Lee Sin falls off late game and is useless in high elo

Fed by Snu Snu·May 11, 2017·57 votes·7,786 views

Which is why TSM won 40 minutes into the game with Lee Sin insta-winning the fight with his R...twice.

Of course, there's always the argument that TSM is not high elo to be had.

85 Comments

Mira Arya EntheMay 11, 201727 votes

He does fall off late that is a statistical fact. Also one pro game says zero about how a champion functions unless you think tanks also are overpowered across the board because they do amazing in lcs.

As for your strawman. Nobody said he was bad in high elo, they said he was bad in low elo.

Lee is getting more nerfs pick something else to farm upvotes with.

PennsMay 11, 201712 votes

I mean when u fall off from "broken champ that can do anything he wants, clear fast and healthy, gank 24/7, counter jungle,... because basically no jungler can catch or duel him" to "mobile, high damage tank with good pick potential"... yeah xd

Mira Arya EntheMay 11, 201711 votes

I never said he fell off hard enough. But it is still a lie to say he doesn't and a false claim that people say he is bad in high tier play. He is still getting nerfed. And the OP isn't saying any circlejerk QQing that hasn't been said. It makes no arguments and brings nothing new to the table.

It is just farming upvotes by saying "Lee OP guys upvote me!"

chipndip1May 11, 20173 votes

He's not even that tanky honestly...

CowseedMay 11, 20171 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

AzteryzMay 12, 20171 votes

so much this^^

people who aren't up to date with whats happening on the pbe shouldn't be bitchhing about a champion

because they might (in this case does) have nerfs slated for him on the pbe which is coming to live early next week

NiyumiMay 11, 201711 votes

People will make up all kinds of lies to defend their freelo.

Riot knows that Lee is beyond broken, but they also openly admitted they won't nerf him 'cause he makes money. So, you're just wasting time telling people about it.

Sahn UzalMay 11, 201716 votes

They are nerfing him tho.

Hexs FortuneMay 11, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1OxZ3YKz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-05-11T10:20:52.894+0000)

They are nerfing him tho.

5 move speed reduced. Massive

SEKAIMay 11, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1OxZ3YKz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-11T10:25:23.538+0000)

5 move speed reduced. Massive

The lvl 6 CD nerf was quite a big hit. MS nerf is k, it's alright, not to much and not too less (though could be more given his mobility but it can settle for that now).

At least it is a straight nerf, which is good, he needs that.

Yosuke ApperuMay 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The lvl 6 CD nerf was quite a big hit. MS nerf is k, it's alright, not to much and not too less (though could be more given his mobility but it can settle for that now).

At least it is a straight nerf, which is good, he needs that.

His damage is also really dumb. What they should do is penalize him for missing his q.

9Wly9oMl02May 11, 20177 votes

You know, you really hurt your argument when you leave out the fact that they're nerfing his R. So no, he is not only getting a 5 MS nerf (as of now).

Stop being Fox News.

NiyumiMay 11, 20176 votes

Oh wow, 5 MS and 20s off his ult at rank 1. You know how much that's goinna hurt his 4,000 damage combo? Oh, huh, none.

It's almost like that time that Vayne was literally pick or fucking ban, and Riot responded by taking 5 AD off of her. AKA, a placebo nerf.

They didn't touch his damage on his Q at all, they didn't touch the CD on his Q or W at all, and they didn't touch his bullshit sustain / shielding at all. Oh but trust me, Lee is fair now -- he has 345 base MS now after all.

SEKAIMay 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Oh wow, 5 MS and 20s off his ult at rank 1. You know how much that's goinna hurt his 4,000 damage combo? Oh, huh, none.

It's almost like that time that Vayne was literally pick or fucking ban, and Riot responded by taking 5 AD off of her. AKA, a placebo nerf.

They didn't touch his damage on his Q at all, they didn't touch the CD on his Q or W at all, and they didn't touch his bullshit sustain / shielding at all. Oh but trust me, Lee is fair now -- he has 345 base MS now after all.

The ulti nerf is actually quite a big one as far as I could tell. As that means between lvl 6 and lvl 11, he would be stuck with less ganks, less 1 shots and less escapes. That's really quite big, especially for him.

It's best to see how that plays out than saying it's a placebo, because that certainly does much more than the infamous "- 3 AD".

NiyumiMay 11, 20172 votes

Twenty. Seconds.

If it was like 50s, sure, I could see it having some impact. But 20s, especially when he has 45% CDR like 10 minutes in, is absolutely nothing.

SEKAIMay 11, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Twenty. Seconds.

If it was like 50s, sure, I could see it having some impact. But 20s, especially when he has 45% CDR like 10 minutes in, is absolutely nothing.

His ulti at lvl 6 has a 90 sec cd, a 20 sec on top of it makes it 110, it's not like it's still too short or anything. If you have to assume that Lee caps CDR at 10 min for some reason and somehow making that cd obsolete, then you can also apply the same argument to everybody because that cd is close to the standard ulti cd now.

Not to mention, that's still a 22% increase in ulti base countdown, mind you, that's indeed very significant.

Once more, let's wait and see.

Sahn UzalMay 11, 201719 votes

I think you're just kinda salty, my dude.

Don't get me wrong, I bloody hate Lee Sin. There's very little I can do against his early pressure as a Gangplank player.

But pretending these changes won't hurt him is straight up silly.

NiyumiMay 11, 20175 votes

Pretending they're going to have any major impact is just asinine.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 11, 20175 votes

Well seeing as he will have to land a Q to catch you instead of being guaranteed to just outrun you, I think there will be impact.

Also, 20 seconds is a long time in league.

Fed by Snu SnuMay 11, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Well seeing as he will have to land a Q to catch you instead of being guaranteed to just outrun you, I think there will be impact.

Also, 20 seconds is a long time in league.

Fun fact: The majority of champions don't have 350 base MS.

He will still be guaranteed to outrun you.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 11, 20173 votes

Eh, the gap close will still be slower so you have more time to escape.

Besides, it won't matter too much to me becuase I play Azir.

Everyone except maybe Morde outruns me.

Sir FuzziMay 11, 20171 votes

Swain.

Isn't he the slowest?

PaquayMay 11, 20171 votes

I thought it was Anivia? Maybe they are on par.

DivewingMay 11, 20171 votes

FeelsSlowMan

But he, extended dash blockable by champions every 15 seconds

Chembaron YamadaMay 11, 20171 votes

Azir is highly mobile with his expandable dash and has strong self-peel with his ult, though. He is actually pretty safe to play.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 12, 20171 votes

It is not expendable my friend. I know it may seem that way, but trust me, get in a game with a Vi or some other hard diver, and you'll wish that dash came up sooner.

Chembaron YamadaMay 12, 20171 votes

By expandable I meant that you are able to relocate the soldier you are dashing to, giving you bigger range that way. It is a pretty long ranged dash if used correctly...

TyrekGoldenspearMay 12, 20171 votes

Ahh. You said expandable, not expendable. Mb.

Yes you can extend the range of your dash with sufficient ping.

PaquayMay 11, 20179 votes

I don't know, I've always felt like 20 seconds is about the same in game as out. It's generally more than 19 seconds and less than 21 seconds.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Fondling GemsMay 11, 20172 votes

I agree, I also find 20 seconds to fall into that range.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 11, 20173 votes

Hmm. You got me there.

+1 for flawless logic.

JVP15May 12, 20172 votes

I'm not sure about you, but whenever I play League of Legends, I am playing while circling a supermassive black whole at speeds approaching the speed of light. 20 seconds to you is a whole lot more to me.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 11, 20172 votes

Have you noticed that Vayne has fallen off the FotM list since those days?

Almost as if the meta shifted to a place where she isn't OP anymore and harsher nerfs are no longer needed.

If she is weak in this meta, and she was given a harsher nerf, then we would end up with a low winrate Champ that is fairlu popular and would then be on the radar for buffs.

9Wly9oMl02May 11, 20174 votes

I just don't understand how people say Lee Sin falls off late game. Being mobile and tanky enough to get into their back line and then being able to CC their carry into your team is not falling off. And that's without the damage on it. If Lee Sin makes a nice play and kicks one of their carries into your team, you're going to win the fight easily and take objectives off of it. That's not "falling off". Falling off is someone like Panth.

Mira Arya EntheMay 11, 20172 votes

Because it is a statistical fact that his win rate over thousands of iterations drops the longer a game goes on.

Unload On MeMay 11, 20174 votes

Lee is useless in low elo (most elo's) and strong in high elo due to his skill ceiling. You've got it all backwards. Not sure who you're listening to lol.

SlythionMay 11, 20174 votes

what a shameless upvote farmer through the use of outdated or just straight up false "facts". Good job on putting the pro-play twist on it though, saved you some points although overall this is a bland and overused meme that has already been addressed by Riot with future nerfs

overall: 3/10 on the quality of upvote farm you've produced here

Diana holeMay 11, 20174 votes

I think autismos like fed by snu snu should be insta lynched due to spewing disgusting amount of false information for the sake of upvotes

Darkdemon653May 11, 20173 votes

No one has ever said he's useless in high elo.

As for falling off, he becomes an R-bot later in the game, where he's quite powerful on his own early (and still has the same R). That's a lot of power lost, which is literally the definition of falling off.

OleandervineMay 11, 20172 votes

This is more of a mislabeled eSports post.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 11, 20172 votes

lol. TSM won because of lee? did you watch the game. they won because they were so damn ahead because of kennen smashing his lane 10 times over. lee wasn't a major factor that game.

SoryInAdvanceMay 11, 20172 votes

Of course, there's always the argument that TSM is not high elo to be had.

LOL. They're the best team in NA and possibly EU too...that argument cannot "be had."

PePsiLemoNNMay 11, 20172 votes

Well he's getting nerfed , gotta farm those upvotes as much as you can before that right?

DracocrashMay 13, 20171 votes

we still on for farming apples?

Meep ManMay 11, 20172 votes

Uhm, absolutely no one says Lee Sin is useless in high elo, what are you smoking? It's the other way around if anything at all.

Magical ZoeMay 12, 20171 votes

Did not get the obvious satire?

chipndip1May 11, 20171 votes

No one says he's useless in high elo. If anything, he wins THE MOST in high elo because people there are better Lee players.

He's useless in LOW elo because Lee players there are usually garbage, or their teams can't make use of the advantage he gives them early on.

But yeah, he DOES fall off as the game wears on. That part's actually fact.

Fed by Snu SnuMay 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No one says he's useless in high elo. If anything, he wins THE MOST in high elo because people there are better Lee players.

He's useless in LOW elo because Lee players there are usually garbage, or their teams can't make use of the advantage he gives them early on.

But yeah, he DOES fall off as the game wears on. That part's actually fact.

So you are admitting that the most proficient a Lee, the more oppressive he is, even when playing against players of relatively equal skill?

Great. Don't need more than that.

Sorry, but providing a champion with enough mechanics to overpower me when in equal skill level is not called balance.

PopperFeine420Aug 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1OxZ3YKz,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2017-05-11T23:06:20.093+0000)

Sorry, but providing a champion with enough mechanics to overpower me when in equal skill level is not called balance.

How dumb are u, the best jglers in the world can't play ziggs JG and beat Lee sin no matter what elo, u litterally defined winrate in that sentence