Daily reminder that Zeal items are still GROSSLY underpriced.

WoonStruck·Sep 18, 2017·91 votes·3,734 views

Title.

######Maybe having two+ core items at only ~2600 gold on the hardest carry class isn't healthy. That's not even counting GA or LDR.

91 Comments

invisiblecat1Sep 18, 201727 votes

Meanwhile "The AP Statikk Shiv" item 3285 costs 3200 gold and is just a bad item in general

ModAcademy KaynSep 19, 20174 votes

The "Ap Statikk Shiv" does not fulfill the same reason for being bought, nor the qualities, of a Zeal item. Statick is meant for waveclear, and it's multiplicative AS stat, which increases damage from ADC's, ya know, multiplicative-ly.

Luden's was meant to be a replacement to DFG, an item that gives more damage on top of damage. Luden's primary purpose is not to add in yet even more Waveclear to Mages, but for more damage only. It's AOE is meant for teamfights, more than it is for waveclear.

In other words, this is an ignorant comparison, only comparing 1 similar aspect of the two items/item groups.

aspects1Sep 19, 20174 votes

its not a bad item if it was a bad item lit wouldnt be built (ahem item 3056 )

invisiblecat1Sep 19, 20171 votes

But what other options would you have for AP items? Exactly, meanwhile what other options do you have for tank items

nm1010Sep 18, 201714 votes

Yeah I just realized that like half of adc's core item choices are under 3k gold.

WoonStruckSep 18, 20177 votes

They usually end up with 4 or 5 items under 3k if you count boots.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 19, 20171 votes

Which sounds bad until you realize that the same is true of every class in the game.

WoonStruckSep 19, 20176 votes

What, you mean tanks, which is more due to nerfing than efficiency?

And support itemization because they're budget items?

That's a lot different from the AFK farming class having 4-5 items being ~2600g or less.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 18, 201712 votes

Why? Because they're approximately less expensive than other builds?

That's not a good enough reason, because there are way more factors than just "total build cost". It has to do with per-item effectiveness.

An assassin is generally effective with around half of an item. Typically item 3134 , although item 3144 or item 3057 works as well, depending on the specific champion. That's from 1050g (for someone like Fizz, who rushes Sheen for Lich Bane) to 1500g (Akali, who sometimes rushes Cutlass for Gunblade).

A mage comes online with about one complete item. Nearly all of the time, it's item 3165 , for 2900g. Some use item 3027 , for 2700g and 6+ minutes to hit effectiveness. Enchanters do the same, except with whatever enchanter item is the meta at the time (currently Ardent, for 2300g) combined with a 500g starting item (technically 850g, but we're ignoring costs for the first part of it, as we ignore Doran's items for others) for a total of 2800g.

Note mages can still do things without these items, they just kinda suck before they have them.

Juggernauts come online with about one and a half items, typically Black Cleaver and the resistance component of their first item (Chain armor or Specter's Cowl). 3000g+800/1200g, for a total between 3800g and 4200g. Riven, Kled, and Fiora come online here, as well, and Yasuo starts to be relevant, as he gets 100% crit.

Tanks come online with around two items. Either two full defensive items, or a semi-aggressive item (Titanic or Sunfire) with a defensive one. There are a lot of options for this, but it sits around 6000g. Yasuo actually becomes decently relevant here, as he completes his Infinity Edge, although he won't be teamfighting for shit yet, because he has no sustain or defense at all. Mordekaiser also becomes relevant here, or at least as relevant as he can be.

Team phase starts about right now, with at least 2 outer turrets gone.

Bruisers tend become relevant with around three items, although it ranges between 2 and 4. Gunblade is a must, as well as a defensive item, combined with Rageblade, Triforce, or Titanic. This is around 9000g, because these are a lot of expensive items.

Pantheon caps off about here, as well. Most assassins tend to, as well, as they have to start building defensive after their third item.

Around three and a half items is when marksmen tend to become actually important. IE, Zeal, BorK or Bloodthirster, and half of their tank-shredding item. Before, they were kept alive solely by the support. Now, they're actually able to 1v1 tanks, juggernauts, and other marksmen, as long as the opponent isn't fed, and doesn't close to them. 2600 for zeal item, 3700 for BT, 3400 for IE, and 1300g for Last Whisper, for a total of 11000g. Sure, they do damage before then, but they'll still suck ass in any team fight, because they'll be killed by stray damage. Before now, the only thing keeping them alive is the support. Now, they actually become somewhat self-sufficient.

Most other champions cap off here, as well, as almost everyone takes a truly defensive item. Tanks pick up that last bit of extra durability, but it's not as important.

Bob the ToastrSep 18, 201717 votes

Marksmen really only need these two: item 3031 item 3087 which is 6000 gold.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 18, 20172 votes

Two items? Neither of which have sustain, or any tank-killing properties?

Or any method at all to keep them alive through a fight?

Look. Just because the enemy Trist kicks your braindead Rengar's ass, because he missed literally everything, including his ult's leap, with those two items, doesn't mean that it's enough for Trist to actually do anything to anyone with a quarter of a brain.

Bob the ToastrSep 19, 201713 votes

Crit is sort of a tank-killing property. Also, who needs items with sustain when Warlord's Bloodlust and this piece of toast exist: item 3504 ?

ModAcademy KaynSep 19, 20172 votes

While Crit itself is pretty good, it's useless without some Armor Pen behind it. Remember that infamous video of Draven chucking like 35 axes at Poppy, and her advancing regardless? Despite his build, he had no Armor pen, and Poppy was taking very little damage.

Bob the ToastrSep 19, 20172 votes

I haven't seen the video, but I would imagine the Poppy was pretty fed or the Draven was pretty behind. I can't make any definitive statements though, because I haven't seen it.

CorvidSep 19, 20172 votes

Most need those two plus item 3094

Votable JesterSep 18, 20177 votes

ADCs do not die from stray damage in teamfights. They die from being the target of at least two enemies during teamfights, and those two enemies may hit other enemies with stray damage.

Even in the beginning of the mid-game, adcs have significant enough of dps to be a threat in a teamfight, especially once their mage/assassin has blown their cooldowns. They also have that enchanter support that, as you said, came online pretty early to keep them safe and deal more damage (at least currently).

Sure ADCs need what you mentioned to be able to 1v1, but they're never in a 1v1. Even with even numbers in a fight, they deal enough damage that they can't be ignored and are durable enough to not fall over from just stray damage (especially with a dedicated sup).

DuskDaUmbreonSep 18, 20172 votes

Unless the ADC has Last Whisper, or is very fed, they're not even scratching a tank.

And it's insanely easy to kill an ADC before they have sustain. Afterwords, it's only a minor difficulty. But until they can actually sustain, they won't be surviving any fight greater than a 3v3 under their own turret. That's part of the reason we have supports babysit them, so that they can actually keep the marksman alive long enough to miss 90% of their CS anyways.

Votable JesterSep 19, 20175 votes

You still have to damage the adc though. Don't pretend there are spells the size of Ziggs's ult flying around teamfights just hitting everyone.

CorvidSep 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1wuVNZJj,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2017-09-18T23:37:17.675+0000)

ADCs do not die from stray damage in teamfights.

Quinn does QQ

I know, not a traditional adc. Im just salty because I got aoe'd yesterday with no direct damage. It still hurts.

SagaxwikiSep 18, 20174 votes

Your hypothetical marksmen build is nothing like what is currently being built. The current build path for ADCs is item 1038 first, finish a item 3086 item, finish item 3508 or item 3031 , finish another with tier 2 boots thrown in there somewhere. That comes out to 9700g which is very comparable to the meta mage ( item 3165 + item 3151 + item 3135 + item 3020 = 9750g) and tank ( item 3065 / item 3001 + item 3742 / item 3143 / item 3068 + item 3193 / item 3083 + tier 2 boots = 9400/9750g) 3 item spikes.

Looking at 2 item spikes we again see that marksmen's builds are similarly priced to other roles with item 3031 + completed item 3086 item = 6000g, item 3165 + item 3151 = 6000g, and item 3065 + item 3143 = 5700g. The only time that marksmen are noticeably weaker than other roles is after 1 item is completed but before 2 items are completed, but that only accounts for about 5-6 minutes of the game.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 19, 20172 votes

...Have you actually even seen a marksman?

Have you actually ever seen a marksman fighting? They have almost no chance against a burst champion, they lose to nearly every DPS champion until they have sustain, and they can't even scratch a tank until they at least have Last Whisper.

You also listed only three items. If you compare only price to total items, marksmen come out ahead, you're right, there.

However, marksmen need more items than other classes to actually do anything. As Ahri, I can get by with a Morellonomicon to get kills. Gunblade just means I can pop most squishies. Shen, I get by once I get Titanic and a true defensive item. Akali, I can start racking up kills as soon as I have Cutlass and level 6. Diana, Abyssal mask is all I need. Sona? I just need whatever mana regeneration item is the most meta one - Athene's, Redemption, or Ardent.

Ashe? BorK, Hurricane, IE, and Last Whisper

Xayah? Essence Reaver, Death's Dance, Shiv/Hurricane, Last Whisper

Cait? IE, RFC, Bloodthirster, Last Whisper.

...Seeing a pattern? The only champion I need a comparable number of items on is Mordekaiser. Fucking Mordekaiser.

SagaxwikiSep 19, 20175 votes

Did you even read my post? I understand that other classes peak harder than marksmen between 1 and 2 items, but past 2 items, marksmen are as or more effective than other classes. With zerkers, IE, and a zeal item, an ADC can easily have 1.2 AS, 140 AD, and 30% crit chance which gives ~260 dps to the target dummy. Comparatively, taking into account the additional burn due to the dummy having 10k hp, a mage (specifically Syndra) with morellos, liandries, and sorcs will only do about ~250 dps to the target dummy. So at literally 2 items, a marksmen already has more damage potential than a mage.

Moreover, if you are building a life-steal item as your third item as any ADC right now, you deserve to lose. With how strong tanks are right now, how weak assassins/divers are, and the prevalence of shielding supports with ardent censor, ADCs don't need to build defensively at all right now.

ProfDrDeathSep 18, 201711 votes

Zeal upgrades (not Zeal itself, though) should probably be more towards the 2800 to 3000 gold range (without major increases in stats, too).

WoonStruckSep 18, 201712 votes

DING DING DING.

WE HAVE A WINNER.

ADC items should be ~80% gold efficient due to their multiplicative scaling and lack of downtime, relative to other classes. Not close to 100% gold efficient.

Its possible AD and AS is underpriced in general, considering the performance of assassins and on-hit champions any time they're viable.

SithesisLordSep 19, 20173 votes

Just PD alone should be 3200.

SEKAISep 18, 20179 votes

MasterYi item 1419 item 3117 item 3086

Need Gold 4 TentSep 19, 20176 votes

{quoted}

https://archive-media.nyafuu.org/wsr/image/1451/88/1451882173413.jpg

RIP Wriggles though

Pale PirateSep 18, 20177 votes

A Riot controlled economy sucks. They should let supply and demand regulate the item prices.

MorticianjohnSep 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=0 oxros piratis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1wuVNZJj,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-09-18T23:12:11.770+0000)

A Riot controlled economy sucks. They should let supply and demand regulate the item prices.

OMG the best idea ever. I never thought about that before but I would love to play under a supply and demand system.

big boi edriSep 19, 20171 votes

That's a great idea for a custom mode though

MogarlSep 19, 20171 votes

How would that work though?

Would the price increase in game or across games?

Would combine costs change? Could you get a situation where it's cheaper to buy the dirk than upgrade to longswords into one?

It's an interesting concept, longswords would be expensive as fuck though.

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 19, 20171 votes

lmaoo

KloqdqSep 18, 20176 votes

Marksmans items cost about 15000+ in total Mage items cost about 16000+ in total Fighter items cost about 15000+ in total.

The differences aren't all that much in total but what is important is a couple of things. The total value of these items, on average Marksmans have a waaay better spread of gold across their items rather than a lot of up front gold pre-item. The marksman class also generates the most gold on average as they are the most gold reliant class so their items will typically come faster if the marksman is farming properly. The final issue is the Marksman class has some of the best and most gold efficient items out of all classes. Marksmans are a class that scale with items yet they will on average get full build way faster than other classes. Why on earth they have such powerful items that all come to them cheaper on average while having the highest gold income is just freaking dumb. Please fix this bullshit item favoritism.

WoonStruckSep 18, 20178 votes

Let's be realistic here, since the '15000' doesn't really accurately convey anything.

A marksman's end-build is around 14700. item 3031 item 3094 item 3087 item 3026 item 3036 item 3006

A fighter's 5 item build is around 13300. item 3071 item 3748 item 3065 item 3742 item 3047 . A 6th item would have to cost 1400 in order to break even with an ADC's gold cost. The options range from 2400 item 3026 to 3600 item 3139 .

If you use item 3078 instead of item 3071 , tack another 733g on there.

That means you're spending anywhere between 1000g (1733 for TF) and 2600g (3333 for TF) more than the ADC...for much less effect.

For those curious, mage is ~16650 with item 3102 item 3165 item 3089 item 3020 item 3135 item 3285 give or take 500g for various swaps.

SanKakUSep 18, 20171 votes

[deleted]

WoonStruckSep 18, 20177 votes

At high MMR, nobody was wasting money on lifesteal, with the exception of the occasional counter-item.

AirKingNeoSep 18, 20175 votes

Except then the items wouldn't be gold efficient.

Typically ADC hate thread who has no idea how their bad ideas would impact the game.

GrReaper96Sep 19, 20174 votes

Then that would simply mean item 1042 is simply too cheap

AirKingNeoSep 19, 20171 votes

Not really. Rushing daggers early game is something only few champions can do, and even then flat AD is stronger.

HeresyHorusSep 19, 20172 votes

No need to rush a item 1042 since u can get it for free with attack speed quints which are the most ridiculous runes out there in terms of efficiency period.

kojikomosSep 19, 20172 votes

I have the feeling you lose to other players in pvp a lot who are using zeal items.

[sg-ahri-2] (no offense, just opinion)

Total EclipseSep 19, 20173 votes

posts like this kind of bug me. you have to understand that league is a very artistic game. its hard to keep everything balanced when everything is so different. stuff is going to be overpowered. and if people use overpowered stuff, people are going to lose to it. that doesnt mean people are just complaining because they have lost to it-- some stuff is truly just too strong. so get over yourself and stop acting like people are just whining when the state of the game really is a certain way.

PEEPEEPÖÖPÖÖSep 19, 20172 votes

i love how everyone is like "ADCS ARE BROKEN THEY ARE IN EVERY LANE NERF EM NERF THEIR ITEMIZATION NERF EVERYTHING RELATED TO ADC" every post on boards ever lul [sg-miss-fortune]

StandgroundingSep 19, 20172 votes

They have a reason.

Unironic SJWSep 19, 20172 votes

I agree but Riot's changes to game pace have put them in a double bind:

Balance ADC items appropriately - ADCs don't get to have fun because they spike at 30-35 mins, oh too bad the game was decided at 15-20 minutes and with Rift allowing games to end pre 20 mins, and how easy Baron is to take if you're even somewhat ahead or you get a single pick, there's not much you can do to stall the game out even if your comp outscales) Balance ADC items around current game pace - everyone else doesn't get to have fun because i'm lategame with IE Shiv RFC at 25-30 mins with ardent janna as my support so it's my world you're just living in it

If you want to push back ADC power spikes, fine, but if you do then you ought to rebalance game flow so ADCs can GET to said spikes more than once every 5 games.

CarnicoreSep 18, 20171 votes

They're cheap because crit chance is a weak stat if you don't have Infinity Edge. Which is their most expensive item.

KuroCaliberSep 19, 20179 votes

200% damage is not a weak stat.

VallalanSep 19, 20174 votes

its actually not. IE/ER are 200 gold cheaper than BT now.

Mighty MorteinSep 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They're cheap because crit chance is a weak stat if you don't have Infinity Edge. Which is their most expensive item.

Say an ADC purchases both item 3094 and item 3087 . That's 60% crit chance for 5200 gold. Sure, they don't have a lot of physical damage but if they buy a item 1038 , that's enough damage for them to sustain until that I.E purchase. Plus all the attack speed both items give (which is 65% combined), they do have a fair amount of DPS with 2 and a half items. Crit isn't weak. You're just silly to not buy I.E for even more insane amounts of damage.

Crit needs a rework. It's too strong. It's why Ezreal was shoved into jungle.

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 19, 20171 votes

you also buy ER before you buy the zeal item. the AD from the main item is usually better than the attack speed item when you're deciding which to finish first.