garen buffs are huge

Big Lincoln·Nov 9, 2016·5 votes·2,423 views

7% armor shred per hit, stacking up to 35% - more than cleaver will give you. I think this makes obsolete on him due to multiplicative value giving dimishing returns on % shred; high lethality (flat pen) will get you more bang for your buck when it comes to assassinations, and edge of night, seeing as garen is more inclined to chase the back line than duel tanks up front. trying to find a good balance that keeps garen being tanky, though.

2bh i don't know why it's not flat shred giving his whole niche with the villain gimmick was supposed to make him great at shitting on carries, but that'd probably make his lane too good

discuss, garen enthusiasts

47 Comments

MimyNov 9, 20163 votes

Sense you all trash on our champion threads let me return this favor.

Garen don't need damage buffs with how tanky he is. And he defiantly isn't the slow moving warbeast he should be with 500 ms. Slow my ass.

They literally made him a beefy assassin of justice.

Appearantly any Garen. They don't need brains anymore.. Can carry his game singlehandedly with that buff.

Honestly.

Big LincolnNov 9, 20162 votes

i didnt say he needed damage buffs, i would rather have gotten a way to sustain without having to leave the fight

range players are irl cowards get rdy for league of melee, the true league experience

he was never supposed to be slow, he's just not mobile. no dashes or blinks or jumps, but his thing has always been to run at you and mow you down

Critmaster GarenNov 9, 20163 votes

ok, this will actually invalidate cleaver on him. or at least largely remove its value.

the fuck are we supposed to replace it with? there arent many ad/health options specially with cdr attached. i mean we can build cleaver anyways, but then it feels like a bit of a waste.

mabye itll just become third or fourth item now. or, ill actually replace it with death dance. if it sticks, this is going to change his build path by a lot.

edit.: scratch that. cleaver and this new passive is going to make a good 55% armor shred at full stacks.

RalanrNov 9, 20161 votes

It could make it so he rushes more defensive items early (I see Garen rush sunfire all the time for some reason in my elo) or he grabs ghostblade.

Critmaster GarenNov 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It could make it so he rushes more defensive items early (I see Garen rush sunfire all the time for some reason in my elo) or he grabs ghostblade.

you still want ad and cdr though, and cleaver is at the moment the best source of both for fighters. especially since it comes with health. not saying this isnt cool, but ill have to think a lot more about his build pathes, than which item to buy first.

might actually have to build something like item 3133 and then drop it for a defensive item with cdr and finish a ghostblade later or something weird like that.

Big LincolnNov 9, 20161 votes

yeah

I would say triforce and sterak since 300 extra damage on Q is nothing to scoff at, but he can't utilize the attack speed or the mana.

so either huge chunks of AD like DD and Maw, or probably full tank.

Christ SuperstarNov 9, 20161 votes

Yeah, not building cleaver seems pretty stupid... Still awesome stats, and since it's a 54,5% vs 35% reduction, it really seems like a nobrainer to me - could couple it with lethality runes and/or one lethality item for the lulz on the squishies. ;) On top of that, your ADC is gonna be able to eat frontlines if they're debuffed/shredded too.

Critmaster GarenNov 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Christ Superstar,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=00090002,timestamp=2016-11-09T20:43:40.589+0000)

Yeah, not building cleaver seems pretty stupid... Still awesome stats, and since it's a 54,5% vs 35% reduction, it really seems like a nobrainer to me - could couple it with lethality runes and/or one lethality item for the lulz on the squishies. ;) On top of that, your ADC is gonna be able to eat frontlines if they're debuffed/shredded too.

its like a really old idea they came up with years ago, when they remade the black cleaver from an attack speed item to a fighter item.

they were doing a garen rework in season 2 and were discussing if they wanted to put armor shred directly on his spin. they decided against it back then.

i dont know what to think of it. the fact that theyre doing it now almost looks like they couldnt come up with something better.

its a buff, so i take it. but it wouldnt be the buff id be giving him.

Christ SuperstarNov 9, 20161 votes

Out of curiosity, how would you buff him? Better give too many ideas than too few. ;)

Critmaster GarenNov 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Christ Superstar,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=0009000200000000,timestamp=2016-11-09T20:56:41.095+0000)

Out of curiosity, how would you buff him? Better give too many ideas than too few. ;)

i actually posted a bunch of ideas over the last weeks.

from something simple as buffing the q movement speed and base movement speed back to what it was to compensate for the swifties nerfs.

increasing his health/lvl scaling.

changing his w passive to scale differently and remove the 30 armor/mr cap

to reworking his passive to make it more versatile, more similar to volis passive that is both useful in combat and in lane under pressure.

Christ SuperstarNov 11, 20161 votes

I do agree his buffs aren't great - better than nothing, but they only makes him stronger vs matchups he's already ok at. :/

Actually, his passive could work something in the line of the perserverance mastery - when he's below 50%, he has 50% of the regen in combat, and at 15% and below it allows the full regen running in combat, with W doubling in combat regen for standard duration (2-6s) along with 30-60% damage reduction and tenacity (that only works for 1,0s at all ranks), forcing you to use it optimally vs burst/CC. Ofcourse the regen should be adjusted too.

Q could be a possible two click attack, 1 click for AA reset, 10% MS and decisive strike, 2nd click for new "reckless charge" effect: 100% movement speed towards champions, 100% slow resistance, but duration from the next hard CC is doubled - making it a choice - also, fuck teams with infinite applications of slows and little real CC. :P

Oh, and fully agree on buffing base MS! ;)

NovaDiskNov 12, 20161 votes

I kind of agree with you about this buff. It seems like all they are doing is making him stronger, without introducing any new outplay mechanics.

I'm really curious to see where this puts him on the power scale. All of his weaknesses are the same, they just added to his strength. In an assassin meta, the shred might not be a really huge buff, since everyone is still going to be able to outrun Garen, and nobody is building armor, but if the Tank meta ever comes back, I can see Garen being on the strong side.

55% Armor Shred pretty much renders armor ineffective to buy.

On a side note, I've been messing around with Garen support in norms, and I feel like the change actually might make it halfway viable(ish). Knight's Vow into Cleaver seems like it could be pretty nice.

NovaDiskNov 11, 20161 votes

I can see the buffs opening up two build paths for him.

Garen will be able to build Cleaver into tank, giving him enough shred to make tank Garen useful for his team (I consider Full tank Garen to be not viable in the current patch).

Skipping Cleaver will also let Garen go for a more damage-oriented build. Right now, I'm really liking the Youmuu's/Edge of Night combo, because it makes you really fast and hard to peel. It's not as strong as Infinity Edge in terms of raw damage output, but it still deals pretty decent damage.

The new Ghostblade is REALLY nice on Garen. It's 300 gold cheaper, and you get even more movespeed. The only time I miss having the attack speed is when I am hitting an undefended tower.

1 800 Top LaneNov 9, 20162 votes

Wow that might be all that Garen needs to snowball hard now.

Big LincolnNov 9, 20161 votes

it is; i dominated a trundle on pbe from level 2 (not saying much; it's mostly bronze) and did a lot of damage even vs their full tanks

it's a very nice buff but i'm not sure how much i will need to change my build to accommodate it.

redniwediSNov 9, 20162 votes

I'm all for this change, but it really isn't hitting his core problem. The villain passive needs to be removed so that he can have more reliability in his kit. Buffs like this will not fix this problem, and only cause more problems down the road.

I'm really tired of Riot overbuffing a champ only to nerf them in other areas to justify the previous buff. Give Garen back his old movement speed, remove his true damage, and buff up his early game defenses again.

Big LincolnNov 9, 20161 votes

villain mechanic probably should leave now that this buff is here; would be a nice exchange for base stats

redniwediSNov 9, 20161 votes

Something I just thought of is that Phage will be a worse item on Garen now, since he doesn't synergize as well with Black Cleaver anymore. I'll consider that another small nerf to his movement speed...

Big LincolnNov 9, 20161 votes

I have the same issue with it. It doesn't really feel like a power spike item anymore; I think one or two lethality items will be what he builds instead.

MimyNov 9, 20161 votes

Good thing we got 8% health Bork buffs are on PBE.

Least something keeps the monstrosity in check.

AhristocatsNov 9, 20161 votes

hahahaahahaha, this is where i remember that board isn't diamond/master

MimyNov 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-11-09T13:23:08.295+0000)

hahahaahahaha, this is where i remember that board isn't diamond/master

Oh you made it to diamond? I'm sorry, here have a cookie.

https://memecrunch.com/meme/50J83/sarcastic-cookie/image.png?w=400&c=1

Big LincolnNov 9, 20161 votes

not at all sure what to build on him as far as offense goes. item 3078 item 3053 isn't terrible for burst damage but i don't feel like you make use of enough of the stats to justify it. if only maw and sterak still stacked.

item 3812 perhaps, for in-fight sustaining?

Meep ManNov 9, 20161 votes

Imagine if Black Cleaver was calculated additive to where this plus Black Cleaver was 65% Armor Shred. That would be pretty... wooo....

Big LincolnNov 9, 20161 votes

in an ideal world :^)

PeanutButterFanNov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Toast Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-09T13:42:48.198+0000)

Imagine if Black Cleaver was calculated additive to where this plus Black Cleaver was 65% Armor Shred. That would be pretty... wooo....

And then LW

RequiemsfireNov 9, 20161 votes

Yeaah but lethality requires you to build squishy where as Garen is better tanky in most cases although he can be built for raw DPS.

Big LincolnNov 9, 20161 votes

well from what i understand lethality is more or less delayed armor pen; it's worse early and better late, so item 3142 could be a late game buy for him after he's tanky and the enemy team has levels

trying to figure out how to replace cleaver is really difficult.

DeathBurstNov 9, 20161 votes

Regarding builds: Cleaver is still huge for the 20% CDR and the Rage passive. DeathDance is good, it was usually my go to 2nd damage item, if I ever wanted a 2nd. Youmuu is nice for the CDR and MS (on active and out-of-combat passive), but I'm still skeptical about going for an Assassin build. That's just not Garen's job, and there are better suited champions if that's what you really want to do. I don't like Sterak in general, but it's probably just personal bias, it should be a decent pick on Garen, especially if you want to replace Cleaver by Trinity (you definitely want a Phage item).

Regarding the buff itself: it's a strange buff yes. It buffs him more against people he was already OK against, and less against people he was struggling against. But it still feels like a huge buff over-all. I hope he won't get a rebound nerf down the road in a couple of patches.

SasogwaNov 9, 20161 votes

Tbh the buff is actually insane. It's basically a free Black Cleaver for Garen. I'd probably still build BC cause eh, cool item. item 3142 item 3071 item 3143 item 3065 item 3009 + edge of night. Some lethality in runes. You basically deal true damage to everyone. 40% cdr, mobility, a bit of tankiness, high AD.

TW BunnyNov 9, 20161 votes

That's a joke right? Gonna ban this shit again. Why would they give armor shred to a tank? He's just gonna deal even more damage, and he already does too much damage given that he builds literally full tank. Also, he's maybe the easiest champ in the game. If they want to buff Garen, lower his damage to a tank's damage, then, maybe give him 1-2 more cc's.

Big LincolnNov 9, 20163 votes

he's supposed to do damage. he's not a tank; he's a fighter that gets tanker than most to compensate for low mobility and utility.

giving him CC makes no sense.

TW BunnyNov 9, 20161 votes

He's not supposed to outdamage the champs that goes full AD while tanking while being easier to play.

Critmaster GarenNov 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bröken Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2016-11-09T18:10:16.528+0000)

He's not supposed to outdamage the champs that goes full AD.

he is when they are the villain, and he gets to them in melee range.

the entire idea behind juggernauts is, that they have difficulties to get into melee range of an ad carry, but destroy him when they get there.

TW BunnyNov 9, 20161 votes

Well, Garen has a big ms boost on Q, on low cd..

Critmaster GarenNov 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bröken Blade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-09T18:50:09.958+0000)

Well, Garen has a big ms boost on Q, on low cd..

30% is not big. most ad carries have hard mobility tools (dashes, jumps, flashes), and those who dont have hard cc.

TW BunnyNov 9, 20161 votes

I still think it's too strong in lane against melee champs. For example, as a Riven main, I think I will perma ban him.

NovaDiskNov 11, 20161 votes

Learn his Q range, cooldowns, and animation, and Garen won't be able to touch you.

All of Riven's abilities outrange Garen, and additionally, once you get cooldowns he will never be able to catch you. If you master your range and animations you will win every single trade.

The only time you need to be afraid of Garen is during a gank, where he can flash-Q you. Even then, you should be able to control the lane, keep wards up, and outrun most junglers as they come in.

Play safe but assertive early game and abuse your range and mobility. Survive the mid-game, and eventually you will outscale him.

NovaDiskNov 11, 20161 votes

The MS boost is also his primary nuke, his escape, and his silence.

If he is forced to use his Q suboptimally, he will have a big window of vulnerability to exploit.

Also Movespeed =/= dash. Garen's movespeed boost gives him about 500 movespeed, assuming he has boots etc.

Riven's dash gives her about 1200 movespeed for a brief time, which cannot be interrupted by most stuns and roots.

NovaDiskNov 11, 20161 votes

He doesn't, unless he's insanely fed.

Also, Garen is harder to play at higher ELOs because of his immobility. That's why you don't see anyone playing him on stream.

Darksythe222Nov 11, 20161 votes

Maw of Malmortis for the damage lifeline and cdr?

SwiftKitten88Nov 11, 20161 votes

why is garen even being considered for buffs... he has 50% win rate.. nidalee has a 42% win rate.., the only people lower than her are Kalista and Azir

Big LincolnNov 11, 20162 votes

he has 47% and decreasing w/r in elos that matter

also unlike all 3 of these champions he doesn't become pick/ban whenever he's good

SwiftKitten88Nov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-11-11T23:50:57.604+0000)

he has 47% and decreasing w/r in elos that matter

also unlike all 3 of these champions he doesn't become pick/ban whenever he's good

ok.... i have had to deal with a 47% winrate on nid for about 5 months in my elo...

right now.. its a 42% in my elo... at 44% in plat...

garen has a 50% win rate in lower elo and it only goes down to 47% in higher elo. (aka he is fine for 90%) of the poplation

that is different than a champ donest even REACH 44% into plat.. (aka she is fine for 0.000% of the population...)

Big LincolnNov 12, 20161 votes

garen isn't one of the most polarizing champions in the game and they can be less hesitant to give him some strength back

he needs work anyway; his passive works against his interest as a juggernaut and his villain mechanic should be taken out in exchange for getting some stats back

SwiftKitten88Nov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1XMAafa6,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-12T00:15:37.565+0000)

garen isn't one of the most polarizing champions in the game and they can be less hesitant to give him some strength back

he needs work anyway; his passive works against his interest as a juggernaut and his villain mechanic should be taken out in exchange for getting some stats back

and now we are back to the original point of the op.... 7% armor shred that stacks 5 times... isnt a "minor" buff... its HUGE now i dont know the exact gold value of that, but it's about 1000 gold..... so yeah.... not minor...

Dominick DestineNov 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

why is garen even being considered for buffs... he has 50% win rate.. nidalee has a 42% win rate

Are you seriously implying that nidalee, one of the most overpowered champions in the game who was straight up pick/ban throughout all of worlds.... needs buffs more than Garen does?