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RE: Morgana vs Zoe

Eeyore··19 votes·2,444 views

{quoted} https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7fpn0f/morgana_blocks_every_multistage_cc_with/dqe1gco/ This is most consistent with how Black Shield works elsewhere [... like versus ...] Nasus W

I'll have what you're smoking.

Firstly, Drowzy is not a form of crowd control - it's a debuff that automatically chains into secondary effect. You are just also slowed while Drowzy.

  1. Cleanse does not remove Drowzy.
  2. Tenacity does not make you fall asleep faster. Now this would be consistent with Wither.
  3. Activating Cleanse while Drowzy will grant 65% Tenacity toward the Sleep duration, meaning that the sleep even occurs after mechanically.

Some other debuffs that chain into secondary effects, either automatically or after some other pre-requisite: LeBlanc's Ethereal Chains, Morgana's Soul Shackles, Karma's Focused Resolve, Kled's Bear Trap, Nocturne's Unspeakable Horror, Evelynn's Allure, Bard's Cosmic Binding, Urgot's Fear Beyond Death and Viktor's Gravity Field. Heck, even Xerath's old Mage Chains. Some of those effects apply CC on the debuff, some don't. However, all of them will be mitigated by CC immunity that are gained after.

And none of those are even the best example - Fizz's Chum the Waters. If you have Black Shield on before, the shark will still stick to you - this is because the shark is not CC; but regardless of when you put Black Shield on, you will have CC immunity from the knock-up. If Fizz manages to break the shield before then, which he often does, he will knock you up. This is how Drowzy should work. Being made Drowzy is not CC - Black Shield shouldn't even prevent you being made Drowzy (although it should prevent Drowzy from slowing you).

The alternative of Black Shielding Drowsy, having your Black Shield break and watching your ally fall asleep seemed problematic

No. Successfully destroying the shield to guarantee the CC happens is called interactive gameplay and is exactly what both Morgana and Zoe except their relationship to be. Morgana knows her Black Shield isn't a Spell Shield.

Consistent

Bard Leblanc Karma Morgana Kled Nocturne Viktor Urgot Fizz Evelynn vs Nasus Zoe

https://i.imgur.com/z3Lbuxq.jpg

(I'm not even sure how Nasus even came into the discussion, to be honest - his is a completely incomparable ability. )

**TL;DR: Zoe's ability to circumvent Morgana's Black Shield is the special-case, and is not consistent with other "multistage CCs in League". Morgana should be able to block Sleep at any stage. If Zoe has no tools to destroy Black Shield before then - then that's just what happens when a champion only has one damaging ability. **

P.S. Another example of a debuff that chains into a secondary effect: Zilean. I know this one doesn't apply CC innately, but you specifically changed this ability to make "late" spell shields work because of how unfair the mechanic felt to actually play against. I repeat: how unfair the mechanic felt to play against.

P.S. Oh, and even Olaf doesn't remove Drowzy. I thought I'd mention this since you mentioned the fact Morgana's Black Shield doesn't cleanse on activation any more and that's why it doesn't protect you from things that "have already happened". I repeat what I said above: you cannot remove Drowzy. Old Quicksilver would have, but nothing does at the moment. Fortunately, however, his CC immunity triggers when the game tries to put him asleep - unlike Morgana's CC immunity.

Gangplank It was not K. Just thought you'd like to know.

I mean, Gangplank cannot remove debuffs (not since waaaaaaay back) - so if he eats the orange before he's actually CC'd: that's his fault. (He still falls asleep if you try to remove "Drowzy", in case I'm being too vague.)

EDIT: I'm so sorry Evelynn! I forgot you!

13 Comments

CLus7 votes

This is just a better and more snarky version of the same argument I make. The visual continuity with other skills that do the exact same thing is just off.

I think we should be asking riot why sleep is a mechanic that acts fundamentally different than other stuns when it is just a stun. For instance, all examples of characters being frozen, liss ulti for example, act as a stun. Sona's ulti forcing enemies to dance when hit is cute and fits thematically, but it is still just a stun.

There is no reason for this cc to not be just a slow that procs a stun and then work like every other slow into a stun with regard to interacting with other champions moves (and in particular black shield). Call it drowsy and sleep all you want, but it looks and acts like a slow into a stun and there is no reason for it not to be a slow into a stun with cutesy names just like Sona's ulti (which we do not call "Dancing" and do not refer to it as a new form of cc needlessly because it would be redundant).

I would even be fine with it being coded as a slow into a suppression if you want to preserve the ludicrously overly rewarding nature of the skill, because then it will still function as a slow into a stun for the purposes of character kit interactions AS IT SHOULD. Suppression only ever existed to band aid kits that were seen as having their "fantasy ruined" by Cleanse/ tenacity anyway. Suppression is a poor design choice and this "new form of cc" feels right in line with that. A poor choice or a choice made specifically to tilt most interactions in the favor of the new champion.

What has resulted is a nightmare of character interactions that leave players of older champions both scratching their heads and having very minimal windows to actually respond to a devastatingly powerful crowd control because this looks like things that already exists, yet we are being told its different for reasons that don't fit contextually (Nasus' wither doesn't change what state of cc it is causing to the affected unit, meaning it is a snare that becomes a progressively stronger snare and never becomes a stun or a suppress, so I really don't consider that a valid comparison).

What reason is there to have drowzy in the game as a separate form of cc rather than merely referring to it as drowzy and sleep and having them be stuns if not to make her have a fundamentally different, and inconsistent, interaction with moves like Black Shield? Its just the wrong call and feels like a thinly veiled money grab.

BlaQ Goku1 votes

Sleep is not a traditional stun. The CC is broken on damage, other stuns are not. I am not sure how the interaction between black shield and drowzy->sleep should go but there is a distinct difference between stun and sleep. It seems that drowsy and sleep essentially the same effect, with drowzy being the term given to the delay for the sleep effect. In this case, the slow is a separate effect and black shield should not stop the sleep effect, since it is technically already applied with the drowzy effect.

CLus2 votes

This is the justification given, but the reality is visually it looks and plays like a stun and a slow pasted together even the game thinks it shouldn't work given that sell immune pops up even as you are stunned anyway. There have been tons of things changed for the sake of continuity and this flies right in the face of that by creating a cc that works differently than any other cc it resembles and for what reason? Why exactly can't the sleep just be a slow and then a stun that is broken when someone hits them a la sona's stun making people dance but not being a new cc? The reality is it visually makes no sense in game when you see this interaction and I guarantee you that no one seeing this interaction for the first time thought "oh yeah, that's definitely the way that should work." Ultimately, sleep doesn't need to exist because it is just a stun. The entire design feels and plays out like a made -up work around for spell shields to give a new character more buy appeal.

Eeyore4 votes

{quoted}

This is just a better and more snarky version of the same argument I make.

Well, snark is what my people are known for...

Teridax686 votes

No matter which way you put it, Zoe's crowd control doesn't follow standard rules. While it may be useful to question these standards, here the net consequence is just that her E is more difficult to counter in ways that are not intuitive or informed by other parts of the game. Looking at the arguments CertainlyT listed, they do not follow each other in logical sequence, and I think it is in fact clear from point #4 especially that this special-casing reflects an uneasy, yet inconsistent attitude with Black Shield and how it's meant to counter crowd control. If we are to move towards an environment where Black Shield no longer stops multi-stage CC in-between stages, I'd be all for it, but right now we're at a stage where Black Shield blocks some things and doesn't others, again with no consistency to why that is.

What's probably just as telling, though, is that the Drowsy effect currently doesn't follow any rules of CC removal whatsoever, remaining even on champions who are CC-immune or who activated QSS. To me, this doesn't feel deliberate, yet the amount of justification that went into trying to excuse what really seems to be a mistake is concerning. This is not the first time a champion has turned out buggy or inconsistent or the like, but it's only more recently I feel that Riot's gone to such lengths to defend their newest features so completely, irrespective of the valid criticism that gets made of them. I get that Zoe's the culmination of a lot of work and deserves some slack around her release, but ignoring criticism of her will only further cement the negative reputation she's garnering already, and will only delay what at this point are pretty important fixes and adjustments that need to happen. The same goes for any other new feature in League, and I don't think it's really productive to put up a wall of defense at all costs for the first month of every update.

Hibeki2 votes

What a surprise, Certainly T manages to sneak more little bullshit things that turn champions into broken pieces of shit. Wouldnt be surprised if this was a 'feature' much like how Yasuo ult puts him outside of tower range for no reason other than forcing overpowered shit on him

Hexs Fortune1 votes

EDIT: I'm so sorry Evelynn! I forgot you!

-Rito Games

Very Hard Engage1 votes

what you're forgetting, is that riot would basically have to recode from the ground up and rebuild the ability.

what you need to know... is riot doesn't do that, ever.

Eeyore5 votes

{quoted}

what you're forgetting, is that riot would basically have to recode from the ground up and rebuild the ability.

what you need to know... is riot doesn't do that, ever.

No they wouldn't, and they have done before.

For starters, the "correct" interaction between crowd control immunity and Zoe is already present on Olaf...

Very Hard Engage1 votes

you're missing the point.

you're expecting work.... EFFORT. from riot.

they pick a direction, and they stick too it, only if theres overwhelming backlash and hard evidence its awful, will they go in and do something about it. this is not a noteworthy interaction in riots mind.

were you there when riot was streaming the galio rework? nothing but hate ew, pog champ, no value, too slow, bad synergy comments. save galio. but guess what, it went through anyway because riot was already so heavily invested in it and it just "couldnt go to waste"

Poop Jelly1 votes

Oh yeah I noticed this yesterday when I played Zoe support vs a Morgana support. She kept Black-shielding the target that stepped into the bubble and the CC was never negated that I thought it was a bug. Now I don't understand why Morg shield wouldn't prevent sleeping, just doesn't seem right!?

CLus1 votes

Sure doesn't but its "intended" to be different that every other cc that looks just like it.

Kubox1 votes

Looking at CertainlyT's comment, there's one thing that really stands out and irks me.

  1. The alternative of Black Shielding Drowsy, having your Black Shield break and watching your ally fall asleep seemed problematic for other reasons -- the Morgana player would be punished for doing what seems optimal (reacting quickly and exercising good judgment about their ally's dodging capabilities).

Isn't that a good interaction though? The current system favors Morgana brainlessly shielding either herself or an ally and then throwing said shielded person at Zoe. The alternative would have Morgana play a game of chicken where she is forced to wait until the CC is thrown before shielding, potentially opening up to damage, other champions CC or something like summoner 3

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