Concerning only the first clear, for the most part, why are the two hardest and/or most tedious camps in the game in the same quadrant? I appreciate the "everyone starting bottom lane" last season was stale, but is going back to "everyone start blue side" of the other 5 seasons actually an improvement?
Can we swap wolves and raptors around?
Photos of Ghosts31 votesBest swap is Wolves - Krugs, same space required
Eeyore7 votesThat would make the most sense - then the outer lanes have access to similarly "easy" camps while mid lane has access to two obnoxious camps.
Englais7 votesAnd then your midlaner isn't running around and stealing your camps. I love it.
rtbf2216514121 votesAnd then your midlaner isn't running around and stealing your camps. I love it.
But then you have less reason to gank mid, the lane that is the fastest route to your inhib.
Eeyore2 votesSounds like mid lane already has good reasons to put pressure there.
rtbf2216514121 votes[{quoted}](name=The Empty Lord,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OOo6aUPe,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-30T14:57:10.318+0000)
Sounds like mid lane already has good reasons to put pressure there.
And a good reason we can't afford to lose that lane either.
Hmmm.
Whut Thuh 1 votesive done this a few times in the new season, but since raptors are a pain to take for most junglers i will often help myself to the small ones with one or 2 abilites as like an ekko talon or some other high wave clear mage, makes the camp easy to clear and leaves most of the xp and gold still there, minus the damage you take from little ones
DrugsForRobots3 votesI thought it was to encourage counter-jungling. If you don't have the AoE to easily clear Raptors and Krugs, you try to steal the enemy's Wolves and Gromp. Vice versa, if you're playing someone with good AoE clear, invading the enemy to get their Raptors and Krugs rewards you mightily, right?
Eeyore1 votesHow exactly does the current position of camps encourage counter-jungling over any other position?
DrugsForRobots1 votesIf Riot made the swap you're suggesting (Raptors <--> Wolves), or your preferred swap (Raptors <--> Gromp), then each quadrant would have 2 small camps (which they already have), one having 1-3 monsters (Gromp & Wolves) and the other having 5+ monsters (Krugs & Raptors).
The current position of having both 5+ monster camps in the same quadrant as one another (i.e. Raptors & Krugs being in the same quadrant) means that champions with single-target damage or poor AoE should be looking to either gank or counter-jungle the enemy's Wolves & Gromp, since they can't do Krugs or Raptors without getting eaten alive.
I think having the camps positioned like what you want to see (which is reminiscent of the jungle in earlier seasons) would mean that junglers could stay in their own jungle and keep doubling-back (ganking mid as they do so), as by the time they finish all the smaller, easier camps (i.e. not Raptors or Krugs) the 1st small camp they took will have respawned.
Not saying this is the correct answer, it's just a hunch. As Shaco, I can't do Raptors or Krugs easily. Wolves and Gromp are far easier. Getting my Red & Blue, and taking Wolves & Gromp only leaves me with the options of ganking or counter-jungling. In previous seasons, I would basically clear my entire jungle as fast as I could, only ganking if I saw an opportunity, only counter-jungling if I had info on the enemy jungler or believed I could ambush and kill him. Very often I would double-back to where I started because the camps would respawn, ganking mid as I did so.
Make sense?
XxxLumberJackxxX2 votesHoly shit... yes plz? Or frogs and birds
Eeyore21 votesThat would actually be my preferred switch, but Gromp doesn't really have a nest - he's just sat in the middle of a path. Having half a dozen raptors sat in the middle of the path would look... more odd.
Hawkefire1 votesWhy not swap wolves and birds? They both have relatively similar camp sizes, so tweaking it wouldn't be difficult (or possibly even necessary)
Eeyore1 votesThat's the swap I suggested in my original post, but I would honest prefer to have Raptors and Kurgs in mirrored positions (i.e. the two tedious camps on the outside).
Velzard of Koz1 votesAlso, this (and kinda any change, really) would need change in the map texture. I know it is just detail. but Raptors have actual nest and Gromp has the shroomy purplish environment.
duckarp2 votesI was going to agree and then read this:
Even Shyvana, one of the quintessential "AOE clearers", struggles to do either camp on the first clear and still be in gank-worthy condition.
I mean, WHAT? I never had any problem with either of those camps.
Rintam3 votesYeah, I never even buy potions on Shyvana because clearing is so easy.
Eeyore3 votesI'm not sure why my anecdotal experience would take away from whether or not you agree with the proposal.
ntbcool2 votesbecause it devalues your knowledge of the subject. Say someone only plays shyvana jg and then read this, all they are going to think is that you're dumb/bad.
Eeyore1 votesWell either I'm doing something very wrong or we have a different definition of "first clear starting red side".
I have yet to find any jungler who shrugs off Krugs and/or Raptors at level 2 without a stupid amount of leashing or kiting. I have no issue killing Raptors on someone like Shyvana or Nocturne if I saved Smite from my buff camp and/or I'm already level 4; but at level 2 I'm just going to skip raptors and head to wolves/blue (or just start the enemy red and them come back to my wolves/blue). However, even on Shyvana and Nocturne, killing Gromp/Wolves is easier and healthier. They don't sacrifice any single target jungling for their AOE.
But the main issue I have is that I hate that it limits my invasion options on Blue Team, since on Red Team I will usually clear out the enemy's Blue+Gromp or Blue+Wolves (depending on how fast I perceive my opponent will clear) as most junglers still start bot-side jungle, but if I'm on Blue Team the vacant jungle is top-side, which is not only harder to get into but also has less that I can steal.
The positions of camps doesn't encourage jungle-pick versatility and create tension with unpredictable clear routes - it just punishes single target junglers ('cause no AOE jungler has any issue killing gromp).
Backup4now2 votesEven Shyvana, one of the quintessential "AOE clearers", struggles to do either camp on the first clear
Where are you getting this information? All I ever see shyvanas do is instaclear redside then blueside without losing much HP. Even Mordekaiser can reliably clear all of red side without losing much health. My Shyvana main friend doesn't even start potion, he starts regen bead!
Sure, the weaker junglers are struggling with them, but that's because Riot hates creative methods of evening out the playing field, fucking over anyone unable to clear fast or safely. Swapping around the position of the camps still means there's still a redside camp that fucks them.
[edit] Alright, for those that don't see reason:
Alright, just for you, I went ahead and tested it with a friend. With a ONE MAN, very shitty leash at red buff, and attack speed runes, talisman, and 3 health potions, E>W>Q, I was able to clear the entire jungle without using a single smite. The lowest health I was at was after taking blue buff. With smite, I would have been at full health the whole time. So, this whole "bad clear" shit is debunked for anyone with a rune page.
Quoting myself from below.
Profirix5 votesShyvana definitely struggles through first clear now. You can maybe do 4 or 5 camps before being way too low to even safely be in your own jungle.
Venomar1 votesShyvanas first clear is shit. So if that's "all you see" I'd recommend glasses.
Backup4now1 votesAlright, just for you, I went ahead and tested it with a friend. With a ONE MAN, very shitty leash at red buff, and attack speed runes, talisman, and 3 health potions, E>W>Q, I was able to clear the entire jungle without using a single smite. The lowest health I was at was after taking blue buff. With smite, I would have been at full health the whole time. So, this whole "bad clear" shit is debunked for anyone with a rune page.
Eeyore1 votesNone of what you said describes how ready-to-gank-top-lane Red Team Shyvana is after doing Red+Raptors or Krugs+Red, or Krugs+Raptors, compared to how ready-to-gank Shyvana is after clearing the blue quadrant.
Backup4now1 votesYou can quickly and efficiently clear redside while only missing ~50 health after red-chickens-krugs. You can do the same blue side. That's full health, level 3, with a buff, regardless of side. Only after attempting to take the second half of the jungle do you start losing hp. Does that answer your question? Also, keep in mind, This example is without using smite
WoonStruck2 votesMost people start raptors level 1 and get some AoE from their midlaners now.
Kite the camp, don't face-tank it. Yes, this works even on melee. Kill the small raptors first.
Its not that hard people. Primarily single target junglers first/second clear are the meta right now, if you'd notice.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesI have to love the boards. Downvoted for stating facts.
WoonStruck1 votesYeah, idk.
Its gunna be good to finish hitting diamond after these Vlad buffs. Maybe low elo will believe me then.
Also, I haven't been playing or watching League for practically the last month, especially jungle.
I just know exp was moved to raptors and taken from everything else. Its just the obvious progression in jungle meta...just like when krugs were overloaded.
I was starting Krugs lvl 1 even before they buffed the EXP.
Calypsó1 votesMost people start raptors level 1 and get some AoE from their midlaners now.
Kite the camp, don't face-tank it. Yes, this works even on melee. Kill the small raptors first.
Its not that hard people. Primarily single target junglers first/second clear are the meta right now, if you'd notice.
Um...actually most people start at a buff. Preferably where their bot lane is because they will give a better leash. Raptors lvl 1 is like last season strat with Sion.
WoonStruck1 votesNo its not...
Raptors level 1 on Sion last season was getting them all low then wailing on the big one until they killed you since he has his passive; it was a quick way to clear a camp and get a cheesy level 2 for lane at only the cost of TP.
That is much, MUCH different than the current state of things.
Also, would you really expect low-elo to be the fore-runners of the meta?
No, you expect them to be behind the times...just like they are right now complaining about raptors.
Tails90162 votesI think it's so you can't go straight from krugs to wolfs in less time or straight from gromp ( that's the name of the frog, right?) to raptors. With the system in place, you have to go across twice, losing gank time/ being put in better spots to gank. Since some champs like
seem to die every time they go Red>Krugs> raptors, by dying to the raps.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesthematically. the krugs should not be moved because of the rocky area they are in. but chickens can certainly be interchanged with either gromp or wolves.
Lintu Puck1 votesbecause their quadrant has Red Buff. the buff that gives you a bit more life, health regen, straight damage, and the burn.
MARK SENPAI1 votes?
.,
Ahri Jungle12 votesWHO SUMMONED ME!
Jesus is Savior1 votesUhhhh they buffed Gromp you know? He's arguably one of the hardest camps now in the early game.
(ie: whereas raptors are "hard," gromp is "skip, because you wont kill him")
Eeyore1 votesI saw the change, but I have not noticed it on any champion I play. I didn't notice that he got bonus attack speed, either, if I'm honest. On red side, I usually steal the enemy Blue+Gromp because Gromp is just as easy to kill as wolves but the gateaway is safer.
ReZisT Lust1 votesi kite backwards a bit so he loses more of his steroid rage
Automated Riven1 votesisnt it a static 5 attacks and it isnt time based?
ReZisT Lust1 votesi thought it was just timed i dont remmeber the notes
Champion Skin2 votes"Gromp gains 100% attack speed at the beginning of the fight, decaying over 5 attacks." http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Gromp
If the wiki is correct then it is based on attacks not time
ReZisT Lust1 votesah ok
theArtifacts1 votesI think the reason they are where they are was due to giving vision smite buffs on Raptors / Wolves; having one vision buff per side of the jungle. Since that has changed though it makes sense to change up the locations to make clears equally as quick on both sides.
rtbf2256182411 votesSwap damage output between krugs and the gromp imo.
Baron Perenolde1 votesThis has been bothering me for a while too, I'm glad somebody else suggested it here.
VelvetCrotch1 votesGood point! Gameplaywise a thing riot should think about. (Maybe they do already)
Rákãñ1 votesMid laners tend to have the more Aoe skills. They usually take Raptors as they can usually clear them quickly as a lot junglers tend to ignore them in the early game now. It wouldn't change to much really.