Do you think Zoe needs a rework? As sad as that sounds.

Resolution·Aug 15, 2018·80 votes·16,725 views

Honestly, you're going to see constant adjusts (Nerfs) to numbers in the hopes it keeps her base kit in line. At what point do we step back and question if it's the Champion design that's the problem and not just ratios/scaling.

You're going to have her gutted to the ground because her abilities are too toxic towards the play experience for others. It's not really going to solve her problem at the core.

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but this feels like a champion that's been destined for a rework since launch itself.

113 Comments

SoundChaosDebugAug 15, 201847 votes

Shes gonna turn out like azir did, had a lot of cool shit you can do but it's never balanced in the hands of people who know how to play.

ResolutionAug 15, 201812 votes

{quoted}

Shes gonna turn out like azir did, had a lot of cool shit you can do but it's never balanced in the hands of people who know how to play.

Haven't seen an Azir in well over 200 games lately, so that's concerning, to say the least.

EvilUnicornLordAug 15, 20182 votes

Last one I saw was in ARAM so he doesn't count.

SnowdriftAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Haven't seen an Azir in well over 200 games lately, so that's concerning, to say the least.

I’ve encountered two azir only players like a week or two ago and I saw one of them in two games in a row. Seems only one tricks find a purpose to him. I don’t think gutting champions to unplayable states is good for the game so I’m not sure what they can do to Zoe... I honestly don’t have major issues with her in the games I’ve played against her. Even if she’s fed she’s not always able to solo carry, I had an enemy team flat out surrender the other day even though the Zoe was like 10/2; no one else was doing well and we had outsieged... I just think her w is a bit overloaded with the damage but I still like the idea of stealing actives; it’s an interesting mechanic.

Child of the PitAug 15, 201820 votes

{quoted}

Shes gonna turn out like azir did, had a lot of cool shit you can do but it's never balanced in the hands of people who know how to play.

With the exception that Zoe isn't nearly as hard to play as Azir, and about twice as easy to pick up.

SpongebobIsLifeAug 15, 201817 votes

but 2 times as cancerous.

Votable JesterAug 15, 20184 votes

That definitely isn't true. Don't forget Azir's harass was effectively undodgable and he had no losing matchups at the time (people went LB just to be on even footing in lane).

CapnMorganFr3manAug 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

What the hell is cool about landing a single ability and then an auto to nuke your opponent? Theres about a trillion different things you can do with a kit as complex as Azirs but what Zoes entire kit is tailored around literally landing one skillshot for damage. She has her spellthief as well sure, but that's just rng and is by no means a reliable source of damage.

Destello AzulAug 15, 201825 votes

https://mk0intowindows84fvao.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/View-size-of-all-files-in-Recycle-Bin-step-first.jpg

Nanuk PihoqahiakAug 15, 20182 votes

This gives her hope of popping back out. Just take a magnet to the hard drive.

BlåbæretAug 15, 201823 votes

No. She needs to be deleted.

Teridax68Aug 15, 201813 votes

I do think she needs a rework, yes. Zoe has proven herself to be extremely difficult to balance, and monumentally frustrating to play against, mainly because there is a clash between several of her core design elements. She's a champion designed to one-shot, but the way in which she one-shots is fundamentally unhealthy, providing too little opportunity for opponents to react. As with all CertainlyT champions, she's extremely punishing, but has many options to avoid getting punished, and the experiment of her random access to summoner spells and items has failed resoundingly, generating extremely unhealthy scenarios that have required a ton of tuning without all that much improvement.

Many parts of her kit are completely disjointed from the rest (her innate and W especially have little interaction with anything else), and her very fantasy as a trickster mage is left utterly unsatisfied, as the way in which she plays is neither subtle nor focused on tricks. At best, she is gimmicky. All of this is on top of standard design tropes that, if left alone, would still make her irritating to deal with, namely the combination of her hard CC on E and her Q damage, which combine to reduce all of her counterplay down to basically just one ability. Her kit is broken right down to its core, and is quite possibly one of the worst designs in League's history, with the one thing she has going for her being that she's sometimes fun to play.

Stuff I'd change on her:

First off, make her mechanics follow the rules properly. She shouldn't be able to recast Q while being rendered unable to cast, and she shouldn't be able to blink back to her original location when rendered unable to use a gapcloser. With this, she'd have one degree of "im so speshul screw the rules" taken away from her, to the benefit of opponents who'd get to punish her appropriately.
Swap out her W and R, and strip Spell Thief down to the bare minimum: remove its RNG minion bubbles, and remove the unnecessary speed boost + Ahri W on activation, so that it's just her being able to copy items and summoner spells from champion casts. Maybe allow her to copy effects from allies as well. This might mean giving Spell Thief just one rank, in which case give the rest of Zoe's abilities 6 ranks.
Replace her current innate entirely. Personally, I'd opt to let her pop minions with her basic attacks for an instant kill, perhaps on some sort of internal cooldown, so that she can maneuver her other abilities through them and not need waveclear in the rest of her kit.
Focus the E into being either a pure skillshot or a pure deployable trap, but not both at the same time (I'd personally go for the latter). Additionally, invert the sleep effect, so that waking an enemy up from sleep renders them momentarily untargetable, instead of dealing bonus damage. That way, enemies get an opportunity to outplay Zoe by using this grace period, instead of getting doubly punished by just one effect. This could potentially warrant removing the drowsy effect completely, so that enemies are immediately put to sleep.
Make the Q visible to enemies at all times, including through Fog of War, and remove its AoE. Additionally, change its damage increase to time spent out on the field, rather than distance traveled (so that there's a reason to hold onto the first Q cast). If the above is implemented, massively increase its damage so that it can legitimately one-shot on its own when done properly (i.e. not when fired at point-blank range).
Rebalance Zoe accordingly, most likely with buffs. Aside from buffing her Q damage, I would recommend increasing her double-blink range, her sleep maximum duration, and her casting ability via mana/cost buffs. The end result should be a versatile champion who can put people out of combat via sleep and one-shots, and so at a good distance, but who should also be punishable if one manages to get close to her or outplay her big ticket effects.

Votable JesterAug 15, 20181 votes

not need waveclear in the rest of her kit

ONE ability, not the rest of her kit. And her waveclear isn't anywhere near the best among mages.

With your changes, even with the buff to Q damage, she'd almost certainly become a support. If you don't have waveclear in mid you don't exist for the first 15 minutes of the game (or you zone off the enemy for the first 15 minutes making them not exist).

Also if her Q could only one-shot from super high range, she'd be weak as hell because the counterplay would be to run straight at her regardless. Also how would her damage to tanks be?

You've effectively made her more similar to old Nidalee but without any of the mobility or heal and one situational (since it's a trap) cc. Also Zoe would have even worse waveclear than old Nidalee because at least Nidalee could go in melee and swipe the minions all at once.

Teridax68Aug 15, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-08-15T16:55:21.615+0000)

ONE ability, not the rest of her kit. And her waveclear isn't anywhere near the best among mages.

It's not great, but it's still why her Q is AoE, which itself causes the ability to damage champions who outplay the ability properly by standing behind their minions or tank (same thing, really).

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-08-15T16:55:21.615+0000)

With your changes, even with the buff to Q damage, she'd almost certainly become a support. If you don't have waveclear in mid you don't exist for the first 15 minutes of the game (or you zone off the enemy for the first 15 minutes making them not exist).

Wait, so any mage who doesn't have amazing waveclear is a support now? Again, I'm not proposing to meaningfully change Zoe's current waveclearing power, I'm merely proposing to shift that effect towards something that doesn't dilute the counterplay to her main damage source, while also lowering her skill floor a little. Even if these changes did make Zoe a support, in spite of her anti-champion damage, why would that be a bad thing?

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-08-15T16:55:21.615+0000)

Also if her Q could only one-shot from super high range, she'd be weak as hell because the counterplay would be to run straight at her regardless.

So she'd be weak... because she'd have the actual counterplay one would expect from a mage? Because she'd actually have to make use of the tools in her kit and rise to the challenge it presents in order to one-shot people? Are you sure you're not letting your personal biases color your judgment here?

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-08-15T16:55:21.615+0000)

Also how would her damage to tanks be?

The same? I'm not proposing to give her true or max health damage, if that's what you're asking.

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-08-15T16:55:21.615+0000)

You've effectively made her more similar to old Nidalee but without any of the mobility or heal and one situational (since it's a trap) cc. Also Zoe would have even worse waveclear than old Nidalee because at least Nidalee could go in melee and swipe the minions all at once.

Nidalee never had CC against champions, and she was unhealthy precisely because her nuclear-tipped spears weren't always visible to her opponent. Making Zoe's Q visible at all times avoids that. You're also completely discounting the damage, utility, and mobility Zoe would inevitably obtain from Spell Thief, as well as the power provided by Portal Jump. Zoe would perhaps not have great waveclear (and she shouldn't need to), but she'd still contribute tremendous CC and burst. A champion does not need to be good at everything to have worth, and the fact that you expect her to do so just goes to show how overloaded Zoe is right now, and how far she needs to go in order to be brought in line.

Votable JesterAug 15, 20182 votes

Name a remotely META mage that has worse waveclear than you're suggesting for Zoe and is played mid. As to why it would be a bad thing, it would alienate her playerbase massively. That's something they try to avoid with reworks, even Galio was still plenty viable AP or tank.

She's already weak when enemies run straight at her, you'd make it so she'd be able to do almost nothing about it at all. Other mages like Lux and Xerath who are weak when an enemy gets on them have at least somewhat reliable of cc to help keep the enemy off. Zoe only has one tool and it already is less reliable than plenty of others (and would be even less reliable with your suggestion).

You're severely overestimating the power in Zoe's portal jump seeing as it puts you right back where you started. For one thing it's what gives her Q good range, meaning that you often can't use it for other stuff. You also overestimate Zoe's CC.

"Tremendous CC"? Are you kidding me? Anivia Annie AurelionSol Azir Cassiopeia Fizz Galio Heimerdinger Lissandra Lux Morgana Orianna Veigar Xerath Ziggs Zilean all have at least as good if not better cc than her, and that's restricting it to mid laners.

Of those, Anivia Annie Fizz Lux Morgana Veigar Xerath have at least comparable burst.

You're also assuming her W will give damage, utility, and mobility enough to make her strong after taking away its own strength.

I'd personally just make Zoe W have a cooldown and be usable without picking anything up (still have cooldown either way). I'd also reduce the damage on that (maybe no more than it currently is at but it just got nerfed). Then I'd see where that puts her and make other changes.

Teridax68Aug 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:48:07.172+0000)

Name a remotely META mage that has worse waveclear than you're suggesting for Zoe and is played mid. As to why it would be a bad thing, it would alienate her playerbase massively. That's something they try to avoid with reworks, even Galio was still plenty viable AP or tank.

Once again, I am explicitly telling you I am not aiming to make Zoe's waveclear worse. In the end, even if she were to have her waveclear nerfed, it wouldn't "alienate her playerbase massively", it'd just make you personally unhappy. In the end, right now it's just sounding like you want Zoe to have her waveclear buffed if she ever gets a rework.

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:48:07.172+0000)

She's already weak when enemies run straight at her, you'd make it so she'd be able to do almost nothing about it at all. Other mages like Lux and Xerath who are weak when an enemy gets on them have at least somewhat reliable of cc to help keep the enemy off. Zoe only has one tool and it already is less reliable than plenty of others (and would be even less reliable with your suggestion).

Good thing you mentioned Xerath, because Xerath's one hard-CC ability is explicitly less effective at close ranges than it is at a distance, and so precisely to make him easy to catch. Already now, Zoe's hard CC has the exact same effects at close and long ranges, and her Q can be recast even when silenced, meaning she has more tools than either of the champions you mentioned to deal with getting dived. Even with the rework I'm proposing, she'd still have hard CC that would not reduce in effectiveness at close ranges, so this really feels like a knee-jerk overreaction more than anything else.

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:48:07.172+0000)

You're severely overestimating the power in Zoe's portal jump seeing as it puts you right back where you started. For one thing it's what gives her Q good range, meaning that you often can't use it for other stuff. You also overestimate Zoe's CC.

I mentioned that it has some power, without specifying how much, whereas you seem to be pretending that it has no power at all. This is a tactic I've seen used far too often in Zoe-related echo chambers along here, along with the same argument being used to completely discount the power provided by her current W. Also, Zoe's CC is a slow coupled with a stun, coupled with damage amplification. It exists, and you cannot pretend otherwise in good faith.

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:48:07.172+0000)

"Tremendous CC"? Are you kidding me? all have at least as good if not better cc than her, and that's restricting it to mid laners.

Of those, have at least comparable burst.

Literally none of the champions you listed have "comparable burst", as strictly none of them are known for the bullshit one-shots Zoe is capable of. The closest example from what you've picked would be Fizz, and even then, he is complained about for his untargetability. Moreover, none of these champions can output hard CC from the range Zoe can, and the vast majority of the champions you brought up pay a price with either more spaced-out burst, or no real burst at all, in addition to individual drawbacks (many of these champions don't even have so much as a movement speed bonus, for example).

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:48:07.172+0000)

You're also assuming her W will give damage, utility, and mobility enough to make her strong after taking away its own strength.

I am assuming strictly nothing of the sort, as I explicitly asked to buff Zoe's strength on her post-rework kit as much as she needs, including through factors other than her current W. Once more, you seem to be trying to discount Zoe's ability to produce damage, utility, CC or mobility from her stolen summoner spells and items, simply because randomly obtaining those effects means nothing's forcing her to get any specific one among those effects. In this case, however, I'm proposing to remove the RNG component entirely, so you do not have that excuse to hide behind.

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=0012000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:48:07.172+0000)

I'd personally just make Zoe W have a cooldown and be usable without picking anything up (still have cooldown either way). I'd also reduce the damage on that (maybe no more than it currently is at but it just got nerfed). Then I'd see where that puts her and make other changes.

Zoe's W is itself unpopular even without the summoner spell/item effect, again because it goes completely against the idea of her requiring aim to kill targets. This is why the ability just got a serious nerf. Your proposal effectively solves strictly none of Zoe's problems, even though hers are serious and deeply embedded into her kit.

Sire HippingtonAug 15, 20188 votes

Yes, she needs the kind of rework that galio got, the one where about nothing of her old kit remains...

Recon1212Aug 15, 20183 votes

I mean, Gallo's Q is derived very heavily from both his old Q and E, done in a way that promotes more skill on the players behalf and more counter play for the player against him. Not to mention his W is clearly a reference to his ult and also has themes from his former W, while not as strong obviously, it's not like it doesn't get a nod in his new kit. Let's be real what could you expect, other than his R to be brought through the rework, his old kit was shit. Yeah, it was mostly skill shots, but it was boring and not interactive for both parties. While his kit is very different, it's not like his old kit was forgotten.

PhantomGGAug 15, 20187 votes

I been spamming this since day one, her W simply should not exist by any means, and is the core reason why her q is so absurdly painful.

Her W is a luck based ability that is dependent on minions and enemy team behavior.

If no one on the enemy team uses their sums, she has no W, so to give her strength, they put a shit load of damage into her Q and passive. R is pure mobility and E is focused for CC, while power boosting Q. So realisticly the on ly two ability in her kit that does damage is her Q and Passive. She literally does not have W if her opponents do not use a spell, but if they do, than what she gets is huge. You can't flash gank her, for u give her flash, you can't all in her with ignite for than you give her two offensive spells to use on you. You can't flash from her for than you give her flash.

But once again, if the opponents use no spells, she has no W, so all her damage is placed into q, to supplement this weakness.

Until W becomes a actually fair ability and is reworked, her Q must always be capable of doing a shit load of damage, which makes her quite literally impossible to balance.

BoulderoxAug 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I been spamming this since day one, her W simply should not exist by any means, and is the core reason why her q is so absurdly painful.

Her W is a luck based ability that is dependent on minions and enemy team behavior.

If no one on the enemy team uses their sums, she has no W, so to give her strength, they put a shit load of damage into her Q and passive. R is pure mobility and E is focused for CC, while power boosting Q. So realisticly the on ly two ability in her kit that does damage is her Q and Passive. She literally does not have W if her opponents do not use a spell, but if they do, than what she gets is huge. You can't flash gank her, for u give her flash, you can't all in her with ignite for than you give her two offensive spells to use on you. You can't flash from her for than you give her flash.

But once again, if the opponents use no spells, she has no W, so all her damage is placed into q, to supplement this weakness.

Until W becomes a actually fair ability and is reworked, her Q must always be capable of doing a shit load of damage, which makes her quite literally impossible to balance.

FUCKING THANK YOU this so much, but you also have to state that she can get a W from minions anyway, so if the enemy won't use a SS, it is on a timer until you can have a chance to get a free SS/item active anyways.

And seeing as riot wants to nerf Taliyah wall for giving vision, Zoe shouldn't be allowed to get a 100 range vision when someone uses a SS...

"Whenever enemy champions cast a Spells icon summoner spell or item active, they drop the corresponding Spell Shard onto the ground that grants Sight icon sight over a 100-radius area and remains for 40 seconds. "

which always struck me as odd, how does summoner 11 interact with that? can she see what camps the enemy jungler is on because they smited a camp???

LatetotheRaceAug 15, 20187 votes

Let's jax her for the time being. I don't think she's salvageable right now, and it would be best to put her on the back burner until she's better designed.

BlackEyesBlueAug 15, 20186 votes

Not until Yas and Zed get reworked for their un-balanceable kits.

They how many years amoung thr most popular picks now?

ThilmerAug 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Not until Yas and Zed get reworked for their un-balanceable kits.

They how many years amoung thr most popular picks now?

Guess who designed these two….

Weiss GuertenaAug 16, 20182 votes

Pretty much. People can say whatever they want, but Zed jumping on top of you, completely whiffing both Q casts - thing supposed to be his main source of damage, mind you - and still 100-0ing you because Electrocute+Ignite is miles more cancerous than anything Zoe can pull off. Because with Zoe I can at least dodge her bubble, which you'll agree is a marginally higher amount counterplay than "don't exist within a screen's distance of Zed starting from level 6 and until you finish Zhonya's". Alternatively, you can replace Zed in above paragraph with, say, Fizz or LeBlanc and nothing would change. All champions with potential to 100-0 someone purely through point-and-click damage and mobility to easily get within range for it.

Flower BòyAug 15, 20186 votes

Im the only one who doesnt have a problem with zoe? the only time i thought shes op was when minions could drop teleport

JadeHammerAug 16, 20181 votes

I've never had a problem with her, and that's coming from someone who was a midlane main when she first came out (I'm fill now) like yes she was kinda annoying to lane against cause of her E Q poke, but no different than Xerath or Lux or any other poke champion. If anything tbh she's a bit easier because her Q is heavily telegraphed. Also everyone always complains about her "mobility" ????? What mobility? Her W passive? The ms speed is hardly worth raging about and if you don't want her to flash after you don't flash away, take some other summoner if you want. Her ult is only pseudo mobility, if she uses it you know exactly where she is about to be. It's like a really bad version of LB W. as far as her burst. What burst mage doesn't 100 - 0 you if they land their cc onnyou and your all alone? Lux Veigar. People whine about her bubble being able to go through walls, but she has to have vision on a target to hit, I've never seen a Zoe have much success by randomly Qing bushes. Also she is very squishy so it's not like she's hard to kill.

Kai GuyAug 15, 20185 votes

I don't see much that cant be fixed with some number tweaks.

Add a Cd to her passive so she cant chain casts for high burst

. Make W drops less rng, let it drop off cannons or a stacking mechanic related to last hits or minion deaths.

Despite complaints, EQ is not really the issue as many mages have the same amount of CC and burst on landing combos. Keep the 2 ability wombo in line with others and its fine.

Make R have a longer delay when she uses it before she blinks back enabling folks to deal more damage when shes up front.

Most the issues I see are folks don't respect her from fog of war, folks don't respect the passive, folks don't understand how W works, fools wont body block her Q for their Squishy carry's and she gets to hit them with WAAMO Q's .

She gets compared to the old ap nid all the fucking time but she is not nearly as obnoxious as old nid. More reaction time on zoe casts the q is much more telegraphed with 2 audio qs and a visual if shes using R (in most cases), less mobility, less healing, no buggy Invisible Qs.

FlameHalbrdOkidoAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qng9aBv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-15T06:42:22.114+0000)

I don't see much that cant be fixed with some number tweaks.

Add a Cd to her passive so she cant chain casts for high burst

agreed except she it should only proc on upon hitting an enemy champ. Why should Zoe be rewarded for missing skillshots?

. Make W drops less rng, let it drop off cannons or a stacking mechanic related to last hits or minion deaths.

I'd say the only thing W should be dropping off minions at all is the base spell. NO RNG on minion drops, if they keep them at all.

Despite complaints, EQ is not really the issue as many mages have the same amount of CC and burst on landing combos. Keep the 2 ability wombo in line with others and its fine.

agreed

Make R have a longer delay when she uses it before she blinks back enabling folks to deal more damage when shes up front.

strongly agreed

ThilmerAug 15, 20185 votes

CertainlyT champions are imppossible to balance.

I have said it a thousand times: that guy shouldn't be designing champions at this point. He has 0 knowledge of game balance, and every kit he designs is absolutely overloaded with tools and weird interactions, meaning that changing the numbers do nothing to them.

ResolutionAug 15, 20184 votes

Sorry, posted this before I went to bed. Reading the responses now.

I've seen a couple "She just needs to be deleted" responses, but I don't believe that's a feasible solution. Wasn't pool party Zoe one of the best selling skins during the last event? I don't think Riot would ever do a refund on that scale, let alone undo the work they've already done. As much as players don't want to wait a year + for real solutions.

I do agree though that her main issues lie in having RNG built into the kit, and the ability to fire from the fog of war. Especially when back in 2014 they had an entire patch devoted to making fog kills harder, (Unenjoyable to the player) but it seems like they've backtracked since then.

NøctμrneAug 15, 20184 votes

They could just delete her, or give some bigger nerfs. I don't think newer champions deserve reworks. I want the older, outdated champions to be fixed first.

Sugar MommaAug 15, 20183 votes

She needs to be reworked so her Q does less dmg and her W is a completely different ability.

5000000000000000Aug 15, 20183 votes

I think W should be kept, if anything in her kit is kept.

OleandervineAug 15, 20189 votes

{quoted}

I think W should be kept, if anything in her kit is kept.

I don't think W should be kept at all. It's one of the largest bones of contention in her kit, and it's causing almost ALL of the problems with her power distribution. Because that skill does next to nothing inherently, and relies solely on RNG and summoner spells to function, it really doesn't contribute to her power budget in any solid way, so that's why all of her damage was funneled into her Q and why her E is such an infuriatingly powerful CC tool. If W was removed and replaced with another spell that actually had a reliable active and did damage, power could be shoveled out of Q and E and put into W so that her burst isn't so insanely high and her E can be balanced more effectively.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 15, 20183 votes

Just trim out a lot of the free shit she gets. For example:

Her bubble is a sleep and a big hit. Np. So why is it also a 4 (????) second trap if she misses, gets massive range through walls and a huge reduced CD if she hits something? You could slice out all of these passives and still be left with a pretty decent ability.

mack9112Aug 15, 20182 votes

She has a cool concept just too many add ons

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 15, 20182 votes

To be honest she doesn't need that drastic changes. A lot can be changed through simple number tweaks, however I do think certain parts of her can be changed for both; better gameplay experience who is playing against her and thematically.

My suggestions:

Passive: Replace with something more creative, than having a Lich Bane for a passive.

W: Remove the Orb Damage she get's upon using her W and instead add that part to her E.

E: If she misses an enemy when throwing her E, but the enemy ends up walking on top of the bubble...

Reduce the Slow from Drowsy from (10% / 20% / 30% / 40% / 50%) to (5% / 10% / 15% / 20% / 25%)
Reduce the CC Sleep duration from 2 Seconds to 1 Second instead.

E: If she hit's an enemy with her E immediately, allow Zoe to gain the Orb damage when walking towards them.

With these changes, it would add some skill expression that if she wants to kill an enemy, that she has to land her bubble on the enemy instead of just throwing it anywhere and no consequence if she doesn't hit it immediately. This would also get rid of her lazy damage that she get's from W when ever someone uses an Active or a Summoner Spell.

chipndip1Aug 15, 20181 votes

If an enemy is dumb enough to walk onto a lingering hit box, it should be the full effect of that hit box. We don't reward sloppy play for no reason, and you can easily buy stuff like Merc Treads, cleanses, and spell shields, anyway. Learn to play the strategic game strategically.
Putting her W orbs on E would either increase her overall damage output or make her attempts at combo'ing enemies after putting them to sleep insanely clumsy since the orbs would wake them from sleep before her Q lands.

FlameHalbrdOkidoAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If an enemy is dumb enough to walk onto a lingering hit box, it should be the full effect of that hit box. We don't reward sloppy play for no reason, and you can easily buy stuff like Merc Treads, cleanses, and spell shields, anyway. Learn to play the strategic game strategically.

what about when E wiffs u but the trap expands soon after and gets u b4 u have time to move?

chipndip1Aug 18, 20181 votes

There's plenty of time to move.

FlameHalbrdOkidoAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There's plenty of time to move.

2 words

creep block

Somber RitesAug 15, 20182 votes

Man, it's almost as if Riot's balance team doesn't know what they're doing.

Weird.

RedCycloneAug 15, 20182 votes

I mean they reworked Nidalee for the same offenses Zoe makes

But Riot will probably hold onto their pride and refuse to rework her for like 2 more years, most of the time Zoe will exist as a wasted champion slot during that time

ExcessiveProtestAug 15, 20181 votes

Tl;dr: yes. Zoe's getting nerfed out of basic viability at this point, which is never acceptable, but there's nowhere to add power without drastically changing something or creating a new problem.

Pre-6, her Passive may be the least bad option for allocating power budget, since it requires AA range, but even then it loses counterability if a Flash ever drops, or she hits 6.
Her Q seems balanceable alone, but would at best be Nidaspear 2.0 if they relocated power into it, and with E would be unreasonably hard-hitting.
W is inconsistent, but at its best is disgustingly unfair in every way, and buffing it would worsen that.
E circumvents Q's balancing weakness, still rewards you for missing, and has no counter if it lands: retreat, and die by Q, or move into minions, and die by W. It's an AoE dodge or die after getting any amount of power that further rewards firing it at targets from offscreen with the wall effect, AoE, and initial slow. Offensively, the initial delay is a bonus, since it gives Zoe time to position for murder, and the target waking up means nothing to a Burst Mage with one other skillshot. If Q lands, you wake up and get to dodge... nothing.
R may be the worst part of her kit for balance purposes. It does no damage on its own, but it circumvents every weakness in her kit: it extends Q's range, lets her pick up W bubbles relatively safely, and largely trivializes landing E. Since she can auto during the jump, her passive loses its limitation. She may have to pick just one, but on a basic ability cooldown she doesn't lose much. And because it does no damage, and Zoe is a Burst Mage, that has to go somewhere else, meaning basic abilities, meaning level 3 murder combo.

There is simply nowhere to put power in Zoe's current kit: nothing has enough counterplay to allow focusing power into it. She has no window of weakness since all damage is on basic abilities, and her Ult is just another basic ability to make combing easier. She's weak defensively (loses pickups flashing away, E delay is long enough to die), but has such an absurd amount of offensive potential that her best-case scenario inevitably becomes a balancing nightmare. Gut any one part, and the others become too strong after rebalancing.

Linna ExcelAug 15, 20181 votes

Your mention of Nidalee's spear is something I always wondered about this champion. Considering how people whined and complained about nidalee to the point riot reworked her spear into being a joke, why did they bring it back into the game? Shouldn't the lesson have been learned at that point? Also, if riot really wanted a nidalee spear back in the game, it should be on nidalee.

ExcessiveProtestAug 15, 20184 votes

Frankly, without saying rude things about CT that have been said a thousand times, the best I can do is guess at their madness.

That guess: because it rewards firing it backwards, from odd angles, and from far away, it has more skill expression, warning time, and counterplay, so it was acceptable.

...Thus it gets an AoE effect, more damage, lower cost, angled shots, and a longer cooldown. Also she gets an AoE slow/stun/AIM HERE sign, because a certain designer always has to add tools to mitigate the intended weakness of abilities. They like him for breaking rules, but some rules exist for a reason, and he fails far more than he succeeds. I lied about not saying mean things.

Edit: it does lack Nidalee's extended Pounce Murder Mark, so being a bit stronger alone would be fair, relative to Nidalee. The rest of the bitching I stand by.

SensanatyAug 16, 20183 votes

I despise seeing people comparing Nid spears to Zoe Q. They're nothing alike, stop spreading this stupid comparison just because they're both long ranged nukes.

F Ù ŃAug 16, 20181 votes

Least she can be playing against . How about we rework Yasuo, who has the highest ban rate out of any champ ever

Furious DelishaAug 17, 20181 votes

Revert her W and passive buffs (already happening), return her to an artillery mage with emphasis on E+Q rather than W+passive. Lower E dwell time. Bam EZ

FlameHalbrdOkidoAug 19, 20181 votes

Also her passive just needs tweaks, but its set the way it is to encourage a mag type champion like her to not rely exclusively on her long ranged attacks, but to come a bit closer to an opponents striking range