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Is Flashing-to-move-the-AOE actually intended behavior?

Eeyore··86 votes·7,963 views

I always assumed it was a bug/exploit, and I do not understand how it could be considered intended since it bypasses the intended range/reaction windows of abilities. I'm pretty certain it was fixed super fast when Nunu could Flash/Lantern/get Rocket Grabbed to move his ultimate's detonation to center on the new location, so what gives on Shadow Dash and Body Slam? (And the many others, I'm sure).

Virtually every Gragas and Shen over the weekend employed this "feature" and the casters commented on it like it was a feature of their kits and was well executed.

If they Flashed to get in range and then used the ability - that's fine; but I do not see how it's fair that a player can purposefully miss/under-shoot the ability and then just flash at the end to "stretch" its area-of-effect to guarantee it hits a target. This can be used to even have the ability move at obtuse angles from the original line-of-effect...

"Oh I missed/you dodged? Nah - I've got my Flash up!"

https://youtu.be/SFbgWHz3ous?t=19m41s

Gragas missed his Body Slam versus Sivir in the UOL vs H2K, but Flashed and stunned her anyway. The fact he intended to do this doesn't change the fact that the ability missed, and it's the fact the ability can be intentionally missed that makes it look like an exploit/bug.

188 Comments

Dr Poro57 votes

I agree that flash shouldn't be castable during dashes or other spell cast times. If this was fixed, Gragas and shen wouldn't need any nerfs and his winrate on the ladder wouldn't have to be below 45% to be not dominant at Worlds.

LA Losty13 votes

I think its a cool mechanic that allows for alot of playmaking potential. Many champions can cancel animations with flash and some of their signature moves or known outplays work with flash. R+flash on Lee Sin is a good example, its not a dash though, but the concept is the same, canceling an animation with flash. An even better example would be with Jarvan. I dont play Gragas or Shen at all, but i would be very sad if this feature was removed as it allows for some great plays and seems like a core element to their kit.

Dr Poro6 votes

The thing is that these are things abused by the top 1% or less while they're unknown for the bottom 90% causing the champion to be nerfed into oblivion for the latter. It also hurts clarity in my opinion. When you see an animation starting, it should end the way it started, and not suddenly flash into the other direction. You can still make flash outplays without using it mid-cast.

LankPants7 votes

The thing is that these are things abused by the top 1% or less while they're unknown for the bottom 90% causing the champion to be nerfed into oblivion for the latter.

I use this and see people use this frequently and I only play at gold. Even when I was in silver I saw people using ability-flash combos. Saying it's unknown to most of the community seems pretty off to me.

IRyzeForNidalee23 votes

Yes, this is "feature" is an abomination, but Riot loves anything that makes LCS move faster and causes more kills. They don't care about gameplay or your enjoyment while playing, only about making it look good on stream.

TheOvermind22 votes

So basically Gragas bodyslam is balanced around being easy to dodge. Well flash completely changes that dynamic of that. Doesn't that give the specific champion way more strength than intended ?

Spaceman5pff7 votes

It does, and I would rather have this mechanic removed than have the obnoxious fucking delay on his ult that he now has.

Meep Man13 votes

It's the same reason Lee Sin can ward jump (kind of) and Riven has animation canceling. It was a sign of "skill" back in the day when the champion first began to be mastered, Riot didn't fix it, and thus made it to where removing said "bug-like" feature would cause all mains of those champions to cry about how Riot was removing a sign of "skill" from their champion.

IRyzeForNidalee15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YOG7ttEL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-08-29T12:16:45.012+0000)

It's the same reason Lee Sin can ward jump (kind of) and Riven has animation canceling. It was a sign of "skill" back in the day when the champion first began to be mastered, Riot didn't fix it, and thus made it to where removing said "bug-like" feature would cause all mains of those champions to cry about how Riot was removing a sign of "skill" from their champion.

This doesn't even take skill though. You literally just flash on top of somebody after missing your dash and it hits them. "Oh look I sidestepped th- Nope he flashed on me I'm CC'd and dead now". Such skill.

Eeyore13 votes

I don't think Ward Jumping is a bug or exploit. They may not have originally intended wards to be used aggressively, as such, but the sequence of inputs is a clear line from A to B. When he uses Safeguard to cancel Resonating Strike, Resonating Strike is in deed cancelled - he doesn't move the damage or cause it to trigger early.

As for Riven - most champions can animation cancel. Nasus can double-attack by using Siphoning Strike immediately after attacking to reset his attack timer (and cancel his wind-down). I think the issue with her animation canceling is just how bloated her kit is for animation cancelling. A good animation cancelling Riven can do AQAQAQAWAEA in substantially less time than a player who isn't good at animation canceling - and each of this As does bonus damage due to Runic Blade. It feels frustrating to play against and she's been nerfed a lot because of her "skill ceiling", meaning that a lot of her power is hidden from un-mastered players - implementing some way to curb her animation canceling and making her power more accessible wouldn't be impossible, but I'm not sure what would be the best approach. Maybe something like Kalista's innate where she cannot cancel anything?

OH MAN NOT GOOD1 votes

[deleted]

Eeyore8 votes

As I said - too much of her power is locked within hidden mechanical mastery.

Hyperiön13 votes

This has been around since the beginning of the game... Why take it away because you think it is "unfair?" They are using their 4-5 minute CD flash to make a teamfight/game changing play. It all falls under High Risk, High Reward. It will either be a great decision, or it will be awful.

Darksun Dragoon30 votes

The argument he's making is that flash is being used to move an AoE effect that would otherwise have missed. Essentially interrupting the champion's dash with it and still getting the CC/damage out of it at a location that is entirely outside of the ability's range. An interaction that has been removed from other AoE abilities in the past because Riot deemed it unfair/bugged

Hyperiön1 votes

It is not a bug/unfair. Vi does the same thing, no one complains about that. It is apart of the game, if Riot said it was unfair/bugged, it would have been removed a very long time ago. I go back to what I have been saying, they are blowing their 4-5 min CD flash to make a play, why shouldn't they be rewarded for USING THEIR ABILITIES. If Riot didn't want them doing it, they would remove it, like I already said, or make it cancel animation. It is no a bug, it is not a glitch, it is not unfair.

Eeyore21 votes

Vi, like Varus, has a first cast that enables the second cast. Vi can use Flash during the "channeling" of Vault Breaker and will still be channeling when she arrives. The fact most Vi's flash and seamlessly use the second cast upon arrivial doesn't change the fact she is activating the Vault Breaker AFTER Flashing - and it is the equivalent behavior to Annie's Flash + Tibbers. She is using Flash to get in range, not using Flash to manipulate the area of effect.

That's not to say that Vi cannot reproduce the Gragas exploit, since I imagine most dashes with collision hitboxes can reproduce the exploit - but most Vi's do not perform the exploit.

Also, the fact that this has been a part of the game since the beginning is not an argument to keep it and it HAS been removed from other abilities. Whether or not the effect is fair is subjective, but if it is unfair for Nunu, Galio, Blitzcrank and Thresh to produce this exploit - it is objectively still unfair for Gragas and Shen. There is no reason that they should still be able to do it.

Eeyore21 votes

The High Risk / High Reward should be using Flash to get in range - like Annie does.

Flashing to get in range still has the potential to miss - this is called a Risk. Flashing to manipulate the area of effect of an ability has no Risk because you are guaranteed to hit (blowing cooldowns is not an example of a Risk).

Hyperiön1 votes

It is the same thing? Literally. You cover the same range, you have to time it perfectly. What is the difference between flashing first, or right before its done? There is none, Except in your logic the animation shouldn't go with them. Why should their animation go away if they are trying to make a flashy engage? Why would they even use the skill then if the animation goes right on cooldown with nothing happening?

Eeyore20 votes

They are not the same thing at all.

Body Slam stuns the first person in a line, just like Brand's Q, or Elise's E. The fact that Gragas is performing the effect personally (rather than with a projectile) doesn't change the gameplay functionality. Skill shots have telegraphed trajectories that enemies can dodge/play around. If you choose to Flash from Body Slam - Gragas shouldn't be able to Flash after you and stun you anyway.

Either Flashing should terminate Body Slam INSTANTLY (just like Flash cancels Lee Sin's Resonating Strike without doing damage), or Flash should be disabled/queued until after Body Slam is completed. He shouldn't be able to redirect Body Slam using Flash.

Luxs Destiny1 votes

And if Annie's Tibbers was dash or some type of AoE that can be altered with flashing after the cast animation, you'd complain about that as well :,) Man, just give up. You're not going to get anywhere. You don't like it? Ignore it. The casters compliment players doing it because it's a sign of strategy, mind games, and chancing High Risk / High Reward

Eeyore15 votes

Well yes, I would complain about Annie as well if she could do that. I'm pretty certain people did complain when she stunned people who managed to flash out of range, and I'm pretty certain they fixed that.

And what kind of advice is "ignore it"? Hypothetical: Shen is chasing me down mid lane but I am maintaining a range that is beyond his area of influence, and should be fine. Rather than Flashing to get in range and then dashing, a High Risk / High Reward play since there is still a RISK OF MISSING - he instead dashes (which would have missed) and then Flashes to guarantee it hits me. There is no risk in this play because he cannot miss unless he inputs the command wrong.

Gary B Enkelis5 votes

I kinda agree with you but also I'd say that knowing when they can summoner 4 is important for knowing their range of influence...

BushidoBlade2 votes

If you can get your team to record timers on enemy flashes it can be helpful indeed. A safer way to do things is if you are concerned that you can die to a flash play, play like they always have flash, unless you yourself have seen them use it or your team states that they have used it.

Mr Fidori8 votes

This is really something people think is bullshit? The times, they are a-changin...

Darksun Dragoon3 votes

Changing? When has there not been some thread about what you can/can't do with flash and whether it should/shouldn't be possible?

Mr Fidori5 votes

I have honestly never seen a thread about Shen/Gragas's bread-and-butter mechanic being unfair. It's like complaining about Alistar's combo.

Then again, I spend most of my time on Reddit, not here.

Eeyore8 votes

It's not really like complaining about Alistar's combo - if anything, Alistar's combo is an example of how it should be working. I think it was technically confirmed that Alistar's combo was unintentional, but this is wide-sweeping mechanic that affects everything.

The most recent "move block" will cancel any previous "move block" (dashes, blinks, airbornes, etc). Alistar's combo works because being knocked up/back cancels the previous knock back/up, just like it also interrupts Tristana's Rocket Jump. Or how Arcane Shift interrupts Rocket Grab, since blinking cancels the grab (and there's a delay, so Ezreal usually gets hooked during the delay and then the blink happens).

Using Flash should be interrupting Body Slam or Shadow Dash - which it does, but it currently resolves Flash first and then interrupts the dashes (meaning there is one game tick where the effects of Body Slam and Shadow Dash are blinked to a new location). Most abilities are canceled when Flash is cast, not when it resolves (and other examples of where this wasn't happening, e.g. Nunu, have been fixed already).

Mr Fidori2 votes

Just a sidenote: channeled abilities (like Nunu's) have been changed to not continue through flash.

That being said, even if the ability to do this was unintentional, it's still better that it's possible. Both (especially Shen) would have significantly less impact if they couldn't engage this way, because they're too predictable.

Eeyore8 votes

I objectively disagree.

Giving a champion the ability to turn their interactive gameplay (skill shot) into a guaranteed play (targeted effect) removes interaction with the enemies. Watching Gragas delete Sivir with an unavoidable play was not interesting to watch and if I were playing I would have felt cheated, especially on Sivir who specifically has tools to interact with hard engages (i.e. Spell Shield) but had no opportunity to react (and not because of a lack of sight). I suppose you could argue that at that level of play Sivir should have expected he would exploit and put the shield up the moment he came over the wall, but in my opinion that fact she had dodged/he missed should have been the end of that interaction with Body Slam - skill shots are already a dance of aiming and dodging, without adding the ability to bluff/trump.

Having the exploit only available to certain types of abilities (predominantly collision-based-dashes) also reduces the number of viable champions. You say it makes things less predictable - but seeing a Shen and Gragas in every game doesn't seem unpredictable, to me.

There's also the fact Shen and Gragas keep getting nerfed in other areas... which is due to the amount of reliable power in their engage. But this isn't fair to all the people who don't exploit.

WoonStruck4 votes

Hmm...a way for them to pay for their safety?

Nah, let's just have them be better than the majority of the roster until they literally get nerfed into a state they're unusable.

Weathered2 votes

I'm pretty sure by alistar combo he meant Q flash

Eeyore7 votes

This being bullshit is nothing new...

It just takes me watching eSports and to hear a commentator mention how "skillful" the action was for me to be reminded that the issue persists...

Sohleks6 votes

It's pretty sad they flavor it as skill

Pressing E as Gragas then flashing ontop them is stupid easy. It's also part of what makes him so broken. If he appears on your screen and has flash you get knocked up and into the enemies' hands unless you just flash first for safety.

Shen is probably a bit harder because he's slim. But Gragas is fat. Shen also can't knock you into his team right after.

Terchio8 votes

The real issue here is that players are using Flash with these champions in order to subvert animation times. Body Slam is meant to be counterable, but toss in an immediate teleport and there's an almost non-existent window to counteract, especially when done in the Fog of War, like in the OP's video. I don't understand why champions like this can get away without cast animations in the name of skill. Champions should be built around the skill it takes to work around their animations, not in finding ways to deny them altogether. These shouldn't be intended modes of play.

GuiltyGecko6 votes

In preseason, it would be a good move to change this behavior so champions couldn't flash>skillshot, and then have their kits balanced accordingly.

Pikmints10 votes

Exactly. Remember when Thresh was able to wind up his Q then flash to hit his target? Riot quickly got rid of that interaction because it gave him too much power, yet this is nearly a must-know combo for Gragas and Shen that made them nerf-worthy in competitive.

Eeyore5 votes

Blitz used to be able to use Flash/grab lanterns while his grabbed target was in the air to pull them to a new location - despite the fact he cannot "walk" while reeling in. Their solution to this particular problem was that a target is always dropped where Blitzcrank was when he cast the ability, rather than disabling Flash/Lantern.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

Can confirm that this combo is absurd on gragas.

Clear ur jg -> Get red -> e-flash a solo laner for first blood 90% of the time -> get blue smite in one clear

ThePartyLeader6 votes

Wow a hate thread on flash engages. Unfortunately this will never happen, and should never happen. This is a synergy that works with every non channeled ability In The Game Not like a bug or specific interaction and also has been party of the game for at least 6 years but I believe since it's beta. Flash states that you blink to a location. Not if you are standing still you can blink. BTW the casters talk like it's a feature..... because it is.

Eeyore13 votes

I think you are failing to comprehend the bug/exploit that is being reported here.

The following is what you seem to think every is complaining about:

  1. Gragas casts Flash to get in range of his target.
  2. Gragas uses Body Slam and either successfully hits or misses his target.

This is not the issue. You are either incapable of reading or incapable of imagining the difference between what is being said and what you think they are talking about.

The following is what people are actually complaining about:

  1. Gragas uses Body Slam from a position that couldn't possibly reach his target.
  2. During/at the very end of Body Slam, Gragas casts Flash.
  3. The effects of Body Slam are applied in an area around where Gragas flashes to, damaging and stunning a target that was potentially both not in range nor in the trajectory of Body Slam.
Hyperiön1 votes

He is using his flash to make a play, what is wrong with that? That is saying like Annie flash tibbers shouldn't be a thing, or Rek'Sai flash knockup. Your logic is invalid and Riot will NEVER touch this. They are using their 4-5 minute CD to make a high risk, high reward play.

Eeyore15 votes

Your examples are not equivalent at all.

He is not using Flash to get in range to use Body Slam, like Annie Flashes to get in range of Tibbers or Rek'Sai Flashes to get in range of Unburrow - he is using Body Slam first, MISSING, and then using Flash to undo his mistake (except it's not even a mistake at this stage, people are intentionally reproducing this exploit to make Body Slam unavoidable/unblockable).

Weathered4 votes

Channeled abilities like Nunus R are different from dash abilities like Grag or Shen.

Mai Waifu Irelia2 votes

Regardless of whether it should be taken out I just want to point out he didn't "miss" his bodyslam at all, it was a completely intentional e-flash.

If you have your flash up and aren't in silver you have to assume gragas will do it and try to outflash it, or burn your flash then get help/base/sit at tower.

It's no sillier than flash auto/ability that goes off even if your target flashes imo.

If they removed it, gragas will just walk up and Q slow you, E then ult anyway (in most cases)

Wouldn't change much and just limits playmaking potential

Eeyore8 votes

He missed the ability. He exploited Flash to change the area of effect. The fact that the exploit is considered a fair feature and that people intentionally reproduce the effect doesn't change the fact Body Slam missed - he would not have hit Sivir based on the advertised line-of-effect.

UnderscorBunnies2 votes

E-Flashing has always been a mechanic on both Shen and Gragas, and it's preferred to Flash-E'ing because it allows less time to react.

It's also been pretty standard to be able to flash during channels of almost any variety to change the location/direction of it. Ahri can flash while channeling her charm to change the direction it comes out, same with Draven E, Sivir Q, pretty much any skillshot with a channel time. There's also things like Ult-Flashing on cassiopeia, etc.

Eeyore9 votes

The fact it has always been that way is not an argument for keeping it.

It is also not true in all cases. Ezreal and Lux cannot flash during their "1 second cast times", and their ultimates will original from their original location even if they are displaced by an enemy.

Project omen2 votes

It's an entire summoner spell that has a cd of 5 minutes. I think it's ok, since you waste a valuable resource if you miss.

Maligaro Spike4 votes

the problem is that it's almost impossible to miss since it's instantaneous and has a pretty big range

Pika Fox1 votes

Issue is that bodyslam and shadow dash move the character while having the effects stem from their character while moving. While it can be a quick fix to not allow flash to be used during this, or end the effect early when flash is used, this is suboptimal because its not intuitive to what the player would expect to have happen upon using flash. Not to mention they would just flash > E, which will have changed nothing anyway.

Also, fun fact, Ryze ult can (unless they changed it) move a nunu while ulting.

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