Sunfire Cape Toggle

FantasySniper·Oct 19, 2014·72 votes·4,762 views

We've all heard it, it was a classic idea that showed up on the Item Discussion forum every week, and for some reason it still hasn't happened.

Pros:

No more unintentionally catching aggro from creeps and towers
Complete control over creeps, making lane management easier and you won't be accidentally stealing creeps (especially buffs)
Mobi-boots won't be constantly off from entering combat 100% of the time with nearby creeps
We won't be buying a downside

Cons:

Umm... It becomes simpler to use and appreciate?

Seriously, why hasn't this happened?

60 Comments

iMaB3ASTOct 19, 201410 votes

Yea have it be toggled like an active. Con: Might go in to a enemy team thinking ur doing damage with sunfire when ur not item 3068

BlazingSalvoOct 19, 20148 votes

Why add power to an item that needs power elsewhere? Like, sure we'd all like a toggle. It would be a strict buff. The problem is you can't just give items strict power and expect them to retain the exact same stats or damage.

If Sunfire isn't powerful enough, I'd rather it gain power in the form of stats or damage rather than a toggle active.

There is a concept called a drawback which, while not seen often in league, actually exists in other games in order to balance power. The drawback of aggroing baron or towers, or pushing waves faster even if you don't want to is the drawback that compensates the rest of the item's power.

FantasySniperOct 19, 201413 votes

There's a concept called "Quality of Life". It is the wondrous capacity for something's ease of use and clarity deriving from its complexity, or lack thereof, as it isn't a quality you would always use in positive nor negative context.

No item in the game has a drawback, they don't even have a cost besides the gold used to purchase it, but for some reason Sunfire Cape does.

There is no point in this drawback. The lack of choice behind its effect on the game does not balance in any effective or desirable way. If it needed a "drawback", we could do anything better than this.

BlazingSalvoOct 19, 20144 votes

The drawback of Statikk Shiv and Tiamat is that you can't freeze a lane.

101100111000Oct 19, 201418 votes

The drawback of Statikk Shiv and Tiamat is that you can't freeze a lane.

I don't think either item is bought with "Now I'll be able to freeze the lane!" in mind.

Teridax68Oct 20, 20148 votes

You technically can still freeze a lane by just letting enemy minions die, or simply controlling your use of basic attacks. Purchasing item 3087 or item 3077 / item 3074 lets you push your lane in ways you couldn't previously do, but doesn't remove your ability to keep the lane where you want it, nor does it deny you strategic options you had before purchasing those items. item 3068 , on the other hand, doesn't let you attack the tower while your lane opponent's under it, for example (unless you want to take turret damage), and attracts unnecessary attention in the jungle, two issues that would be easily fixed if the damaging aura had a toggle.

The point to the above suggestion isn't to specifically buff Sunfire Cape: the item's fairly good in terms of power, and if this buffs it to a point where it's too powerful then it could easily have some stats nerfed to compensate. In the end, though, it would be better to have an item with weaker stats but no design flaws than an item that's balanced around implementation problems.

FantasySniperOct 20, 20142 votes

In the end, though, it would be better to have (insert subject here) with weaker stats but no design flaws than (insert subject here) that's balanced around implementation problems.

This can be applied to anything!

ColeslawOct 21, 20142 votes

Except nothing else in League is balanced around implementation problems. If something is designed poorly, then Riot normally just fixes whatever was done poorly. They don't buff or nerf things to adjust for bugs or unintentional effects that weren't forseen. Because cone-based skillshots were buggy, we didn't see Riot buff those cone abilities to make them way more powerful if/when they hit, instead Riot just fixed the damn glitch.

The point is that Sunfire Cape almost certainly wasn't designed with taking random jungle/baron aggro, being entirely unable to seige turrets that have a defender, and not being able to proc out of combat effects in mind. Literally no other item in the game has any real, gameplay-changing drawbacks. And so it would be appreciated if it was fixed.

FantasySniperOct 21, 20141 votes

This wasn't directed toward LoL (but although I could probably apply it to toxic elements in general).

It is a simple rule of game design to make something based around "the right idea" rather than a "fatal flaw" (as in it's Doomed to Fail). Your example of bugs are perfect for this, as you should never leave them 'less they are intentional, then they aren't even bugs.

SogrethOct 21, 20141 votes

Except nothing else in League is balanced around implementation problems. If something is designed poorly, then Riot normally just fixes whatever was done poorly. They don't buff or nerf things to adjust for bugs or unintentional effects that weren't forseen. Because cone-based skillshots were buggy, we didn't see Riot buff those cone abilities to make them way more powerful if/when they hit, instead Riot just fixed the damn glitch.

The point is that Sunfire Cape almost certainly wasn't designed with taking random jungle/baron aggro, being entirely unable to seige turrets that have a defender, and not being able to proc out of combat effects in mind. Literally no other item in the game has any real, gameplay-changing drawbacks. And so it would be appreciated if it was fixed.

If that's not how it was designed, then they would have changed it a LONG time ago. You even know how long this item has been in the game? If Riot feels it's a problem, they will add a toggle, but they haven't in years, so they probably won't. Get over it. :*

Teridax68Oct 22, 20144 votes

By that rationale, items like item 3022 or item 3005 , which Riot have said on several occasions have a fundamentally unhealthy design, would have been removed since Preseason Three. Items look easier to change than champions, but the opposite is true, since you need to test every change on every champion that uses the item (and champions who might be interested in it). Sunfire Cape's aura is also a low-priority issue (its problems aren't significant enough to be game-breaking, even if they do negatively affect gameplay), and has likely not been part of the set of issues Riot has tried to tackle in one go. This doesn't mean reimplementing the aura as a toggle is out of the question, nor does it mean that items that haven't been dealt with so far are all in an ideal state (aura items, and auras in general, need to be addressed).

NarasimhaOct 21, 20141 votes

The drawback is the exact same as its strength: Its passive damage. No other item (technically thronmail) allows any champion to sit there, do nothing, and continue to output damage. Its a massive strength. If you gave it a toggle as a buff, its stats would have to be reduced to compensate, which essentially defeats the purpose. Also, almost every item has some drawback if you actually think. The only exceptions are really Triforce, Randuin's, and SV, but those are outliers.

FantasySniperOct 21, 20142 votes

Umm... These are the ones off the top of my head:

item 3087 item 3077 for reasons already mentioned (As are Thornmail and Sunfire Cape for reasons already mentioned) Most jungling items, as they lose features from item 1039 (although debatable, as they are more than made up for) item 3093 loses its gold generation upon upgrade. (This item is a rant for another day)

Otherwise, I don't see drawbacks on items.

NarasimhaOct 21, 20142 votes

You're just looking at whats there. Look at whats not there as well.

item 3075 Best anti adc item around. Doesn't help a whit against mages though. item 3083 Best health item in the game. Gives 0 armor and resists. item 3031 An ADC's core item. GIves absolutely no attack speed or sustain. item 3035 Some call it op. Fact is, its actually gold inefficient unless the opponent has a lot of armor.

And so on and so forth.

Maximum ShyvanaOct 21, 20142 votes

You're just looking at whats there. Look at whats not there as well.

Best anti adc item around. Doesn't help a whit against mages though. Best health item in the game. Gives 0 armor and resists. An ADC's core item. GIves absolutely no attack speed or sustain. Some call it op. Fact is, its actually gold inefficient unless the opponent has a lot of armor.

And so on and so forth.

item 3068 Subpar defensive item due to lackluster stats sacrificed for a small amount of aoe dot that doesn't scale well without mpen (which most bruisers and tanks don't build) and no magic resist. Purchase of which can also lead to buyers death through more than one method (baron/dragon agro, position give away through minions and jungle creeps, unnecessary tower shots).

You just listed the obvious, no item is a complete package and does everything, that's why we have six item slots. Sunfire is far from a great stat item but also has massive gamechanging mechanical disadvantages attached as well whereas no other item does something remotely similar.

Let's stop pretending there's any problem with having more control over when you proc the damage, because best case scenerio enemies will still take the same damage and do the same damage as they would facing you if you didn't have a toggle. The item isn't even close to op right now especially compared to the likes of item 3157 and item 3153 and could stand to use some love anyway. It simply allows for healthier, more intuitive, and normal gameplay.

FantasySniperOct 21, 20141 votes

That's a lack of benefit, not a detriment to it. There's a huge difference between "pros only" and "pros with cons".

DaejinTyeOct 20, 20147 votes

Regardless of which side you're on... It's at least worth a passing test on the PBE.

EdasichOct 19, 20145 votes

The Sunfire Cape is a tank item, so creeps would be a minor annoyance at best.
By the time you start drawing tower aggro, you'll probably be tanky enough to consistently dive.
Every item has the downside of trading away some potential for other potential. In the cape's case, it's trading away committed defense for an overall balance in offense and defense.
Some people would be too stupid to remember when to turn the toggle back on.

FantasySniperOct 20, 20148 votes

This isn't at all a problem for the smaller ones, but Wight, buff monsters, Dragon, Baron, and Turrets have notoriously high damage once you catch their aggro, even for tanks. (Also, don't forget they will reveal your general location regardless)
Diving doesn't matter, getting aggro is a part of that. The problem is doing it unintentionally and without the desire for it.
Items don't trade potential; you spend potential on getting it. In essence, you're not giving away an advantage you already had, you're just choosing which one you get. The only other cases comparable to Sunfire Cape are the Gp5 items since they prevent multiple, but this is simply a balancing act to prevent stacking them, like with all unique passives.
Admittedly, this cannot be avoided, but that's their own fault...

EdasichOct 21, 20142 votes

The point is that the Sunfire Cape could use a change to make it more exciting, but making its passive a toggle is a bad idea because of stupid people. Were that specific change to be implemented, those people would start running to the forums and scream stuff like "firecape bork rito fix plz!!!!!!!!" nonstop. And nobody wants that.

FantasySniperOct 21, 20142 votes

Should that problem arise (and I sincerely doubt it will), action will be taken. This is about ensuring the item isn't left alone with its implementation error.

Also, since when do we listen to stupid people? Especially when they're screaming at the top of their lungs like a child that just got his toy taken away and screaming "It's not fair! Make it stop!" with no proper explanation whatsoever.

If there are things you wish to suggest to improve its fun factor, please do share.

EdasichOct 21, 20143 votes

What about this?

Unique Passive: Solar Embers Stores 10% damage from any source dealt to the wearer (max 50 (+25 per level)). The cooldown of this item is reduced by 1 second per 10 damage taken from enemy champions and epic monsters.

Unique Active: Nova Flame Deals 75 (+ 75% stored damage) magic damage to all nearby enemies. Affected enemies then take 25 (+25% stored damage at time of detonation) magic damage over 3 seconds. 120 second cooldown. 400 range.

FantasySniperOct 21, 20142 votes

For the passive, is it damage before or after resistance calculations? If it's before, you'll have to lessen the amount of flat CDR. If it's after, you'll have to improve the stored damage ratio.

The active is great, no visible issues, and it would be really fun to have tanks receive direct benefits for taking damage.

EdasichOct 21, 20142 votes

If it's before, the CDR could scale with champion level., ex. 1 second per 28 (- 1 per level) damage. If it's after, the ratio could be 15 or 20%. Nothing unreasonable.

Remlap1223Oct 20, 20144 votes

It's obviously not going to happen. They'd much rather give Garen a stupid jungle monster buff at level 11 despite Garen not being a jungler. It makes NO sense. But when has Riot operated on common sense?

Vellich0rOct 20, 20145 votes

thats actually because he builds sunfire cape. Riot realized this and didnt want him to randomly lose his passive because sunfire cape aggroed a jungle monster, it felt unfair, thus proving that riot sees a problem with sunfire cape ironically enough.

Remlap1223Oct 20, 20144 votes

But why can't they just add a toggle? Seriously, they're willing to give Garen a passive immunity at level 11 but not a sunfire toggle? Like what the hell?

Vellich0rOct 21, 20142 votes

oh, i agree, thats actually why i said that, if you notice the last part where i said, "proving that riot sees a problem with sunfire cape" I was referring to the fact that they recognize the disadvantages of having it untoggleable.

Remlap1223Oct 21, 20141 votes

I noticed, but I'm saying they're willing to give Garen special immunity but not make it toggleable? Why not just give him Monster Immunity at the start and make Garen a possible jungler instead?

ChimeiTekinaNasuOct 21, 20141 votes

It's obviously not going to happen. They'd much rather give Garen a stupid jungle monster buff at level 11 despite Garen not being a jungler. It makes NO sense. But when has Riot operated on common sense?

Remember the patch to Garen before the change to his passive?? "Garen can now activate Tiamat/Hydra passive once again while spinning. This is for all you jungle Garens out there". I'm like "...What???? Who jungles Garen????..... O.o". Like wtf. So I guess if you jungle Garen, Hydra is definitely gonna be an early item for you. Like okay, Rito. If you say. Are you TRYING to FORCE Garen into the jungle?? O.o

DUDE BROOct 20, 20144 votes

item 3075 ? It's one of the risks that comes from buying an auto damage item. Chogath can toggle his E because it's always on him. Buying firecape/thornmail or not is your choice and it has the downside of tower aggro.

FantasySniperOct 20, 20142 votes

This too, should get it's own toggle. Nice one.

Rustling BushOct 19, 20143 votes

why is catching creeps bad?

FantasySniperOct 19, 20146 votes

Scenario 1: You're trying to hide in a bush, you catch wraiths/golems/minions, your stealth just became worthless, especially with how minions reveal champs in brush once they're aggro-ed. Scenario 2: You're trying to run away, the creep follows and attacks you, revealing your location by the path they're taking.

Not to mention the damage you'll be taking, especially with Dragon and Baron. It's unlikely, but is still very possible that the creep damage is just enough to let you die in a situation where you should have survived.

SilverclawOct 20, 20143 votes

Scenario 1 isn't going to be a thing unless you're too close to the outer edges of the bush (sunfire damage range is pretty small), and Scenario 2 can be avoided with proper vision control, as creeps don't follow through unwarded bushes even if aggroed.

I've never regretted buying Sunfire Cape ever. I buy it when I want some more damage on my champion/need more waveclear. I don't go in to auto turrets if the enemy champion is around and the turret isn't almost dead to begin with in the early game, as most champions have enough cc that the turret will practically solo you.

Also, riot has stated that they will not do this. This has been stated before, but items like this have tradeoffs. You buy sunfire for offensive power, but in return make it harder (not impossible) to freeze the wave.

NoMonkuOct 20, 20143 votes

I think the reason why they never gave it a toggle option is because it is a pushing/wave clear item that also gives tank stats. Ionic Spark, which is basically Shiv's predecessor, was removed from the game because it functioned similarly(I think). The only other wave clear/pushing items are Tiamat and Shiv, both which are offensive oriented. As Sunfires helps you be tankier, I think the reason there is no toggle function is because it can allow that player to be a LOT more aggressive and abuse their opponents more if they can decide to not draw aggro. Also it is insane late game on tanks who can just sit and afk in fights like mumu, rammus, and zac who do a ton of magic damage and will take forever to die. I don't really see a reason to just straight up "buff" it as your so called "QoL" change just makes it so tanks can easily push into tower, then harass all they want without having to worry about drawing aggro until they want to, something they have to toe around better with the way it currently is.

FantasySniperOct 20, 20143 votes

It can be balanced should that problem arise, but atm this is an unnecessary disadvantage that's forced on the item.

I also don't see it playing out any differently during harass because Sunfire Cape doesn't influence the range of your harass, just the potency should you be in range in for it. Catching aggro will be functionally different, but regardless of how you harass, the situation won't play out any differently besides for the split-second difference while reaching the opponent should you need melee range.

clickheadOct 20, 20143 votes

''so tanks can easily push into tower, then harass all they want without having to worry about drawing aggro until they want to'' if you harass under tower, you draw tower aggro. Cape or no cape.

NovemberrRoseOct 20, 20142 votes

''so tanks can easily push into tower, then harass all they want without having to worry about drawing aggro until they want to'' if you harass under tower, you draw tower aggro. Cape or no cape.

Whoosh

OyddAWqJ5rOct 20, 20143 votes

AGREED

Maximum ShyvanaOct 20, 20143 votes

People keep trying to justify the current Sunfire mechanics, yet none of them actually give logical reasons against changing it. Why? Because there's way to many pros to a toggle and maybe one con of forgetting to use it, which if we use that logic then active items shouldn't exist at all (how many people forget to use their Zhonya's in pressure situations?)

watbeshOct 20, 20142 votes

I support your idea, but players possibly leave its toggle off forever by mistake. I hope my old thread can help... it is,

Auto-off if you go out of combat (cannot kill Mobi-boots)
The damage cannot finish monsters (giving buff, counter-jungling)
Auto-on if you hit a champion (draws turret aggro anyway) or a monster (jungling, out of turret range anyway)
...Plus manual toggle.

(edit: shortened this needlessly long post.)

FantasySniperOct 20, 20142 votes

Your ideas are good, but it leaves a lot of inherent issues with functionality and clarity.

An simple "auto-on" when you enter combat with champions doesn't sound like a bad idea, but in several situations where you would want it off, they are still left hard to control without having some convoluted measure to remedy them. (Say, if I've turned it off, within X secs it will not automatically turn itself back on, but it still lacks complete control)

Mobi-Boots are a nice touch, mind if I add that?

watbeshOct 20, 20142 votes

Feel free to use my idea as a part of yours. Take the ideas which you want, drop those which you don't. I don't really think my idea of "semi-auto" toggle is new or unique in this community.

All I want here is a (better) Sunfire improvement.

TussOct 20, 20142 votes

The only con I could see would be the potential for forgetting to turn it back on, but even then I'd still take not taking tower agro over that.

AkhaviOct 20, 20142 votes

I wonder if they'd ever consider reworking it.

Take away the passive damage completely, and shift the power onto an active with a decent amount of upfront damage + a DoT, call it Supernova or something. Just food for thought :)

FantasySniperOct 20, 20142 votes

Interesting, turning it into an offensive Randuin's Omen could work, and would assist in minimal timing teamfights and trades.