Nasus could do with a mini-rework

Big Lincoln··5 votes·1,021 views

since riot's giving a lot of much-needed love to juggernauts lately, and Nasus isn't doing so hot right now, I think it would be a good time to talk about him and his place in league. I think Nasus is plagued by a couple of issues that could be solved in a relatively small-scope update, to make him less of a strain to balance

  • Late game fantasy

this is the original selling point of Nasus, that you can farm up and then become a late game monster. this is probably central to what i find his other flaws to be; his inability to fight tanks (which is supposed to be a staple of carry-type juggernauts, or carries in general), and his sort of 'noob trap' design with Q

  • Can't deal with tanks

this is the easiest to address. Nasus just does not work well against tanks or in tank metas, because he just doesn't have the means to put a dent in them after they have 2 armor items or more. this also worsens his ability to sustain off of them, which will be compounded if/when that new GW tank item comes out. so my suggestions are thus;

  • change his passive to heal for a flat value, based on his Q damage (either a flat value that scales up with stacks, or a direct % of his Q damage) and

  • change his E into % reduction. (if too powerful, change his E to % penetration so that only he can benefit from it)

the first change, I think is ultimately beneficial because it gives him target agnostic sustain, which is common for newer juggernaut designs (Darius, Illaoi, Yorick and Udyr all have this). his sustain with a item 3057 becomes worse, so it's a hit to his early draintanking and by extension, his early game, but I think with the right tuning he would be allowed to have much stronger lifestealing capabilities in the mid-late game.

the second change should be obvious enough; Nasus needs some tank-busting power. for a champion who is both meant to be a carry and is an immobile melee, not being able to hurt tanks makes it difficult to want to anything except split push, and Nasus is one of the most binary splitpushers in the game. So, I think some power should be levied into making him more able to teamfight, by letting him work through the front line a little more quickly.

  • Q is a noob trap

this is more of a player-by-player thing. nasus Q gives the promise of infinite scaling, and thus an immensely powerful late game when given the time to stack it, but because of the nature of nasus in his current state many higher ELO players simply go for maxing E and putting off his stacking entirely, in favor of early-mid game strength, because Q max doesn't yield enough reward in coordinated play. i think my changes listed above address that somewhat; if he's given a late game that actually matters, I think he'll naturally gravitate back into Q max builds.

  • R sucks

this isn't really as important but I still want to complain about it. it has a really funky cast time at the start of it, which makes it difficult to R in clutch situations since you might die before actually getting your bonus health, even though you KNOW you pressed R. in addition to that, the time when your ult makes you the tankiest is right before it expires and leaves you with nothing. this actually makes it worse to kite Nasus, too, because when he reaches you, he'll be tankier than when his ult started. if nothing else i think it should be changed to just one flat value through the whole ult, or a scaling % of his bonus armor/MR, instead of the 'ramping up' flat values.

let me know what you think

15 Comments

SquashCannon2 votes

I was thinking maybe they can keep his E the same, but add something to his ult where for every second an enemy takes damage from his ult, a debuff is applied where siphoning strike ignores 2% of their total armor. The debuff lasts 15 seconds, and applies every 1 second for a maximum 30% total armor ignore with siphoning strike.

This is entirely selfish power (I think nasus should be a selfish champion) that encourages extended trades and sticking to beefy targets.

Another thing riot could do is truly demarcate E max and Q max by making this change

level 1 Q gives 1 stacks level 2 Q gives 2 stacks level 3 Q gives 3 stacks level 4 Q gives 4 stacks level 5 Q gives 5 stacks

No longer doubled on large minion/champ/monster takedowns

Slight early game nerf (but most nasi dont even have at least 20% cdr, and early game is where the absolute least amount of stacking occurs) but decent mid-late buff. E max nasus will have even less stacks as they are stuck at 1 stack per Q for a long time.

It's clear right now though Q max is troll and E max is legit in higher elo, so E max needs to be toned slightly (laning against e max nasus is fucking retarded) and Q toned up, and I think that Q change would accomplish that.

One of the reasons for E max believe it or not is because you can poke people to the point where you can last hit Q minions and actually get decent stacking, especially in traditionally harder lanes for Q max nasus. It's like a semi cheat to have decent stacking while having a MUCH better lane phase whereas Q max wouldve been forced to concede a lot of CS and thus stacking opportunities.

Big Lincoln1 votes

that's a lot of change, and i don't really want to add more power to his ult, because it's already got a lot going for it with the % damage and tank bonuses

the goals i had here were to change his power curve with as little adjustments as possible. it's no new mechanics or anything, just number adjustments and scaling changes

i think the Q change in particular would help him a lot, so he could at least draintank enemy beef walls

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1eb8J4qE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-06-29T05:36:43.284+0000)

that's a lot of change, and i don't really want to add more power to his ult, because it's already got a lot going for it with the % damage and tank bonuses

the goals i had here were to change his power curve with as little adjustments as possible. it's no new mechanics or anything, just number adjustments and scaling changes

i think the Q change in particular would help him a lot, so he could at least draintank enemy beef walls

If nothing else I'd at the very least want something like my Q proposal to be done so that E max and Q max become more distinct rather than "I'll just E max every game because I know I can get decent stacks anyways with it"

I agree though that the ramping defenses kind of fell flat. The only thing current R has going for it is that its better than the old R, but that isnt saying much.

Big Lincoln2 votes
SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1eb8J4qE,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-29T05:45:40.089+0000)

what do you think about my suggestions in the op

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160927210830-tk-ah0927-exlarge-169.jpg

Do you know me? I was tychusfindlay919 before I got that account permad from the boards lel.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/862/065/0e9.jpg

In any case, I think the E change has been a long time coming. Considering the sheer damage of siphoning strike, the flat wasnt even all that necessary against squishies anyways, but with GA being what it is, I bet a change from flat 40 at max to 25% shred would ultimately end up being about the same against squishies, if not only a little worse.

I approve of that. and then my Q change, please god, I fucking hate e max being mandatory.

Big Lincoln1 votes

nvm i don't speak to toxin players :^( ur a bad influence

Ralanr1 votes

Imo, despite it making sense since he and Renekton are brothers, I think he shouldn't have a "super mode" ult. It feels like an unimaginative and low skill level ability that might be sapping some power out of his kit (his Q is what saps the power obviously, but we can't really change his Q).

rework trundle1 votes

I'd give him something like Gain 1% armor pen per 15 stacks, caps at 1% per minute in game. Let's say you have 150 stacks at 20 minutes, you get 10% armor pen. If you have 300, you get 20%. If you have 450, you get 20%. He would reach true damage nukes at 1h40. Remove armor pen from E to compensate, give something else to E so it's not a garbage spell.

And YES his passive needs to heal pre mitigation. This is so frustrating.

If Pantheon can have 66% win rate before 25 mins, Nasus can have 66% win rate after 40 mins.

Big Lincoln1 votes

passive armor pen is nice, but i'm fond of conditions and set-ups, and I feel like his E should be something you're encouraged to fight people on top of, rather than using it purely for early game poke, if that makes sense.

that's why i happen to like Illaoi Trundle a lot; having big zones where I'm at a clear advantage and can fight people on. I want Nasus E to feel actually threatening, if Nasus can keep you on top of it

also i think i've seen you on the nasus mains sub? if so, hello; i only lurk, but i like knowing what more specialized nasus mains think

rework trundle1 votes

Yes! I joined it about 2 months ago.

I like the idea to make his E more oppressing but his huge slow kinda forces you to stay into it.

HateDaddy1 votes

It's true, Nasus has almost no ability to deal with tanks. While he doesn't die to them, he's never truly a threat to them either barring ridiculous stacks. I do think some sort of percentage healing would definitely help and I've lobbied for such a thing in the past but I believe Meddler stated they had concerns about giving Nasus such power.

Q animation is honestly not bad, but his AA and Q animation on Infernal are noticeably different. Because I'm hipster and an OG Nasus main, galactic is and will always be my favorite. But his newest skin is pretty awesome.

As for his ult, it absolutely is underwhelming at this point. I honestly think it should just grant him %damage reduction and be able to be cast through CC. In the past, I've thrown around the idea that Nasus' ult should knock enemies up similar to how Lulus does if I'm range of him - I mean, it only makes sense really. But then they'd have to do the same to Renekton and I'm not sure Renekton buffs are ever a good idea.

Nasus also suffers most from there being almost on reliable way to deal with displacements. It costs teams almost nothing to deal with champions like Nasus and I think this needs to be addressed in some sense but moreso from an itemization standpoint or game physics change because giving Nasus some sort of tool to deal with this innately definitely breaks him since kiting his supposed to be his weakness.

Big Lincoln1 votes

thank u daddy

I think the Q change would be nice just because a lot of people are getting beefier these days, either with tank stats or % reduction. and im a big sicker for quantifiable things; flat numbers appeal to me so much

maybe make R immune to displacements (or disables) on the windup like Illaoi. I think every juggernaut needs a way to prevent or counter kiting and disengage

what do you think about E?

as an aside, do you think Nasus should have incentive to trade with people early on, perhaps getting stacks for hitting champs a la Veigar?

Darkdemon6531 votes

No Nasus is going to level anything other than Q first. As for animations, they are visually different but the actual timing requirements on them are all the same. I do agree that it should be fixed, though, as it's very intuitive.

As for everything else, I don't care either way, but I just wanted to address those two things.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

No Nasus is going to level anything other than Q first. As for animations, they are visually different but the actual timing requirements on them are all the same. I do agree that it should be fixed, though, as it's very intuitive.

As for everything else, I don't care either way, but I just wanted to address those two things.

E max Nasus is pretty common in high elo actually

Big Lincoln1 votes

another route to go would be to have his Q stacks per kill increase with level, 1/2/3/4/5 which was suggested to be by someone else. this hinders his early game a little bit, but that's where he gets the least stacks, and greatly hampers E-max builds without nerfing E directly. as a QoL I think he should get stacks for all enemy takedowns regardless of whether he last hits with Q

p.s is it ok to self-bump if i edited the OP, i want more nasus discussion

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