There is no such thing as "late-game" anymore

Fed by Snu Snu·Nov 14, 2014·35 votes·5,297 views

When Damage is so obscene that only specific champions that were called "mega-tanks" can survive in any form of engage, 200 armor means you are still a squishy, 150 MR means you are still a squishy and in general the damage scales SO hard, there is no difference if X champion does more damage than Y champion, when the damage of champion Y is enough to melt most frontlines pressented to them anyway.

It doesn't matter if Syndra does more damage than Ahri, if Ahri's damage is enough to kill any and all squishies, while having an easier time getting there as well.

Without a front line to matter when it comes to these threats, there is no late game that matters for the back line.

There is no interactions currently, it's all about cherry picking. There's little strategy involved in that other than ward control.

100 Comments

pNIeZVuIodNov 14, 201417 votes

This has been my problem with league of legends since season 4 started. Riot is so obsessed with keeping players interested in LCS so they have to make every minute of it entertaining that it makes laning phase contribute to 75% or more of the games outcome. I also think its stupid that magic penetration is built into mages kits, and also Last Whisper penetrates 35 percent of armor but even 2 armor items does not come out to 35 percent reduced damage. They want this stupid flashy insta kill plays to keep viewers interested even though its boring and stale.

Chaotic ReksNov 14, 201412 votes

hmmm, sounds like COD

ScurvyNaveNov 15, 20147 votes

I have to agree the LCS has too much of an impact on the game for us regular players. They want big flashy plays and continuous action so long games are viewed negatively and the late game is never reached. The landing phase is overpowered when deciding how a game is going to end. Plus every champ that gets picked in the LCS gets nerfed almost immediately because its "OP" in top competitive play such as Maokai, Alistar, and tristan a recently and Shyvana in the past . Yet the flashy play making Thresh and Lee Sin get a free pass from nerfs since they are great for entertainment value in LCS.

EMetaNov 15, 20142 votes

Riot tends to nerf champs that win more than their fair share. Currently Thresh is winning only about 48% of his games in ranked & less in normal. Lee Sin hovers around a 45% win rate, putting him very close to the bottom 10 of all champs. You want to make those numbers even farther from 50%?

What elo do you play at that Mao, ALi & Trist didn't need those nerfs? I know I went from seeing Trist a ban/pick in almost all games to having her be just another good adc. That was great. I play in low gold/high silver and from my perspective, all their balancing in the last 5 patches have been right on the mark. Yes, even my champs (Ryze is no longer auto win for me).

RoyaiChaosNov 15, 201415 votes

Wut, how does Ahri have an easier time kill squishies? Ahri has to land charm, Syndra only has to press r. And actually, because everyone is so strong, there is strategy involved. Every skill shot is worth something, every action is now important. One mess up or positioning mistake (such as getting hit by Ahri charm) means it's gg.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 15, 201415 votes

Syndra has to set up a ball count and not get blown up herself. It's not the same as blowing someone in a 1v1.

Additionally, you are confusing strategy with execution. Strategy includes short term execution and long term planning. The game currently relies much less on long term planning than what it did 2 years ago, thus it's less strategical.

A positioning mistake is not a strategical mistake. It's bad execution.

GigahappytownNov 15, 20142 votes

Syndra has to set up a ball count and not get blown up herself. It's not the same as blowing someone in a 1v1.

Additionally, you are confusing strategy with execution. Strategy includes short term execution and long term planning. The game currently relies much less on long term planning than what it did 2 years ago, thus it's less strategical.

A positioning mistake is not a strategical mistake. It's bad execution.

I'm sorry but no. I logged in just to downvote this You simply CANNOT justify how easy syndra is

JunkοNov 15, 20143 votes

Meanwhile Veigar press R to kill enemy laner without having to set up a ton of balls

RatbertNov 15, 20142 votes

cause veigar has that fantastic aoe and sustained damage.

Bears Dont CareNov 16, 20141 votes

Wut, how does Ahri have an easier time kill squishies? Ahri has to land charm, Syndra only has to press r.

No...not really but its good people continue to exaggerate.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 17, 20141 votes

item 3128

Ad Astra per AspNov 14, 20149 votes

Well you could always take a time machine to season 2 where all tank teams were common and winning involved "fights", a slow process which is comparable to paint drying.

Offense is already at a statistical disadvantage to defensive stats for gold spent. It's just offensive builds are common because to make large changes to the game you need kills so you can get objectives and they are easier to get if you load up offensively.

Earl EulrichNov 15, 20147 votes

Well you could always take a time machine to season 2 where all tank teams were common and winning involved "fights", a slow process which is comparable to paint drying.

I really loved having Teamfights that included more than short serieses of burst, wehre the team with more dmg is guranteed to come out on top, as tanks acomplish nothing anymore. I would absolutely play on an S2 Server if that would be a thing...and I know already some people that would join me.

There´s just no use in defensive itemization currently...you lose out on multiplicators (health+arm or mr, yay -.-) - Ap has 3 (AP, Pen, CDR), AD 4 (AD,AS,Crit, Pen) - and you lose out on slot-efficiency (all def-itmes cap at ~3k gold, offensive stuff goes to 3,8k). So stacking defense is absolutely useless, because the more you get the more you get outscaled...so the best way is to just get dmg and try to blow up squishies in your 3-5sec of Ttl, even on a tank. It´s a highly frustrating Situation, and very snowbally aswell. Def <-> Off balancing had been far better in S2, Riot really should try more actively to bring back tanks into the game.

HitsFromTheBombNov 15, 20142 votes

I would absolutely play on an S2 Server if that would be a thing...and I know already some people that would join me.

u gave me ideas ... legacy servers .... that needs to be a thing , play in your preferred season of nerfs/buffs

DigitalityNov 15, 20149 votes

Well you could always take a time machine to season 2 where all tank teams were common and winning involved "fights", a slow process which is comparable to paint drying.

Offense is already at a statistical disadvantage to defensive stats for gold spent. It's just offensive builds are common because to make large changes to the game you need kills so you can get objectives and they are easier to get if you load up offensively.

You must have a different memory of season 2 than I did. Laning was passive, and usually lasted 20 minutes of zzzfarming. Had to wait for the ADCs to ramp up! Bruisers mattered, able to punish bad positioning. Carries still dominated the game when executed well. To the point that top end comps were often solely dedicated to protecting them.

A Retarded ClownNov 15, 20149 votes

This is precisely whatI tried to say earlier.

There is NO strategy. None. Dodging that snare last second to press R and drop one person is not strategy it's 'execution' which should be important but when there is no strategy and only execution, this becomes CoD

Arch Mage MagnusNov 14, 20147 votes

It's true. More-so there is no comeback mechanic - at all. Like Chide said, at 15 mins, most games can be declared who is going to win. The only comeback is a back door play (which is like 1-100) or a team sneaks Baron. Now even if a team sneaks Baron, it doesn't mean much if you are losing. you still need to make it back to base without being ganked. All it usually does is delay the inevitable, as even with Baron buff it's usually not enough to sway the difference between you and a fed team.

Riot is taking the direction with Dragon buff to help struggling teams.... but honestly, if a team has already killed Dragon 3 times, what makes you think you can sneak in and take it when said team already has the buffs, and map control.

Sailor MintNov 15, 20144 votes

I really wish it was still the case.

It's still too hard to close games with the complete lack of snowballing. It's depressing to have a massive lead at 15 and the enemy team doesn't have the decency of surrendering because the longer you stall the more likely the game will be decided by a coin flip. Best case scenario, game takes 10-20 minutes longer than it should have.

ProfDrDeathNov 14, 20146 votes

What?

If anything, this season was all about the late-game, especially after the patch 4.10 hit.

And comeback mechanics?

Dragon (and jungle in general) granting more XP to the losing team? Check. Inhibitors being down for 4 min and downing one only strengthens the minions in the respective lane? Check.

You don't get a comeback automatically by picking late-game champions and getting yourself get stomped early. You need to work for that and play intelligently, you know?

Fed by Snu SnuNov 14, 20148 votes

All about late game?

Lol, if we call having a carry with an Infinity Edge and a Statik Shiv "late game" nowadays, I can't argue against that. Whatever floats your boat as "late game".

chumblerNov 16, 20144 votes

Mid game is the part of the game that died, not late game. And mid game was only ever barely on life support at best due to terrible item design.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 16, 20143 votes

Mid game pretty much doesn't exist at this point. It's all about those IE crits and cherry picks.

Which then means that no real late game exists either, not without one team throwing hard at least.

JJI744Nov 15, 20143 votes

I really, really hope I got the math right on this. But there IS a difference in damage output. An Ashe with IE+PD+LW+BT+AS boots takes about 8.5s to kill a 200 armor target with 3kHP. Jinx with the same items takes ~6.5s.

Arch Mage MagnusNov 15, 20145 votes

I really, really hope I got the math right on this. But there IS a difference in damage output. An Ashe with IE+PD+LW+BT+AS boots takes about 8.5s to kill a 200 armor target with 3kHP. Jinx with the same items takes ~6.5s.

Take a stop watch, or actually count out 6.5 seconds. For an ADC with that gear to shred a tank, it's more like 3 seconds.

ProfDrDeathNov 15, 20144 votes

Wrong.

If it takes 3 seconds to kill that target, chances are there were either more than 1 champion involved or that tank was already at less than half HP.

JJI744Nov 15, 20143 votes

I really, really hope I got the math right on this. But there IS a difference in damage output. An Ashe with IE+PD+LW+BT+AS boots takes about 8.5s to kill a 200 armor target with 3kHP. Jinx with the same items takes ~6.5s.

Take a stop watch, or actually count out 6.5 seconds. For an ADC with that gear to shred a tank, it's more like 3 seconds.

I'm afraid I don't have the time available right now (though if you do try it yourself, let me know the results.) but a quick search found this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1TzFCoBH8

At 27:27 you see Ashe crit Nunu for 268. Nunu has under 200 armor, but Ashe has a Vamp Scepter, not a full BT., so we'll call it roughly even.

Regardless, 268*1.5 (Ashe's AS) =400DPS.

3000HP/400~=7.5s. But this is assuming a 100% crit chance. Since she doesn't have 100% crit chance, that number gets pushed up further.

Again, the math is (most likely) not 100% accurate yet, but its in the right ball-park.

ModmarNov 15, 20143 votes

I love playing tank, but since the start of S3 they have been useless, S4 they started to come back but died off again. Even on a 6k hp Mundo and a decent amount of armour and mr i can get shredded in 10 seconds or less. The game is all about blowing champions up and getting minions every now and again to push the lane. LEague is starting to end up like HotS currently is where once a team gets ahead they absolutely destroy unless you can draw the game out 2 or 3 times longer than it should be. I just played a tanky Gragas with 4k hp, around 110mr and 150armour, and the enemies shut down Nidalee still speared me for almost 1k at close range. Tank champions are useless unless they can blow people up at the same time, which thankfully Grag can do.

tl;dr Tanks are only useful if they can blow people up too Burst is god The only late game that matters is 60+ minutes

FeathermaneNov 15, 20143 votes

How the hell is 150 armor and 110 mr tanky? You meet adc's with those kinds of stats. And the tank that rushes into a five man team at a time when supports are secondary AP carries better damn well get melted. If that Malphite gets to 1v5 and take out a carry, he better die for it, otherwise what's the point of playing anything else.

ModmarNov 15, 20143 votes

Malphite shouldn't rush in solo unless his team is behind him and he is initiating. Which is partial reason why ap Malph is very popular because he can initiate and get a kill or at least get the whole team low before he dies. The game is all about being able to blow 1 enemy up at a time while they are solo or being able to burst them from a safe distance so you don't get engaged on by their team and, well melted yourself. A majority of the team fights last a few seconds and the team that gets a kill first wins the fight basically unless the other team is much further ahead.

Deathball strats are very popular for this same reason, you can destroy their whole team with only sending 2 or 3 in at most.

The only time I've been able to survive a team fight as tank since S3 is by leaving after initiating or not getting instantly killed by burst since it would be used on someone else.

ZagdulNov 15, 20143 votes

The only reason there's no such thing as late game is that people give up too early.

Too many people don't understand that you can fall back and defend pretty well if you're behind rather than just throwing a game.

juice loosenerNov 15, 20143 votes

Because riot wants to remove passive games and retain more flashy aggressive plays. That and % health damage items really ruined the game for tanks after S2. Even if it's just an AP carry poking the enemy team it's easy to bring health down slowly with item 3151 or how about for ADCs enemy team build lots of HP? No problem, item 3153 . Bring whatever Pen of your choice armor or magic after that and it's gg.

Tanks reigned in S2 because they had better options that were removed or reworked when the season was over. That's if anybody remembers Leviathan, Old Warmog's, Old Banshee's, FoN and Soul Shroud just to name a few. I miss those items a lot but at that point Riot was tired of teams building 'meta-golem' they decided to gut and rework a lot items for SR. And along the way introduced better damage itemization across the board.

NeoScoutNov 16, 20143 votes

league revolves too much about damage, this is why it's gonna be hard to diversify strategies

SacenNov 16, 20143 votes

Yea now that I think about it you do have a good point.

Earl EulrichNov 15, 20142 votes

There is no interactions currently, it's all about cherry picking. There's little strategy involved in that other than ward control.

And even wardcontroll isn´t really interactive, whoever controls the map controls the vision...I feel like they really would need to make some major changes there aswell (and no, the new river-vision thing will just add to snowballing-vision).

Fed by Snu SnuNov 15, 20143 votes

Quite accurate observation indeed. Ward control on its own is quite snowbally as well.

AbodyHUN666Nov 15, 20142 votes

Still better than old pink wards and oracle potion. Now at least the losing team can control vision too.

CoolKnightSTNov 15, 20142 votes

Your are missing the point with Ahri since 50% of her damage is true damage. So it's kinda logical she can still melt tanks if they only building magic resistance. It's the health in combination with some ar & mr that makes a tank these days. Currently whe have item 3083 to deal with true damage. Add least till season 5 where warmogs health get reduced. I'm sure that MasterYi will like that.

I really hope riot thinks about a replacement for item 3207 function wise. The passives the item provided where really intressting. I really hope riot thinks about building a new item arround it. Something like:

Item A

Stats: Armor
UNIQUE - SAPPING: You gain +50% of base mana regeneration whenever you are in combat.

Item B

Build: Item A + ?
Stats: Armor, Health
UNIQUE - SAPPING: You gain +100% of base mana regeneration whenever you are in combat.
UNIQUE: +25% bonus health

I think something similar is the item a frontline tank that uses mana needs. Something that can be a worthy replacement for item 3110 & item 3025 .

BoswickNov 15, 20142 votes

I totally agree with the op here. Morello admitted that LW and voidstaff were OP ages ago (around the end of s3 I think) and then left them that way for another year. Tanks getting invalidated by a 2.4k gold item is not fair.

I would also definitely play on a s2 legacy server, especially if it removed the newer overloaded champs.

JJI744Nov 15, 20142 votes

I totally agree with the op here. Morello admitted that LW and voidstaff were OP ages ago (around the end of s3 I think) and then left them that way for another year. Tanks getting invalidated by a 2.4k gold item is not fair.

I would also definitely play on a s2 legacy server, especially if it removed the newer overloaded champs.

Context is important. According to that post, they were not OP because they are good items against tanks, but because they were good in general.

I.E. Even when your opponents had low/no armor, the %Pen was still a good investment.

Kuroi86Nov 15, 20142 votes

You do realize it's not just the 200 armor or 150 mr that makes a tank tanky yes? It's also the 4000/5000 hp he's got stacked up and the CC he's got ready to lock down a target that makes him a terror.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 15, 20142 votes

You do realize that 200 armor should be adding more than 0.5 seconds of time of being alive because it's a 75% reduction? (and even with LW it's supposed to be ~120-ish, which means 50%) This means that normally champions melt your healthpool in 0.2-0.4 seconds. That's ridiculous scaling of damage, plain ridiculous. It's borderline with the average human reaction time.

And 5000 HP currently means that you are no threat whatsoever for anyone to care about you, they might as well walk past you.

Kuroi86Nov 15, 20144 votes

This means that normally champions melt your healthpool in 0.2-0.4 seconds.

Not quite sure what math you're looking at. But I've never seen any champ melt a fully built tank in under six seconds.

And 5000 HP currently means that you are no threat whatsoever for anyone to care about you, they might as well walk past you.

Chogath DrMundo Nautilus Singed Taric Volibear Malphite Rammus

These guys dare you to walk by them, even if they build full tank, you'll either be CC locked or torn a new one.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 15, 20142 votes

Half of them aren't even remotely viable right now.

MrSlowDieNov 16, 20142 votes

These guys dare you to walk by them, even if they build full tank, you'll either be CC locked or torn a new one.

even mundo has 0% WR in s4 world :/ the others not even popular in world, and in normal too,

Power CosmicNov 15, 20142 votes

This is a great thread. I have noticed the same thing myself in ranked and normals. It is to the point now where getting a nice build is a win in itself. And this is from a players who is out there a lot and spends very little time dead. I do not think it is the game's fault though. Most players do not have any situational awareness or patience. Being able to use all the factors present to play a good game is too much for almost all players from bronze to diamond.

Great thread. Almost all games are decided in first 15 minutes during laning.

HolgranthNov 15, 20142 votes

Tanks having a late game is basically non existent these days.

ChaosThiefNov 16, 20142 votes

The only real way to have fun without all of these meta-fanboys who follow the pros regardless is probably custom games. It's sad really, but all that ever matters is indeed e-sports, which is a mistake in itself.

Let all champions be strong, not just one or two riot...

hobomann2Nov 16, 20142 votes

tanks are dead its all about who can melt who faster and everyone hates that shit give tanks means to itemize againts this meta of EVERYONE HAS CRITS and both ad and ap bursters

also:LEARN FROM DOTA 2 AND MAKE CRITS HARD AS SHIT TO GET

BossHogginCalebNov 15, 20141 votes

This isnt very clear at all, there is a late game as in builds being completed and being able to work together. some champion combos are stronger late game than others.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 15, 20143 votes

"Stronger" is a word relevant only to what it is applied upon.

Let's say that you have Scenario A. Scenario A is able to do 5000 damage within 1 second. Scenario B can do 3000 damage within 1 second, but it is more flexible and more reliable.

Your needs never exceed 3000 damage within 1 second.

Is Scenario A relevant in terms of power compared to your needs? Does that extra damage ever find a use?

The answer is no. And it gets to even a bigger no when we start including % damages in, which are oh so often now.