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@Riot - I'm not sure these changes to Janna and Ardent Censor make sense...

Oleandervine··16 votes·2,742 views

So there are changes to Janna on the PBE, I'm sure you've all heard of it already. It's ... odd... as to why they're applying her MS towards her basic attack damage. She's a support, so I'm not quite sure I understand the relevance of making her basic attacks hit harder, and this new addition to her passive is not only 3/4th irrelevant to her kit, but it also is another massive head-scratcher.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k9SGdqxZDMY/WcAkUHomrbI/AAAAAAAAu7Y/VgaXoSqtBSIzDsmabW7vwvSCbwplu7mNQCLcBGAs/s1600/jannapassive.jpg

Her single target spells (meaning Zephyr, her ONLY single target spell) will deal bonus damage based on her MS. This is completely pointless. I don't understand why there is a push to make her more of a damage dealing support. She's an enchanter, and her kit is almost 100% utility. Pushing her towards dealing damage IS NOT the direction she needs to go "to be interactive." It's bizarre.

Furthermore, there was this new change to the already changed Ardent Censer: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YH7I8XqDi5c/WcAiHMSCMpI/AAAAAAAAu60/F4xXlY66XOQeRq-EYgsgJvQ3MOkU9gVpwCLcBGAs/s1600/ardent.jpg

It's now going to apply itself to yourself when you heal or shield. Again, as an Enchanter, who will be applying heals and shields to your allies, your kit will almost be 100% utility, and your offense is negligible. This is another bizarre change, as it doesn't actually mesh or flow with the concept of an enchanter support. In fact, I cannot think of a single support who will benefit from this meaningfully.

Riot, as these changes to Janna and Ardent show - you're making some extremely odd directional choices when it comes to Enchanters, choices that are not cohesive to the class. I think this is the wrong direction to take for both Janna and Ardent because you're adding essentially useless stats to them that why will never utilize to any extent, as their intended role doesn't require them or ask them to be aggressive auto-attackers. Please reconsider this direction, and take another approach.

44 Comments

Poop Jelly13 votes

I welcome it. I've always played janna in the assertive route and making her gameplay more aggressive is fine by me. Scaling with Movement speed as damage to me is actually quite refreshing. Other supports get AP as bonus utility stats, Janna probably the first one to get speed as an additional scaling stat (which makes sense considering she's a wind spirit).

Now I see that when they say making Janna more interactive rather than being a shield defensive support, many think she gets shift power of her kit into something other than true interaction with enemies (aka auto attack), but Idk i still really like the idea. Now she's actually going to do damage and whether it's going to be effective or not, she's not a staying behind support who can't fight/trade for herself anymore.

Ardent Censor change is still a bit wonky we will have to look out if it's actually going to ship or if it's going to change.

Oleandervine4 votes

I get that they wanted to make her more interactive, but I don't see this as the way to do it, as it simply doesn't flow with her kit.

I would have personally allowed her spell hits on enemies to give her charges for her shield to increase it's strength (think Taric Q), as I feel that's a clean, simple way to stop her from spamming her shield while also encouraging her to be aggressive on enemies. I feel like there are quite a few directions they could have run with her kit to allow her to be more engaging in the lane without forcing her to be an awkward auto-attacker.

Poop Jelly5 votes

Personally, I just really like that they're giving Janna some offensive power. I play a variety of supports and Janna is the only support I feel absolutely is a lame/weak girl if she's alone in a 1v1 situation. Of course every support's role is to.. well.. support the carry roles in the game, but every other supports, enchancers included, have some form of power to fight back with mentionable damage (if they invest in it), but Janna is just pure support. This is why I really welcome the change because she can finally be fighting back for herself, instead of having the reputation of being 100% ADC dependant.

Though, I still respect your opinion because not everyone play/interpret a champion the same as others. Let's see if the changes stick and how they lay out in the game once they are official.

Nymzo1 votes

If they want Janna to be more agressive, she would require a VGU that should give her more offensive powers into her spells not autos.

Chembaron Yamada6 votes

I think that I will actually like that version of Ardent Censer on Bard.

It gives alot of stuff I would like. AP to make my meeps hurting more? Check. Movement speed for even faster roaming? Check. Healing power for my shrines? Check. AS and on-hit damage, to make my meeped AAs even better? Check.

[sg-syndra]

chipndip12 votes

You have that right now. Why wouldn't you build it right now?

Chembaron Yamada3 votes

I do. Just saying that the statement that no enchanter is going to purchase it is wrong in my opinion.

I bought it on Bard 'til now and will continue to do so. Sure, it doesn't heal anymore. But I get a stronger attackspeed steroid on it and additional movementspeed.

Seems I phrased it a bit wrongly here. But that changed Ardent Censer is not as bad as people are making it up to be.

Tenth Leper2 votes

But now bard gets the buff too. Now it is even a good item for greedy on-hit bards.

Fairyfleur1 votes

It'll also be okay on Sona, but only for the damage on-hit.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

am i wrong or is this actually a censer buff?

current version grans 25 heal flat, and 20% attack speed.

ModWuks3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1QAZJFH8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-18T20:42:19.109+0000)

am i wrong or is this actually a censer buff?

current version grans 25 heal flat, and 20% attack speed.

There's no longer a drain/heal effect on PBE Ardent Censer.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

There's no longer a drain/heal effect on PBE Ardent Censer.

thank goodness. though that bullshit wont end any time soon.

next season theyre going to have a keystone for tanks that grants allies an on-hit heal against movement impaired enemies (including slows), and it lasts 4 seconds per cc.

so pretty much you have this item that buffs adc attack speed, adc are going to run beserk next season to break attack speed cap, and then you have a keystone rune that gives them up to 3 times the on hit heal censer gives them now.

if you combine these effects, the current censer will look mild against whats about to come.

Steelflame1 votes

No... Stoneborn Pact is gone. Its been replaced with a standard rune that is just a weaker version of the heal on current Stoneborn in all ways (Current Stoneborn has 40% of the heal as on-hit, the remaining 60% is over 2 seconds), except that the person who actually picked the rune can use it themselves to heal (at 1/3rd value).

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

No... Stoneborn Pact is gone. Its been replaced with a standard rune that is just a weaker version of the heal on current Stoneborn in all ways (Current Stoneborn has 40% of the heal as on-hit, the remaining 60% is over 2 seconds), except that the person who actually picked the rune can use it themselves to heal (at 1/3rd value).

the current stoneborn heals 5 + 2.5 % of the tanks max health over 2 seconds. the important point here is that its a regeneration effect that is simply refreshed with subsequent attacks, which limits the health you can get off it over 2 seconds by the given value.

font of life will heal 5 + 1% of the tanks maximum health on every single auto attack against a marked target. this means the mastery becomes really strong with attack speed on the champions benefitting off it, being able to proc its full heal multiple times in that 2 second window.

a champion with 2 attack speed (two attacks per second) can proc it 4 times for 20 + 4% max health over the same 2 second window where bond of stone would have healed just those 5 + 2.5% over the duration.

this is not even counting item interactions with item 3085 against multiple marked targets when the adc hits 3 enemies on a gauntlet slow field, or when multiple enemies have been slowed by a nautilus w or similar abilities.

nor is it accounting for the fact that adc get a keystone next season that gives them 60% attack speed boost that lets them break attack speed cap for 10 seconds. you could see something like 3 attacks per second happening no problem.

not only does this mean, that this mastery will give adc an on hit heal stonger than ardent censer, but exactly the fact that it is not a keystone rune will make it it easier to pick it up and it will be a lot more common than now, because youre not committing your biggest rune slot to it.

stoneborn pact is not only weaker, but more rarely picked because it competes with other keystones as powerful choices.

font of life can just get picked up on the side in your secondary path.

Steelflame1 votes

Ehh... dude. I covered that.

(Current Stoneborn has 40% of the heal as on-hit, the remaining 60% is over 2 seconds).<

You know what 40% of 2.5% max hp is? 1% max hp. The only difference is it will heal a flat 2 HP instead of a flat 5, BUT in all situations the current stoneborn would be stronger anyways, because the regen would tick for a minimum of 3 HP before even a max AS carry could make up the difference in proc rate. Even assuming the tank had only 500 hp (never happens due to base stats alone putting most tanks at a starting 700 or so), and that it was a max AS carry trying to utilize it at level 1.

Therefor, current Stoneborn is stronger than new Font of Life in every way other than the self-heal mechanic (which, at it's low value, takes a minimum of ~16 attacks before it would heal as much as the bonus +5% hp gives to said champion. Not likely to be put into much effect, also not counting the fact that the heal is weaker for allies compared to current Stoneborn, and that the extra HP granted by Stoneborn also counts for HP ratios innate to most champs who'd normally consider it's kits). In combat situations, it takes a grand total of 16 seconds for that to impact the tank. At an absolute minimum, assuming they can even keep the proc enabled that long in a fight.

Which is fair, because current Stoneborn is a keystone, and the new one is merely a standard rune (Sure, only 1 of the 5 you can possibly slot in that slot type, but still).

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Ehh... dude. I covered that.

(Current Stoneborn has 40% of the heal as on-hit, the remaining 60% is over 2 seconds).

You know what 40% of 2.5% max hp is? 1% max hp. The only difference is it will heal a flat 2 HP instead of a flat 5, BUT in all situations the current stoneborn would be stronger anyways, because the regen would tick for a minimum of 3 HP before even a max AS carry could make up the difference in proc rate.

if thats true, then thats already bullshit.

i dont know why riot has such a boner for auto attackers to give them this advantage over anyone else.

CrimsonLotus33 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1QAZJFH8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-18T20:42:19.109+0000)

am i wrong or is this actually a censer buff?

current version grans 25 heal flat, and 20% attack speed.

cencer buff tbh they just got rid of the pseudo-life steal on it

RankOneUganda1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1QAZJFH8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-18T20:42:19.109+0000)

am i wrong or is this actually a censer buff?

current version grans 25 heal flat, and 20% attack speed.

there is no heal. its health drain. so heal for 25 and do 25 damage. this one is only damage and no heal

its a nerf.

Mighty Mortein1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1QAZJFH8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-18T20:42:19.109+0000)

am i wrong or is this actually a censer buff?

current version grans 25 heal flat, and 20% attack speed.

It's a buff. Sure, it doesn't have the drain but that 20+ AD PLUS a Janna shield and all you have to do is buy lifesteal a little earlier. I was honestly fine with the nerfs that were proposed. It wouldn't have gutted the item. If it became unpopular again then riot would just buff it the next patch. But we won't get to see how those nerfs would've affected the item. No, it just gets buffed up again without any performance data.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

...They're making the AS buff apply to yourself?

The uh...The support Kayle is real.

0 Hogapu4 votes

That is an actual great buff for Taric though

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Top lane Soraka will enjoy that extra 20-40 damage. A shame the special casing will probably carry over.

rG Thundrag3 votes

The ardent change makes ardent rushing a very strong all in tool for aoe heals/shieldRakanSona Karma Taric since you can apply it to both laners giving them a ton of bonus damage. I thought they wanted to make ardent supports not dominate the meta but these changes aren't helping.

Mawootad1 votes

The power in ardent is only partially the actual combat strength you got from it, as a rush item the bigger portion is the ludicrous sustain you got from it. It turns your shitty 70 hp heals into 300 hp heals which is completely fucking insane. It means that you can now start making horrendous trades and if you don't straight up die you can heal up to full after a single wave with a tiny amount of mana spent. It's completely insane and while the 40% teamwide as bonus might be better in the late game the drop in lane sustain will make it probably not worth rushing over sightstone as you won't get ground out by the enemy lane if they have one and you don't.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Alright, mate. I've explained this a few times already on the boards but apparently everyone wants to start a new thread instead of reading the other ones. So read this carefully:

This is what's known as a trap.

Not https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/fategrandorder/images/3/3c/Astolfo1.png/revision/latest?cb=20160309054320 this kind of trap, but a trap nonetheless.

See, Janna is what we call "brain dead easy".

So what you have to do is make it so people who are bad at Janna can fuck up, without giving her real sizable power.

You are correct. Janna isn't going to get much stronger than she is now with this. That's good. She needs to be fucking nerfed. Why is everyone forgetting that this whole set of changes should end up being a net nerf?

More importantly, what the auto damage passive and increased range is going to do is bait idiots into trying to get into range to auto attack with her in lane. And then she gets fucking mauled by Blitz, Leona, Thresh and Alistar. They're going to look at her abilities and see "Oh, I have bonus damage on my autos. Guess I better walk up and auto". Boom. Dead. Easy.

That is the point. The point is to sound good while not giving anything so that bad Janna players will die more frequently. If her play rate goes up, her win rate should go down, just like every other champion. Right now Janna's entire kit just screams "sit back and do nothing". These changes will basically make expert Janna players much more careful with their early game shields while getting bad Janna players killed for trying to harass.

Edit: You asked about the single-target damage buff as well. That's another trap. "Hey, I get bonus damage for casting my W, which is pretty short range...oh wait, I just lost my passive move speed OH GOD NOT THE FACE!" You have been slain.

KoKoboto2 votes

Honestly although these changes make no sense they're for the most part buffs to Janna excluding the fact that she no longer has ridiculous amounts of movement speed.

Oleandervine4 votes

By default they are buffs to Janna - but to what end? These buffs aren't cohesive with her kit's strengths. They're throwaway buffs, in my opinion.

KoKoboto1 votes

Whenever she auto attacks she does more now and she's able to auto attack easier because of more attack range. These buffs allow her to play more aggressive, her E has a longer CD early but whatever she maxes it first anyways and you trade off with being able to retaliate with stronger auto attacks.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Whenever she auto attacks she does more now

She only does more when you max W. Because they reduced her AA damage, she will actually deal less damage by the time you put your second point into it.

KoKoboto1 votes

The AD reduce doesn't match the magic damage on auto gained from her passive. Magic damage also tends to deal more damage because armor scales less per level than magic resist.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Given that they reverted her base MS nerf, she still has ridiculous MS - 15%, down from 17% at max W - but she'll lose only 10% instead of 17% when she casts W.

SanKakU2 votes

The problem here is players have been popping off with their opinion that Janna's current kit and Ardent are both non-interactive. If you guys were simply satisfied with how these things worked, Riot wouldn't be planning changes to them.

I decided to play a little Dota 2 the other day although I hadn't played it for months, and I was kind of shocked at the games I played how the less interactive I behaved how much easier it was for me to win. Dota 2 has really become less and less interactive over the years, while LoL is going in the opposite direction. I don't even enjoy Dota 2 at all anymore.

I'm one of those people that almost always bought item 3222 before thinking about item 3504 or item 3107 next. With this new change to Ardent, I'm likely to pick it up more often as a first healing power item, although it remains to be seen how much more likely. I've always been one to get on the front line and often ask my support to do likewise if the roles are switched. The Ardent change will make the health loss for new Janna a lot more manageable.

ModWuks1 votes

I think there may be some more single target spell utilization with the new rune system. We'll see!

Oleandervine2 votes

How can there be more spells? Janna only has 1 spell that is a single target for enemies. Her tornado is considered AOE, and her shield and ult are not offensive.

ModWuks1 votes

{quoted}

How can there be more spells? Janna only has 1 spell that is a single target for enemies. Her tornado is considered AOE, and her shield and ult are not offensive.

That's a good question. We'll have more damaging abilities, spells, and other passives such as:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/hFIemE4p-runes-corner-hunt-of-the-blood-moon-sneak-peek

And to understand what qualifies as spell damage, Stashu also discusses it here:

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/LkQeAFM4-what-is-the-difference-between-spell-damage-and-ability-damage

Oleandervine1 votes

Note, that the trait says specifically "spells," and not "spell damage," which are completely different things. A spell is one of Q, W, E, R abilites, as opposed to an attack, which is generated by auto-attacking. Janna will deal extra damage on her single target spells, which is only her W.

Tenth Leper1 votes

Hextech item actives count as spells and proc related effects. Although so far as I know only gunblade is single target.

SuperCosmicHobo1 votes

Ghost+Youmuu's+Righteous Glory+Talisman of Ascension+Boots of Mobility+Luden's+Lich Bane. I'd laugh at the damage output but I don't know how much that would do probably not much.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

In fact, I cannot think of a single support who will benefit from this meaningfully.

Sona Rakan (my first and third favourite champs)

Bârd1 votes

Taric is a big one.

Kloqdq1 votes

I get they want janna to be more aggressive and have more interesting gameplay but doing it like this? Uhhh not sure I would agree to that but clearly Riot knows something I don't.

Swarovsko1 votes

I would welcome it if these changes actually made sense. Pushing Janna towards autoattacking while also increasing her shield cooldown to 18/16/14/12/10 seconds barely makes sense. She's never gonna trade simply because her shield will always be used to save her ADC from poke, and that's the reason people pick Janna and enchanters in general. These changes are just Soraka over and over again, where they tried to make Soraka interactive by giving her W an 8 second cooldown lmao. Between current Ardent and Janna changes + Brand getting mana back from killing minions with W (when he doesn't because he kills minions by using his W and then E) I think the balance team is clueless.

Giggling Granny1 votes

I LIKE the fact that you get the passives from ardents now...!!

My Lee sin with Max W (which got buffed) with 12/0/18 or 0/18/12 masteries normal Runes and item 1409 item 3504 item 3107 item 3047 item 3190 item 3109 oritem 3401 as items would be even better!!! i have play over 100 games like that and i win the 70% of them!! its just work too good

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