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If the only counterplay to a champion is "do not play against them and go roam"...

SaltyToplaneGoat··115 votes·21,230 views

... then something is clearly off with the basic design of said champion.

Maybe Zed needs a mini-rework so he's ACTUALLY an assassin - and not a burst mage that just happens to have a shitload of mobility.

I just do not know what i can pick into this guy. It just feels unfair - I play a mage, land my full basic-spell rotation, it maybe does, what, a thrid of his HP? He just does this shadow-> shuriken+teleport to me, AND I AM DEAD 100-0. Why does he get a shitload of damage for his effort, but when I do the same, all I get is him yawning, chugging a pot, and then killing me the moment I try this again?

Also I'd love to get my jungler to help, but there's three outcomes: he used living shadow and a) I am dead or b) he used it to poke and is now playing super safe until it is back up, or c) he uses it to port away.

So then i go roam - but hey guess what, that's actually his thing, because, you know, "assassin" and stuff. So I must play this game in a way in which he by design outperforms me.

To conclude: for the same effort I deal less damage, he dicates completly what happens in the lane, and I must play the game completly by his rules. Also I need to adjust my item build with extra getting item 3157 and delying everything else, while he just keeps building his normal stuff he'd get anyways.

How does this even remotely feel fair?

Also yeah I hate LeBlanc for the same reasons. But I only got one ban. Fuck their designs, really.

198 Comments

NoJustice19 votes

zed usually not a problem for me. He's high skill lvl champion and hes AD which usually means team COMP is compromised when hes picked. So I think zed is fine.

Step Sis Lux9 votes

HIGH SKILL, nice joke maybe he was before buffs

NoJustice9 votes

have u ever tried playing him? he's pretty hard to use. I don't play mid I play jng with shaco and graves so I think I could learn him pretty well but I just hate mid lane I like adc supp n jng

Step Sis Lux6 votes

yes i played him like 3 times only to check how HIGH SKILLED he is, and he is not

shockprimex7 votes

Has a higher skill cap then Lux.

Step Sis Lux3 votes

Atleast she has only skillshots not like this brainless zed

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

With such stupid hitbox and range, she's definitly at least brainless like zed (want to say even more). Janna and your lulu are more braindead btw.

Step Sis Lux2 votes

I played like 10 games with janna and lulu, and btw i know thats why im playing them

DuskDaUmbreon30 votes

It doesn't matter how much skill he takes.

There's almost no skill expression against him. He could literally be the hardest champion in the game to use, and take hundreds of thousands of games, but as he is, there's just nothing the person fighting him can do skill-wise.

Sure, you can save your CC and hit him with it just as he lands from ult. But if you don't have a stun or silence? Not gonna stop him. He'll still EQAA ignite you, and you're still going to die. And if your hard CC is necessary for you to actually get a kill? He's automatically made your best possible score in lane 0/0 by merely existing. And that's assuming you play perfectly. He never has to ult you at all. He can just roam bot and get a kill there, because you can't shit on him enough before he can roam, because the absolute most you can do is poke him down to half, before you can't afford to spend any more mana.

And, sure, he's an assassin, so he needs to get ahead, and he's effectively lost lane if he went even. The problem is you can't afford to counter roam, because a 1v2 (even if you could win it) with Zed in it is a death sentence, because you need your CC to keep his jungler from beating your face in, but you need to save your CC to not die to his ult.

Hence why he's so fucking cancerous to fight. Your only option is to go even unless you hard-counter him, and pray to god your team doesn't feed him any kills. And that's less likely to happen at low tier than for the entire enemy team to decide to go AFK.

Handin Out Naps10 votes

So if that is the case why do only low elo players say these things? Is it that there is nothing skill wise you can do against him ,or are you guys just not good enough to actually do anything about him?

DuskDaUmbreon11 votes

Because it's a problem biggest in low tier.

In higher tier, you can rely on your team to not feed him as bad. In low tier, you cannot. It's just not possible to.

It only takes one person to get him fed. And once he's 3/0 or 4/0, it doesn't matter how good you are, since he's fed and is going to kick your ass regardless of the amount of CC you have.

Toothierosprey33 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't matter how much skill he takes.

There's almost no skill expression against him. He could literally be the hardest champion in the game to use, and take hundreds of thousands of games, but as he is, there's just nothing the person fighting him can do skill-wise.

Skill expression in 1v1s is basically kiting, dodging skillshots and playing around cooldowns. That's pretty much all you can do, no matter the champion. You have to dodge Zed's Qs if you want to come out ahead, or just abuse him when his skills are on cooldown.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Do you mean skill expression in 1v1 lanes? Because if you do, the biggest skill expression in 1v1s is how you manipulate the minion waves to give yourself an automatic victory. Simple example: You get a 3-wave slow push into the enemy as Viktor vs Zed and then you coordinate a dive on Zed with your jungler, making him miss about 8-9 cs from the stacked wave. You already won lane and you can abuse Zed at that point. You can even just unload all your level 3 combo on Zed and force him to back. Even diving him and giving him a 1 for 1, while making him lose all that cs is still favorable to you.

Toothierosprey31 votes

But that's mostly a misplay from Zed and his team. If your team is able to set up a slow push and coordinate a dive then Zed's team should be able to recognize whats happening and either countergank or just prevent viktor from slow pushing in the first place.

Snowman Arc1 votes

First of all, Viktor has complete control of the lane. Zed can't do anything about it. Second, you can NEVER recognize for sure if someone wants to slow push so they can dive you. It's very rare that the enemy team will actually think about it and try to stop it. It only happens in professional games.

Toothierosprey31 votes

I'm pretty sure Zed doesn't have that difficult of a time in that lane.. He can at least spam his abilities to thin the wave. If you see the wave stacking and their team is able to dive you, there's a good chance they will. As a jungle main, this is one of the easiest ways to countergank if you don't have vision of the enemy jungler, because this type of dive happens all the time.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Well, maybe now that Viktor can push Zed out of lane as easily, when Zed can invest into Resolve to survive early.

Nyarlathοtep16 votes

I love how a good chunk of the comments in this thread are, pick x to counter him. Like yeah SURE BUD, im going to pick a champ that im not used just so i will win my lane. Awesome idea. Now what afterwards? I might had countered him, but chances are that i dont know that said champ very well. So i dont know how am i supposed to play mid and late game. See the problem with this idea?

SooFr0sty5 votes

They didn't list one or two counters, they listed several. Learn one or two and then you can start learning how to play against zed.

If you counter pick yourself, you can't complain about doing bad.

Disembark23 votes

So what you’re saying is that you should be allowed to blind pick your main into any matchup?

New thread: omg no counterplay to Kayle, I pick Zed/Fizz/Talon every game and this champ is so OP!?!?!!

Sun Wu Ryuumoku6 votes

So what you’re saying is that you should be allowed to blind pick your main into any matchup?

If their were better they could.

I agree with him, "using x against y" isn't a good advice. i don't buy the whole bitching about zed tho.

KingRaffa1 votes

Then ban him. If you refuse to actually counter pick and instead like taking squishy mages that zed can delete, that's on you. Let me guess, you refuse to rush a zhonya because you'd rather have more dmg. Counters exist in this game, that isn't a bad thing

Ariel the Cruel6 votes

Just going out on a limb here. But isn't the Zhonyas argument that people want mana, not damage?

Velzard of Koz4 votes

Also Zhonyas has such CD it's not as OP against him as people make it to be. At best it will allow you to survive but have to leave lane anyway. At worst you technically nullify his ult but you cannot cover both his ult damage and his kit damage.

Either you Zhonyas right away so his ult does no damage because he cannot accumulate it, then he uses his entire combo once you leave, which cannot kill you before he's like 2/0 with Duskblade but basically is forced leave out of lane anyway, or you use it after he applies his kit damage and block the ult damage that would finish you off, but unless the entire team comes to rescue or you flashed and are balls-deep under turret, he very likely can finish you off with his basic kit anyway as long as he has shadow or started full Energy or both, which good Zed will.

More pain in the ass aspect of Zhonyas is how the Armor reduces Zed's damage, but he would be cancer otherwise so it kind of equalizes itself.

Nyarlathοtep4 votes

Which what i do when im mid. Using the argument, "counterpick him" is stupid. I should not under ANY circumstances be forced to counterpick someone. Especially when i'm not playing his counterpicks.

I dont want to snowball against him. I just want to survive his laning phase when im playing safe.

And i do build zhonyas if i see that zed is good.

Elisheva9 votes

A champion that has no direct counter that is near impossible to win against is itself a poorly designed, over powered champion. Similar to the class system is typical MMO's, one class will always flat out dominate another, while being weak against another.

dunder kill50 votes

Zed has a ton of direct counters.

Annie Anivia Lissandra Malzahar Vladimir Zilean Talon Akali

The thing about Zed is that when he ults you, he gives you a .75 second warning that he is going to appear at an exact spot. Any champ that can just drop CC or disappear at that moment negates his kit.

Second, you can just build item 3157 or take summoner 3

Nyarlathοtep6 votes

Talon is a direct counter? I mean both the rest mages have the tools to deal with im (and akali can safely handle him) but how does talon counters him?

dunder kill21 votes

Easy. Your poke is much lower CD. Your level 2-5 all-in is much stronger. At 6 if Zed ever ults you just pop yours then all in him. Zed has no actual reasonable way to rush armor early. He loses all-ins. He loses poke. He loses the waveclear battle. He's gated by longer cooldowns. He cant roam nearly as well.

Nyarlathοtep3 votes

Talons poke is his w which has 9 seconds over to zed's q which is 6. And in order for talon's to deal any sort of real damage it needs to return. Though you can argue that since zed is melee he will be easier to get hit by both instances of w's damage. So overall maybe they are kinda tied on the poke department? I dont know if talon's all ins in those levels are stronger than zed, i do however know that zed has his w which duplicates his q and e so he can potentially cast an additional q and/or e from that shadow. So maybe zed has a tiny little bit better all in than talon. On the other hand talon can all in much frequent since he doesnt have to wait for 22 seconds. Basically what i said in another comment "So the match could actually be more or less a skill match up, both on a macro and micro level. Maybe it favours talon".

dunder kill13 votes

Zed's Q poke is complete garbage.

Zed throws his spinning blades forward, dealing Attack damage physical damage to all enemies they pass through, reduced to 60% against units beyond the first

Spamming Q is absolute dogshit waveclear and harass. You use it to last hit. The only time Zed can chunk you is with his W which is a 22 second CD.

Stand in your wave and it does practically zero damage. If Zed ever walks up to Q you just trade with your W + Q and all in. You win easily.

Tumble OP6 votes

Zed : Clicks R “Muahaha, I’ve got you now” Talon : “Bitch what?” Clicks R

Talon can also trade better and more frequently. Talon can easily all in kill you levels 2-5 much easier than zed can.

YumaS2Astral5 votes

{quoted}

Zed has a ton of direct counters.

Annie Anivia Lissandra Malzahar Vladimir Zilean Talon Akali

The thing about Zed is that when he ults you, he gives you a .75 second warning that he is going to appear at an exact spot. Any champ that can just drop CC or disappear at that moment negates his kit.

Second, you can just build item 3157 or take summoner 3

Replace Anivia with Fizz, she isn't good against Zed, but Fizz is good against Zed

Also, there are some other obscure counters that you could play if you are desperate, or if you know them well. Examples include Lulu Chogath Malphite Tryndamere Kayle MasterYi

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Well, Zed can dodge the shark with ult so ... :/

YumaS2Astral5 votes

{quoted}

Well, Zed can dodge the shark with ult so ... :/

Fizz would have to be in range and Zed would have to time his ult incredibly well.

Also, Fizz himself can avoid the mark with his trollpole. Untargetable effects can waste Zed's ult, making it go on cooldown without any effect. That is one of the reasons why Fizz can counter Zed.

Trias00010 votes

{quoted}

Zed has a ton of direct counters.

Lissandra

That's a myth or maybe a relic of the past when she did counter Zed. Nowadays Lissandra's winrate in this matchup is 49%.

Coronet13 votes

Zed has 52% win rate against Malzahar.

Zed counters Malzahar. Maybe just for once, you could get a fresh info instead of repeating old disproven "truths".

Anivia and Vlad is also Zed favouring matchup.

The thing about assasins is the game just becomes, at least for the mid laner, all about them.

Did I match his roams and kept him from getting fed? If yes well, I did a good job. Did I not die in lane, avoided his harras and farmed safely? If yes, I did my job. Did I itemize optimally against him? If yes, I did a good job. Did my team respected his roams, listened to my pings? If yes, we did a good job. Did my jungler help me and try to make him as irrelevant as possible? If yes, he did a good job.

Do you see the pattern here? Once an assasin like Zed is this strong, the whole game is warped around him.

And now, since mages early are weaker than ever, it's actually so hard to do this. All it takes is just one mistake from you or your bot lane and he is off and running and you are now playing scared about where he is going to pop up and if you are going to stop him.

You never hear this about mages, do you. Wow, we have to play scared about the Orianna, she has 4 kills. Wow, the Malzahar is strong, I hope he doesn't target me. Oh no, the Lux got tripple kill, game over.

No, never.

That's why I hate playing against assasins, because suddenly, you are there not to carry, but to prevent them from carrying.

If this was LCK, I'd say.. ok, no problem, Gorrila here will just stun his ass, gives the team shields or whatever. This doesn't apply in solo Q. People don't pay attention. People don't respect pings. People always chase for that "one auto" to secure kills. And this is the environment all assasins thrive in.

Talking about Malz specifically, his early game damage is just not enough anymore to punish the Zed. All he has to do is go Bone Plating and Chrysalis, buy three pots and he just sustains through your damage, he one shots your voidlings with one Q and often just flat out outpushes you and is free to do whatever he wants.

Skeletons Grave3 votes

Annie loses till 6 and then loses again after zed gets hexdrinker. Anivia is incredibly squishy and short range. Liss has a terrible lane phase, is really short range, and doesnt have enough damage or mana to pose a threat for awile. Malz barely works. Vlad has super short range and weak damage early so he will get poked out of lane super hard. No1 plays zilean. Talon is a skill matchup that i would put in zeds favor. Zeds poke hits way harder, is easier to land, and shorter cooldown. Akali has shroud but its very easy to play around and bait out.

I suggest cho, ahri, ekko, ori, yasuo or azir

Ultîma2 votes

Most of the champions you've listed actually do poorly against him. Anivia, Lissandra, Malzahar and Vlad all lose the majority of the time against him. Annie is also largely one of the worst mid laners in the game at the moment. Akali also gets absolutely destroyed in the laning phase against Zed; that matchup is completely dependent on Akali getting fed in order to win, and even then her tools are simply not as good as Zed.

Zed is incredibly oppressive right now, and has been multiple times before due to how his kit invalidates counterplay for immobile characters. This "get Zhonyas" and Exhaust rhetoric always comes up whenever people rightfully points out that he's bullshit to play against.

WorksAtAGayBar8 votes

It's his laning that's an issue, not fighting him. He can shove too efficiently for almost no cost at all with how fast energy will regenerate. He actually has quite a bit of counterplay when he goes in, I just wish he was more like leblanc in terms of his ability to wave clear.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

yea

i wonder why he isn't picked in MSI if his shoving ability is SO GOOD

P0IS0N IVY5 votes

Use your logic a bit. Assassins don't exactly have a good history in laning in proplay. They excel at picking people off, ie disorganized teams in which people are out of position and don't understand matchups. This happens mostly at low elo but also in solo queue in which you are unable to communicate as efficiently. If Zed were to be picked in proplay, he wouldn't get any kills cuz mia would immediately be called. Mid would only engage if the jungler was with them. And when midgame rolls around, Zed doesn't have enough of an edge to kill anyone before he gets blown up. This goes for any assassin really. What Zed has over the others that makes him better is free waveclear. But it doesn't matter much if you are unable to push the advantage.

ZackTheWaffleMan4 votes

Malphite. Pick Malphite.

sobi9994 votes

"Fuck their designs, really."

you snatched the words from my mouth

4eva1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller5 votes

Congratulations, you have accomplished increasing peoples' butthurt, while doing nothing to solve the problem or persuade anyone to actually agree with you.

Pro-tip: next time you want to prove a point, don't bash people for being lower rank than you.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

He's not wrong, though. Sometimes "you're bad" is a valid reason. Embarrassingly, I can't do a pull-up. They're not particular hard. I'm just fucking weak. Lol. Zed isn't, currently, that strong of a champ. He does eat noobs, though.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

That's entirely irrelevant. Being correct doesn't make something helpful. If someone wishes to give advice or persuade others to think differently, then they had best try to present their ideas in a manner that is palatable for their audience.

Otherwise they're just strutting their stuff and flashing their feathers like a peacock trying to show off how much better they are than everyone else.

You can choose to speak helpfully or you can choose to speak arrogantly, you can't have both. And speaking so arrogantly is not welcome here.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

You're right. "Get better" is what he should have said. That is helpful.

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