4 health item Titanic Hydra plus your already insane attack speed means you're a tank that chunks hardcore.

SlashStriker1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Goon Platoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=211dipeA,comment-id=000b00000001,timestamp=2016-07-27T18:59:01.483+0000)

You don't need lifesteal and rest of your items being purely defensive after that is your sustain. item 3153 is a noob trap and there are much better items on her. Honestly you don't even need Trinity force because the damage with 3-4 health item Titanic Hydra plus your already insane attack speed means you're a tank that chunks hardcore.

the last shyvana thought the same until she med 25% lifesteal Yi with infinity edge and bork

Lord Galvatron2 votes

the last shyvana thought the same until she med 25% lifesteal Yi with infinity edge and bork

  1. If you picked Shyv into Yi you are a monkey.

  2. Yi is a duelist, I don't care what you build on Shyv you are still going to dunked by him one on one.

  3. That being said, with the Bloodrazor plus Titanic combo your other items against a Yi should be akin to a Thornmail and a Randuins which does give you a chance against him, and at the least buys you time for the rest of your team to help you out (you have 4 other people on your team for a reason).

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

yes farm all game to get a item 3078 3733 gold and item 3748 3500 on a jungler income who has weak early ganks. we are talking 7200 gold not including , pots, boots, wards, and jungle item item 1416 2625 gold so for your 3 items she would need 10k in gold and if the game last long enough she can get the items, but the way game snowball now its most likely you complete those items fast enough

Sire Hippington3 votes

The one and pretty much only strnegth of shy is that she clears damn fast and has a strong early duel, so she can clear her entire jungle+counterjungle. As a result, she's prettymuch the only jungler that can go for such an expensive built regulary as her powerfarming nets enough gold. Again, this is the one single reason why she's viable at all atm. Her clearspeeds gives her a gold and xp advantage, and as soon as her oponents catch up, she's screwed. This is reflected by both her winrate/gamelegth(winrate is fine till 40 min, then it drops massively cause shy already ahd lvl 18 and full gear and the rest now catches up), and her doing shit at top becuase top has a hard cap on the max xp/farm you can get out of it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

correct me if im wrong... but i would say any laner should have double to three times more farm then junglers. just as an example a solo laner get levels faster and items faster/more gold then junglers hence why there has been issues in the amount of experience a jungler gets from the jungle and being under leveled.

some of that is due to roaming to lanes to gank but on a consistence basis there is more creeps to farm in lane then in jungle. typically 6 creeps per wave every 30 secs compared to 2 golems, 4 chicken heads, 3 doggies, a big froggie and 2 buff camps with 2 mini mes. buff camps only respawn every 5 mins? and typically every 45 secs on smaller camps.

i do know that the monsters give more gold then a single lane minion and i know with the item 1041 gives special bonus experience but why is that? its is cuz a jungler has less gold resources and income then laners. hence why a champ like Shyvana who is farm dependent and item dependent isnt as viable as other junglers. i will agree that if she gets her 140cs and gets a full build she is a nightmare to deal with 1 vs 1 but problem still lies she has no cc. a jungler with no cc isnt a good jungler.

i would prefer on my team any number of other junglers : Amumu Diana Ekko Elise Fiddlesticks Fizz Gragas Graves Hecarim JarvanIV Jax Khazix Kindred LeeSin Malphite Maokai Mordekaiser Nautilus Nidalee Nocturne Olaf Pantheon Poppy RekSai Rengar Rumble Sejuani Skarner Trundle Udyr Vi Volibear MonkeyKing Zac

Sire Hippington2 votes

Within 90 sec, you gain 400g from minions(9 range, 9melee and 1 siege) IF you get ever single cs. if we asume 1 minion missed per wave, it's 3x20 less so ~340g Within 90sec, you can clear all small camps once for a total of ~370g, not inclueding buff camps, scuttlers or what ever you could get in the opposing jungle.

So by just farming your own small camps as soon as they spawn, you already can earn more gold than a sololaner with near perfect cs. And a well played shy will not only clear her own jungle in that time, but also scuttlers and usually succesfully counterjungle. Same with nidalee. She has the highest Counter Jungle CS and the seconf most CS in her own jungle amongst all champs and more average gold earned per game than Anivia....

For most junglerrs you are correct, though 'double to three times more farm then junglers' is vastly exeggerated, unless you mean only the number of cs rather than the resulting gold. Most junglers don't clear/path fast enough to get all camps within 90 sec, mostly because of the time they spend on ganks, lurking for counterganks and other stuff. And there is the potential of getting counterjungled. In the jungle, you can actually directly deny the cs of your opponent.

Also, i said nothing about shy beeing strong overall though she does perform decent atm, a solid 50% winrate in the jungle with ~57% on experienced players, which is above average. I said whatever strength she has right now, is caused purely by her clearspeed and the resulting gold lead. And in xp, she usually is even or ahead of the soolanes. Her kit it's self is rather weak atm, as soon as she has to fight on even gold/xp, she usually struggles, which is why her toplane is so bad, as she hardly will get a meaningfull xp/gold lead over her opponent since she has little killpresure in lane and can't just powerfarm for a lead, as her opponent will usually get about the same farm. So in the end, the only reason she currently is viable is her artificially increased clearspeed with the 20% bonus damage vs monsters on her W. But instead of removeing that and giving her the buffs she actually needs, they keep that and tinker around with half assed buffs that don't make her any more statisfying to play nore help her sololane, because they are afraid her jungle might get to strong again....

Samflash31 votes

Why TriForce?

Slamurai Jack5 votes

It gives you mobility, it gives you burst, it gives you CDR, it gives you 40% AS, and it gives you HP, all on a good build path. What more do you want?

Samflash31 votes

Hmm...okay. I just had a question

Tri Force or Black Cleaver...which is stronger on her and why?

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Depends on how tanky the enemy team is. Squishy? Triforce. Tanky? Cleaver. Gonna be splitting all game? Triforce. I get Triforce probably 90% of the time nowadays, but Cleaver has its uses.

The Loveless2 votes

I find triforce to be good vs tanks too

48983507DEL11 votes

something not so expensive

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Your alternative is Titanic Hydra which is only 200 gold cheaper.

48983507DEL12 votes

well you said to build both. which is really fucking expensive.

LankPants1 votes

You have 0 armour or MR outside of passive and not enough HP to compensate for it for ~10K gold. Sounds like a plan, if the enemy team has literally 0 CC it may work, as long as they don't attack you.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

[deleted]

LankPants2 votes

You're investing 10k gold into damn near pure offence. That is a long time into the game to not buy defence. Your build most likely fails to fight properly until 4 items, you can't go into a teamfight as a pure offensive Shyvana and expect it to work.

I did see your full build, but full builds generally don't matter that much. You're not going to get the ~16k gold for your full build every game and there's no way you can farm long enough to complete even 4 items.

Your 3 item build is completely dysfunctional against a competent team and almost as expensive as most junglers 4 item builds. Trinity Force is basically paying for 1.5 items, you could buy a GA or a Rands and a Giants Belt for that same gold and it would do far more.

ZephyrDrake3 votes

but... but... AP shyv is good guys! we all know how many AP items Shyv actually likes to build! and her ult coming faster is also good!... as long as you don't mind still having a buggy ass ult that fails to hit and/or displace anything at all when it clearly should...

yeah these "buffs" really do nothing at all to help her why do i care about some AP ratios that i am never going to use? or having a buggy ult come back a few seconds faster?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

BECAUSE STATED DEVOURER WAS FUKIN BROKEN. who would think you take away a broken item and a champ that wasnt viable prior to it isnt prior afterwards. the problem with Shyvana is she has zero gank pressure at all and even at 6 with her ult it is weak. she is weak early and is a farm jungler. she provides no cc in ganks so to get a kill/sucessful gank your laner has to provide the cc and engage instead of being able to engage as the jungler. so you take a jungler with no cc, weak early game, item/gold dependent vs a jungler who can set up ganks, provide early gank/kill pressure and is more utility based that can be useful by their kit will always outshine a Shyvana

Slamurai Jack4 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=211dipeA,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-07-27T23:20:23.305+0000)

she is weak early and is a farm jungler.

Shyv is not weak early. She has weak ganks early. Those are not the same thing. Shyv's early game is actually extremely strong as a duelist and counterjungler, just not as a ganker.

100T iLL2 votes

she was nerfed because of devour

devour was nerfed

they didn't revert her nerfs

Dominick Destine12 votes

{quoted}

she was nerfed because of devour

devour was nerfed

they didn't revert her nerfs

So she got Sejuani'd?

KoggyStyle2 votes

Warwick'd*

D3m37r11 votes

Atleast it wasn't olafed

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

its not so much that shyv is weaker as it is the fact that devourer champs are no longer being picked so shyvanna can shit on them

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

its not so much that shyv is weaker as it is the fact that devourer champs are no longer being picked so shyvanna can shit on them

though most devouer champions shit on shyvanna. ww jax and yi can duel her fairly well. so can xin

Slamurai Jack2 votes

They can beat Shyvana with equal gold. Thing is, they shouldn't ever have equal gold because they're not Shyvana against Shyvana.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

though most devouer champions shit on shyvanna. ww jax and yi can duel her fairly well. so can xin

http://web.archive.org/web/20150716000352/http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana

xD shyv was winning against those champs 50% minimum

edit

aside from xin

General Esdeath 2 votes

"OK guys we're buffing Shyvana! She now has 10 more damage on her E (Flame Breath)!"

Tobias Brackner2 votes

I still see Shyvana kickin ass when she shows up and Sejuani still has crazy amounts of dmg so I don't see what the problem is.

Shrek Luigi1 votes

What if you bought cinderhulk on Shyvana? It's not exactly a poor item-choice on her.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shrek Luigi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=211dipeA,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2016-07-28T02:08:53.305+0000)

What if you bought cinderhulk on Shyvana? It's not exactly a poor item-choice on her.

It's ok, but it's wasted potential. Shyvana's synergy with on hit items is so insanely high that not going Bloodrazer is pretty hard to justify.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=211dipeA,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2016-07-28T04:45:06.329+0000)

It's ok, but it's wasted potential. Shyvana's synergy with on hit items is so insanely high that not going Bloodrazer is pretty hard to justify.

item 3748 pretty much all you need lol

Twerk a Fish1 votes

Last times I played Shyvana jungle (a month or two ago) I said "what the fuck is this? it's so OP!!" and continued to take every camp on he rift in few seconds and dominated every early-mid game...

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