They gave Zyra 4 times more plants, doubled the size of one of her hitboxes, and gave her 15 more movement speed. Exactly what "weakness" did they make more obvious?
FantasySniper31 votesBuffs:
Nerfs:
They only covered up her weaknesses that were her squishiness, low MS, and seed management - and reduced the strengths that were her plants and damage. Yet overall it was a net buff because her passive really was that terrible compared to the one she has now. BTW, I think the only reason they buffed her MS was because they removed boot enchants and Alacrity was practically rushed on her...
Elewd5 votesoh the old'en days of zyra of rushing alacrity swiftness boots and a ludens just to move at the same speed as another champ with just tier 1 boots.
Malicious Metal6 votesWelcome to the life of a Mordekaiser main.
EmollientNut01 votesYet Alacrity's removed and only a handful of mages got a movespeed buff. Damn this artificial selection.
[slayer-jinx-unamused]
Brand Inc1 votesMade a Mord topic about just this problem.
TheOvermind1 votesYou are over exaggerating.
EmollientNut02 votesNot entirely, since they are quite on point with the fact that 325 base on her did kind of seem like a cruel joke.
[slayer-jinx-catface]
EmollientNut02 votesIt was unarguably a net buff, based around how oppressive her zoning can tend to be now. Not to mention people like to bring up the plant timer as a drawback, but when were you ever not out of plant range within 10 seconds anyway?
I appreciate the comprehensive list! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Sightless6611 votes"Enhancing champ strengths and weaknesses"
A better way to put it is that they try and enhance unique strengths. They definitely did that with Zyra. They moved power from generic skillshot burst to unique plants. That is a great example of enhancing unique strengths.
They ended up giving her too much power, but that's just a temporary balance concern. Easily fixed. From a design standpoint, the rework absolutely succeeded. She'll be in a great spot once her numbers get trimmed down a bit.
cocacolalips1 votesI'm not quite on board with that opinion. They created an > AI < that beats bad and good players alike. It's borderline flawed in my book. It's flawed because 1) on one hand you have player A who has to play his champion to be good, and on the other hand you have player B who lets the AI plays his champion for him (fair much?) and it's flawed because 2) when the AI is good, it beats player A every time, and when it's bad, it loses to player A every time (there is no in between balance)
I just don't think AI game systems like Zyra plants have any place of any sort in a PvP game that resolves around the players ability and skill to perform well, it creates ethical issues and it creates balancing issues.
Sightless664 votesI disagree. Things like the plants are fine if they funtion in a completely predictable manner. They will do nothing if tbeir user does not position and utilize them properly, and the opponent always has a clear way to respond. It requires as much skill to play with or against as any average mechanic in the game.
I can understand that you personally dislike them, but i do not agree that they cause any issues in the game.
cocacolalips1 votesWtf does that even mean, a completely predictable manner? So if they introduce a cyborg to Olympic Games that always runs at the same speed but always faster than everyone else, it's okay because it's predictable? LOL.
Since the update, plants have been a big part of her kit, to the point that no matter what you do, you always have half a dozen plants all over the screen, and those plants always target champions all the time regardless of the circumstances, as Zyra, you can't miss and you can't missplay, you always do truck load of damage all the time at an even rate. The AI doesn't have the weaknesses a human player does have. And there is no counterplay either, you either avoid the plants, or you avoid the plants, that's it. Too bad she has an infinite amount of seeds.
Sightless661 votesWtf does that even mean, a completely predictable manner?
It means that the plants function like everything else in the game. Every ability has predictable results. They get thrown out, and you always know how to respond to them. It's like how when a skillshot is thrown out, I know how it is going to travel. When the plants are placed, I know what they are going to do. Either ability has to be used correctly or it will lose almost all of its value.
To make these even clearer, an important point is that the plants can't respond to what enemies do. They always follow the same pattern of behavior. It is up to the user and the enemy to exploit the rules that govern that behavior.
as Zyra, you can't miss and you can't missplay, you always do truck load of damage all the time at an even rate.
Bullshit. You absolutely can miss with Zyra. You can miss her important skillshots, and you can throw plants out at times when they will be very easy to kill or walk away from. Fucking up on her is easy as hell. Her damage is not perfectly consistent even if she does play correctly.
The AI doesn't have the weaknesses a human player does have.
Yes it does, because it is thrown out by a human player. It has the same weaknesses that any other player-utilized skill has. It can be used properly or improperly, and will benefit or suffer accordingly.
And there is no counterplay either, you either avoid the plants, or you avoid the plants, that's it.
First, avoiding plants is counterplay. If you get out of their range, they don't do anything to you. That's pretty robust counterplay by itself. Second, you absolutely do have more counterplay. She has standard burst mage weaknesses. Her kit is heavily skillshot-reliant. If you get past Zyra's E, you can blow her up regardless of how many plants she might theoretically make. Her immobility makes this form of counterplay even more meaningful. Additionally, the plants are vulnerable to being wiped out quickly (particularly by AoE damage), and you can control whether or not you fight in places where she has set up seeds with her passive. Seriously man, "no counterplay" just doesn't come even close to describing Zyra.
The only valid complaint I think you have is that Zyra is too strong right now. That's a numbers problem and it can easily be fixed. I see no design issues whatsoever. The plants are just another ability, like any other.
cocacolalips1 votesYou didn't read the post, I addressed 1 2 3 with the cyborg comparison and why AI will never be allowed to compete against human players in any form of competition. That's not ethical because it isn't fair. Zyra plants can't miss, that's a fact. That's how the AI is coded, champions in range > instant AA. The AI can't missclick, make bad judgement calls, or mistakes.
Your argument towards counterplay is to run away (all the time I presume, she has infinite amount of plants), good stuff mate. I'm sure you'll win many games that way. And if you played Zyra recently, you would have noticed that as long as you cast spells within your seeds vicinity (basically your screen), seeds turns into plants. You would have to cast spells off screen to missplay, is that even possible hah (hell you most likely have seeds off screen too haha)
Sightless661 votesI addressed 1 2 3 with the cyborg comparison
I didn't respond to the cyborg comparison because I was trying to be polite. I thought it was a silly analogy and wasn't meant to be a serious part of your argument. You're taking something which is by design strictly better (the robot), and comparing it to something which has the same functionality as everything else in the game.
So, no, I don't think you've responded to those points. I don't think you responded to my point about how plants have the same functionality as other mechanics because it functions by predictable rules that have to be used well and played against well just like every other skill in the game, and I don't think you responded to my point about how Zyra can easily fuck up her mechanics or how the enemy can avoid them and how that adds counterplay to the kit. You haven't addressed that second point even slightly. You've avoided responding to it, and there is no way your analogy could be construed as even coming close to responding to Zyra's nature as a skillshot champion. I guarantee you that trying to defend the analogy isn't going to make it work any better. Just address what I wrote directly.
That's not ethical because it isn't fair.
It's as fair as any other mechanic with a set of predictable, defined rules is (aka, all of them).
Zyra plants can't miss, that's a fact.
First, this is untrue. The targeting can be broken by moving out of the firing reticle. Plants can't move, as I think you have noticed. Second, there are plenty of other things in this game which do targeted damage. Autoattacks. Stuns. Nukes. Etc. This alone is not enough to damn a mechanic.
More importantly, you're missing a key factor here. Zyra can miss. Her entire kit outside of the plants is skillshot based, and if you don't use those skillshots well, she will fail. End of story. Counterplay is a kit-wide phonemonon. You can't point to one instance of targeted damage and claim no counterplay on the kit as a whole. That doesn't work.
You also seem to making a claim that plants always get the highest possible value, which I also disagree with, because the positioning of the plants and the enemy champion can lead to huge variance in how effective the plants actually are.
make bad judgement calls
They can't make any judgment calls, good or bad. They can't choose to target the enemy that Zyra wants to burst, unless they are placed next to that enemy and that enemy doesn't leave range.
The only "judgment" involved is Zyra's judgment in when and where to throw them, and the enemy's judgment in how to initially position against them and how to respond when they are thrown. There is no artificial intelligence making decisions here. It is a set of very basic and very easily manipulated rules.
Your argument towards counterplay is to run away
"Second, you absolutely do have more counterplay."
It's written right there that I think there is more counterplay. Come on dude.
One thing I said, out of multiple options, is to get out of range. That can include going towards her in addition to away. Additionally, I think she has all the standard counterplay of immobile skillshot mages. You just dodge her E, and then kill her despite the plants. That's still a very strong form of counterplay.
And if you played Zyra recently, you would have noticed that as long as you cast spells within your seeds vicinity (basically your screen), seeds turns into plants.
That's assuming we're fighting in an area Zyra has been standing in for more than 20 seconds. Picking her off in-transit and forcing her to move around the map with smaller skirmishes is a very highly recommended form of counterplay. She has a very hard time fighting back against that.
If you throw skills out poorly you'll get a plant or two. However, if you play poorly or your opponent positions well, then your plants will be in a poor position and you'll get fewer. You'll get a little value of them, but their impact will be majorly reduced. That's pretty important for playing against her and playing as her. I suggest that you keep it in mind.
I'm sure you'll win many games that way.
Yeah, I do. When you use a champion's weaknesses against them, you tend to win. I don't think that should be surprising.
I'm going to just repeat my earlier statement: I think the only problem with Zyra is that she's numerically overpowered. Nerf her, and she'll be fine. I see no problems with the plants, just like I see no problems with Heimer turrets, Malz minions, or any other pet mechanics or ground-targeted persistent threats.
EmollientNut01 votesThey definitely did that, but almost any time you can find a Riot quote on champion reworks they almost always mention making weaknesses more obvious too. And they absolutely didn't do that.
Sightless662 votesThey reduced plant health and made it easuer to step on plants. Aside from that, she had and still has clearly defined weaknesses. They are all still intact. There isn't much that could be done to enhance them. It wasn't necessary.
Not every rework needs the same treatment. If a champion already has very well defined strengths or weaknesses, then those aren't going to be a design goal.
ThePartyLeader8 votesImagine how big tryndameres right arm will be after he gets reworked.
Jungle Lux God11 votes
Lord Phazanor 6 votesActually, it's even worse: They said the problem with Zyra was that she had too much burst and her plants didn't do enough damage, so the whole plantmancer thing was useless, since just landing skills was enough. Solution: now she deals more burst damage, but her plants ALSO do really good damage... As a Zyra player, I'm happy. But it's objectively a fail.
Mig895 votesI main nzyra as well and haven't noticed and burst buff. You can land your spells all day but they do shit for damage. The enemy has to stand and take damage from the plants to receive any significant amount. The plants do amazing damage if theyre not dealt with. My favorite scenario is when the enemy team comes running into your team after your passive has flooded an area. The enemy ignores your seeds and you just unload+ult and its an easy team fight. She gets countered so hard if they just remember to step on the seeds. When facing zyra, don't let her spawn multiple seeds before wanting the clear them because she will activate at least one along with the two from her w and you will get chunked down.
Narasimha8 votesSolution: now she deals more burst damage,
This is flat out false. Her burst damage is MUCH lower. All of the damage is on her plants now.
chipndip15 votesActually, it's even worse: They said the problem with Zyra was that she had too much burst and her plants didn't do enough damage, so the whole plantmancer thing was useless, since just landing skills was enough. Solution: now she deals more burst damage, but her plants ALSO do really good damage... As a Zyra player, I'm happy. But it's objectively a fail.
She does less without the plants to be fair.
Problem is that the plants do SOOOOO DAMN MUUUUUUCH.
Lord Phazanor 2 votesShe does less without the plants to be fair.
Problem is that the plants do SOOOOO DAMN MUUUUUUCH.
I didn't write it clearly: now that her plants deal more damage, her burst is also higher. Because of the initial plant damage. Better? ^^
EMeta1 votesNo... the damage she can do in 3 seconds is substantially lower than pre-rework. It's just not there. In 6.8, she had a much easier time catching someone and 100-0 before her root ended. It was much easier for her to kill someone in particular inside of a teamfight. Now it takes 5 seconds of the enemy sticking around to do that much damage. Further, if you catch a bunch of people, while your total damage is pretty high, it's also rather distributed, which in many cases is less useful.
She's a tad op at the moment, probably getting some nerfs in 6.13.
Lord Phazanor 1 votesNo... the damage she can do in 3 seconds is substantially lower than pre-rework. It's just not there. In 6.8, she had a much easier time catching someone and 100-0 before her root ended. It was much easier for her to kill someone in particular inside of a teamfight. Now it takes 5 seconds of the enemy sticking around to do that much damage. Further, if you catch a bunch of people, while your total damage is pretty high, it's also rather distributed, which in many cases is less useful.
She's a tad op at the moment, probably getting some nerfs in 6.13.
I don't think we play her the same way then...
L Psy Kongroo5 votesHer plants used to last 10 seconds. Now they last 5.
EmollientNut01 votesBut having 2-3 times the amount transformed is quite a bit more useful, along with the oppressive zoning control it has. You had already walked way out of plant range by 10 seconds before anyway.
Only Play Darius4 votesBecause they took so much power from her by removing her death passive.
/s
Faith Breaker5 votesA good player doesn't die often. A champion that has an aspect of their kit that REQUIRES THEM TO BE DEAD is not healthy. Zyra's passive was removed because it rewarded the player for not playing safely. Who cares if you die? You get to use your passive! Meanwhile an actually skilled Zyra player rarely dies, thus effectively rarely using their passive.
If Kog Maw and Sion do well in their games, ideally they'd never get to use their passives.
Odinakos2 votesSion's passive is still useful even when not dying because it creates the threat that if he dies he has to be dealt with again. Thats something for a massive frontliner. Kogs passive only deters assasins a bit. And still they would be happy to trade themselves for a fed Kog (1 for 1 ofc). So its borderline useless, even when dying its pretty weak.
Faith Breaker1 votesI like Sion's passive. In games where I die as Sion I have about a 45% chance of picking up a kill I couldn't because I had died I like his passive. But I don't think its healthy
GaleWinUnleashed2 votesKog'Maw should ideally never die. Karthus and Sion, on the other hand, often WANT to be dead. In Sion's case it means that the enemy focused a lot of their damage on him, which is definitely a good thing for the rest of his team. And Karthus turns the entire area around him into a death zone, while also getting free time to channel his ult if he hasn't used it yet.
Zyra's old passive definitely didn't fit her zone mage playstyle at all. She wanted to stay back and avoid damage, so if she died it meant she failed.
EmollientNut01 votesI think they overestimated the power budget on that passive a little bit haha.
Dataless4 votesHer base damage on Q and E (possibly R but not 100% sure) got lowered to compensate for the extra plants, but that's a moot point. Zyra is best when she gets time to set up in an area, and worst when she can't do that and has to rely on the two seeds from her W. Despite being an insanely high damage champion (especially support Zyra) she is still pretty damn squish.
Basically you have to know how to play very far back and plan ahead, and if you get caught you die.
BloodyTompon3 votesThese ones were about increasing distinctiveness. For what it's worth I think she needs a nerf.
Faith Breaker3 votesRiot is full of shit and you can't believe anything that comes out of any of their greasey lil mouths. They'll shit on the hood of your car, pull up their pants and smile to you and ask how your day is, without even caring.
billxx4 votesSomeone got banned for toxicity
Faith Breaker2 votesOh yeah those new low level accounts running around ruining games for other people? I'm about 8 of those accounts =D
Verdade3 votesOh no, squishy immobile mage has decent damage and range! THAT'S OP, GUT HER, ONLY ZED IS ALLOWED TO HAVE THAT
Seriously, her direct damage was gutted, she's more plant-oriented. Just buy swifties, some MR and wreck her face
GaleWinUnleashed3 votesShe's still countered heavily by death. Can't forget that.
Partholonian2 votesEspecially now that she's 100% useless while dead, up from 99%.
LankPants2 votesZyra's old weaknesses were completely overwhelming, so much so that there was never a reason to pick her into competent enemies. Had Riot have made her main weakness in super low base HP worse the impacts on Zyra mid would have been devastating while Zyra support wouldn't have really cared.
I don't really think the rework was very good, but the thing you have to remember about Zyra is that all of her weaknesses impact her more mid lane than support. Any changes to increase these weaknesses would basically gut mid lane Zyra.
My solution to this would be to shift Zyra's damage more to ratios and late game. As a support she falls more in-line with Janna in that her damage wouldn't be top of the class and she's more about her CC while mid Zyra has an actual reason to be played.
Alüe2 votesshe appears to be very overbearing in lane, which is a major improvement off the skill she required last time. However it would be appreciative if they toned down her zone control.
Erockandroll2 votesshe appears to be very overbearing in lane, which is a major improvement off the skill she required last time. However it would be appreciative if they toned down her zone control.
I don't see that happening, as they will likely try to support her duality as a mage and support.
manbearswine2 votesShe was too weak before, seems to be a bit on the strong side atm.
therealdragon2 votesDon't worry. Zyra was in LCS. They don't like mages in LCS. You can expect nerfs in the coming patches :).
Solitair2 votesWell, don't just freaking run headlong into a garden of max seeds while zyra is near enough to turn them into a forest of ultified death.
Pika Fox2 votesThey moved the majority of her damage to her plants.
TheOvermind2 votesI find her range stupidly oppressive. If she wants to create a garden on my feet she should have to step way closer and take actual risks. Right now she does so by standing right next to her carry behind the safety of her minions. All they need to do is tone down her range and she'll be fine
