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Fervor skews the power curve of ADCs in an unhealthy way

Big Lincoln··57 votes·3,073 views

late game ADCs in particular get far too much mileage of this mastery.

Previously, the way things generally worked was that most ADCs were lacking in early game damage, Draven MissFortune Lucian being the exception as the lane bullies that would fall off later on.

Ashe, Kog'Maw, Jinx, Vayne, Twitch, etc, were pretty low on their early damage and relied more on their supports either having the damage to make up for their weak early or being able to ensure they could survive lane. Fervor has changed this entirely. Now, Jinx is not only able to trade in lane, she's a more than competent bully herself. None of these champions need to rush Infinity Edge and be required to build at least one more item before they can be useful; only an attack speed item item 3085 is necessary for attack-speed carries (Ghostblade, in Twitch's case), and they will benefit from it more than they would an IE into Runaan's. Now, Jinx

Even more obnoxious is that it gives_ every _ADC a better late game than they've ever had. In addition to their high damage crits, they've got an extra 112 on-hit piled on, making item 3085 even more effective at shredding entire teams with rightclicks. Early game bullies and mid-game casters no longer fall off, even if they never get ahead; late game carries Jinx Ashe Vayne Tristana power-spike hard from just one item, and only get stronger with more.

TL;DR this huge boost in ADC DPS is bad for the game and skewers their power curve such that their supposed 'weak points' are never actually realized.

48 Comments

WoonStruck28 votes

Fervor is single-handedly why armor pen builds work.

With crit builds, its less than a 15% damage increase late game.

With pen builds, its easily a 33% damage increase late game.

If you'd notice, most crit-reliant champs often take Bloodlust over Fervor for this very reason.

Fervor needs to be deleted. Bloodlust probably does too, but its much less of an issue.

Big Lincoln3 votes

yeah, that too. I should've specified the difference fervor gives between crit/armor pen builds

Sightless6615 votes

I think you are completely wrong. The three champions using armor penetration builds all the time are MF, Jhin, and Lucian. Of these, Miss Fortune takes DFT or TLD, Jhin takes DFT, and only Lucian takes Fervor. 1/3 is not a good record. If we include penetration Draven, then we see Warlord's over Fervor every time.

The reasoning should be very clear. Crit builds will be much, much higher on attack speed and will get off many more fervor procs as a result. They also bring hurricane to the table, which has stupidly high synergy with Fervor. Their raw dps increase from having Fervor will therefore be much higher than an armor penetration build's raw dps increase will be.

Fervor and armor penetration builds are seperate issues. Not related.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Why should Fervor be deleted? Why not just, oh you know, NERF IT.

Big Lincoln3 votes

It's not really a problem for melee champions right now, which is why I think Riot avoids nerfing it. Since they have more trouble stacking it up in a fight, and can't also utilize Runaan's to apply the full on-hit to multiple people, nerfing Fervor would just be more reasons not to pick AA based melees like Yi and Jax.

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

Fervor needs to be deleted. Bloodlust probably does too, but its much less of an issue.

tl;dr delete the keystones that are effective against my main Vladimir

Deleting both will just bring back league of thunderlords cause that's so interesting and fun right?

item 3085 alone is the issue, imo.

WoonStruck3 votes

I don't have a problem facing Fervor as Vlad.

I have a problem facing Fervor as tanks, bruisers, and juggernauts, when I build high HP and armor and still get melted two or three times as fast as I would have in other seasons because of the free damage that Fervor offers with armor pen builds; specifically when Black Cleaver is involved.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

ADCs are supposed to kill tanks.

Now is the best time to play a tank! With all that burst in mid to absorb? When mages are popular, that's when tanks shine. Especially with how strong SV is and how cheap BV is.

Sona Ping2 votes

{quoted}

Fervor is single-handedly why armor pen builds work.

With crit builds, its less than a 15% damage increase late game.

With pen builds, its easily a 33% damage increase late game.

If you'd notice, most crit-reliant champs often take Bloodlust over Fervor for this very reason.

Fervor needs to be deleted. Bloodlust probably does too, but its much less of an issue.

You are completely wrong, in both your reasoning and the reality of the situation.

Jinx uses crit builds but takes Fervor. Tristana also takes crit and Fervor. Varus builds Arm Pen but overwhelmingly takes Deathfire Touch. KogMaws art going triforce into crit yet takes Fervor 84% percent of the time. And while Pen is the hot trend for Jhin, he never takes anything but Deathfire.

WoonStruck3 votes

Armor pen ADC builds are enabled by Fervor.

Obviously Armor pen works well for poke, just like it did before Last Whisper was changed.

Jhin is much more like an AD 'mage' than a traditional ADC.

Sona Ping1 votes

{quoted}

Armor pen ADC builds are enabled by Fervor.

Obviously Armor pen works well for poke, just like it did before Last Whisper was changed.

How? How does Fervor enable Armor Pen build when the only champion who does, is Lucian?

Follow up question: And if that is true, why then do "most crit-reliant champs often take Bloodlust over Fervor for [that] very reason." when in reality, crit-reliant champions do not show any favor to Bloodlust over Fervor?

Jhin is much more like an AD 'mage' than a traditional ADC.

Is he also not a Scotsman?

Imperial Japan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1ME7hyEm,comment-id=00020004,timestamp=2016-10-17T00:20:15.987+0000)

You are completely wrong, in both your reasoning and the reality of the situation.

Jinx uses crit builds but takes Fervor. Tristana also takes crit and Fervor. Varus builds Arm Pen but overwhelmingly takes Deathfire Touch. KogMaws art going triforce into crit yet takes Fervor 84% percent of the time. And while Pen is the hot trend for Jhin, he never takes anything but Deathfire.

A lot of high elo players recently have been taking Warlords bloodlust on Jinx instead of Fervor.

Sona Ping1 votes

I know. I know it is taken sometimes. You have look at the context of the conversation.

He is trying to create a narrative about Fervor and saying crit-reliant champs favor Warlord's because of it, when reality does not support that. "Crit-reliant" ADCs prefer Fervor frequently and ADCs like Jinx in high-elo take Fervor far more often than Warlords on every server where that data is collected, and up to levels like in Korea where Fervor is taken over Warlords more than 4 to 1 in high-elo.

Imperial Japan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1ME7hyEm,comment-id=0002000400010000,timestamp=2016-10-17T21:19:23.060+0000)

I know. I know it is taken sometimes. You have look at the context of the conversation.

He is trying to create a narrative about Fervor and saying crit-reliant champs favor Warlord's because of it, when reality does not support that. "Crit-reliant" ADCs prefer Fervor frequently and ADCs like Jinx in high-elo take Fervor far more often than Warlords on every server where that data is collected, and up to levels like in Korea where Fervor is taken over Warlords more than 4 to 1 in high-elo.

Actually it's only due to the slow transition people are taking to go from fervor to warlods

Elikain1 votes

Actually, it isn't. It's the efficiency of armor pen and availability that's the problem. Armor pen works because the champions it is getting used against don't build any, aside from occasional armor runes.

WoonStruck1 votes

Oh really? Please tell me how champions utilizing 40+ Armor pen are only effective against squishies when they often end up invalidating just under 200 armor of a 300 armor target. Yes, that's including the fact that Last Whisper is only bonus armor. 300 x .7=210 x .93=195 Take off around 50 from last whisper because most champions have ~80-90 base armor at 18. Remaining flat pen brings that armor down to 100.

Gee, sure seems like it works just because its good against people not building armor.

If you have 200 armor ~90 being base, 110 being bonus, you've dedicated two items to protection from physical damage, yet you end up with 200 x .7 = 140 * .93 = 130 ( 40*.45 = 22)->108. Add in flat pen, and you're barely above 50 armor, despite being level 18 and having two items dedicated to physical damage reduction.

When you consider that you have those two armor items, let's say item 3143 item 3742, you have to have an MR item item 3065. item 1001. A damage item so you're relevant item 3071. With just that itemization, you're still getting melted, despite all items having HP, and two of them having armor. With another armor item and tabi, it barely gets better.

Is it really any wonder why only tanks are viable outside of mages, ADCs (who are always required), and champions that can safely abuse armor pen?

Your armor is meaningless unless you buy more than two armor items, which is absurd. Even then, your armor becomes barely palatable at around 100 after all the armor pen.

Squishes aren't the ones suffering because of armor pen. Squishies can still do their job because its not invalidating 50+% of their gold. Its anyone that builds any amount of defenses in an attempt to live longer in teamfights.

Enemy AP carry fed? Too bad, you have to deal with getting chunked because you can't afford to build more than one MR item unless you include Merc's. If you don't use that slot for armor instead, you're still gunna die before you can do anything.

Enemy AD fed? Lol, you think armor's going to help? Stack as much HP as you can instead and hope its enough for you to CC them so your team can kill them first.

Elikain1 votes

Flat armor pen = - X from the value of your armor % bonus armor pen = % of the bonus armor value (LW items) BC has % armor pen = which gives more penetration

Flat armor penetration isn't strong alone to invalidate high armor values. But for squishies, that 40 flat armor pen pretty much equals to almost true damage dealt if they stayed on base armor + runes. And that flat armor pen also comes with a steroid (Youmuu's) and a Duskblade. What they end up doing is getting fed off easy kills and then they get items to bust through all the high armor values, along with more damage.

For the gold argument, well you're kinda right. Tanks do invest gold for tank stats and some of that value is lost with % armor pen items. But i think that LW items are fair (% bonus armor pen) as opposed to BC (% total armor pen).

WoonStruck1 votes

For the gold argument, well you're kinda right. Tanks do invest gold for tank stats and some of that value is lost with % armor pen items. But i think that LW items are fair (% bonus armor pen) as opposed to BC (% total armor pen).

This issue is mostly that they stack.

If item 3071 superseded all other armor loss, it would be fine.

I If item 3035 superseded all other armor loss (provided it's greater than any others that might have been purchased), it would be fine.

If flat pen superseded other options when it would reduce more armor, it would be fine.

The problem is the lack of restriction from the sudden rise in availability, which you've already pointed out in a way.

Elikain1 votes

Currently, BC has a better effect but it doesn't really get bought on many champions, only a few. So at least if they got rid of that effect and still slapped % bonus armor pen as well as on LW items, more champions would have the option to buy the effect tanks and still retain the variety in items.

As for the flat armor pen, i believe Riot did say they're looking to do something about it as the stat itself isn't in a decent spot. It either doesn't do anything or it goes overboard. Still don't know what though, maybe they're removing it altogether?

The Deckowner9 votes

keystone in general fucks up power curves.

cough lane trade basically decided by who prcs tld first cough

Talinis4 votes

Ghostblade is being reworked. It will no longer have attack speed and will be made to not be favorable for ADCS. That item is the real issue, once adcs get it and other assassins, their "weak" state is now over.

Tyto Mors1 votes

but what about my twitch, playing as an assassin before i get other items is good way to rake up some kills.

KingKong23501 votes

your stealth already has AS on it.

Tyto Mors1 votes

true, but early game it isnt that much, and late game stealth as been nerfed. and that item is what makes midlane assassin twitch work so well.

HazyCloud74 votes

Fervor in general is an absurdly unbalanced mastery. Hopefully they replace it.

Dengeden3 votes

The fun part about this is that ADs with a weak early game usually go Warlord's.

A "weak point" shouldn't be "you can ignore their damage during this point". That's what the ADC rework was about, making them an actual threat albeit in a telegraphed fashion: "Hey, I'm autoattacking you, might wanna do something about that"

Big Lincoln3 votes

The fun part about this is that ADs with a weak early game usually go Warlord's.

I have not seen any of the weak early ADCs taking Warlords.

A "weak point" shouldn't be "you can ignore their damage during this point".

If that's not going to be their weak point, then their late game shouldn't have been buffed.

Dengeden2 votes

It didn't. Their early-mid got buffed.

Watch any high elo ADC and you will see Warlord's.

Dolasaur1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1ME7hyEm,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-10-17T12:54:11.922+0000)

I have not seen any of the weak early ADCs taking Warlords.

If that's not going to be their weak point, then their late game shouldn't have been buffed.

It wasn't pure buffs; they also got nerfs. They lost ~10% AS in a two-AS item build, ~30 AD in a two-AD item build (more if you went three AD items), and LW went from total APen to bonus APen (i.e. worse until your target has about 250-300 bonus armor). The late game scaling of ADCs comes from the 5 factor multiplicative scaling (AS, Crit chance, Crit damage, APen, and Crit-valid AD). Three of those got nerfed last preseason.

On-hit APen may have gotten buffed, and it may make getting to late game easier. But it sounds like you're talking about the buff to potential late game. And despite getting 112 damage on-hit with full stacks, ADC are attacking more slowly than they used to, doing less damage on the earlier hits (before you get 4-5 stacks of Fervor), and can't afford to get both flat and % APen from items unless they sacrifice a life steal/crit chance/AS slot.

Rivuo2 votes

Pretty much all the attack speed adcs get free damage for no reason.

Late game the fervor can transfer so once you hit 8 stacks on the tank, you auto anything else and you already have 8 stacks so you can expect to take in 8x14=112 extra physical damage before armor

Which is pretty bullshit per auto lol

Fervor and thunderlords just need to be weakened

Sir Fuzzi4 votes

Dare I say that keystones should not be direct damage (onhit or otherwise)?

Keevalroy12 votes

I'd be all for keystones being removed entirely since they've done nothing but harm game health and balance.

ViiLLAiN5 votes

{quoted}

I'd be all for keystones being removed entirely since they've done nothing but harm game health and balance.

I hated the keystones just made some champs way to strong there was no reason to add them to the game in my opinion

MrWasjig5 votes

they've done nothing but harm game health and balance.

Fucking this. Since League of Thunderlords at the start of the season, keystones have been nothing but a balance nightmare that give far too much free power to champions they're good on.

Keevalroy2 votes

Don't say "free power" too loudly, the bootlickers will feel the need to inform you that the mastery trees from last season give equal power as these trees. Y'know, because Riot says so and we should believe anything they say. Why think for ourselves when they can think for us right?

MrWasjig1 votes

This cynicism, I like it. Good Sir can I interest you in joining me for a cup of tea some time? We can share cynical thoughts together http://gph.is/1sz8DUL

Keevalroy1 votes

Only if it's as cold and bitter as I am.

MrWasjig1 votes

In which case, you may wish for another beverage [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

All Skillzz2 votes

they are reworking masteries in the pre season. so well c how that goes.

Liofa2 votes

fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy - meddler

AirKingNeo2 votes

Reminder: Nerfing Fervor of Battle means they need to buff Kayle. (Otherwise she's being nerfed when she's in a balanced state.)

Champion Skin2 votes

While yes item 3085 work really well with Fervor of Battle... it also kind of work with warlords adding 50%-100% total AD in extra damage to life steal off

Also late game carries can benefit a lot from Warlords... since they are late game carries they have more then enough damage if they can just get there (and survive in the fight to actually use all that late game damage) Like Vayne with her absurd damage (especially with Q + IE crit which deals 4.2 times Vaynes AD) adding 100 damage to that isn't that amazing compared to the life steal from warlords allowing her to survive more and use that damage (and the sustain makes it easier to get through laning phase)

But... yeah Fervor of Battle is really strong in lane and well in general if you can stack it and abuse it without getting killed

tooomine1 votes

Nah, dude. You're wrong here. ADC's are supposed to be strong late game.

That much being said, even that can be considered a recalcitrant understanding of hwo the game works.

Your comment is worthless.

Big Lincoln10 votes

I didn't say they weren't supposed to be strong late game. I said that they were getting strong too early -- Runaan's should not be the only item Jinx needs to mop up a teamfight.

You didn't even get the gist of the post and you want to talk about worthless comments?

Wiz the Great1 votes

Literally 4 adcs use it: lucian and ezreal because they stack it fast and because the alternatives are bad, kog for same reason and twitch because he has nothing else to use.Also i guess kalista but she doesn't count as a champion in her current state

Yordle Xayah1 votes

Just for the record, Tristana doesn't have a "power-spike hard from just one item" Not since Rageblade went away.

five oh tree 1 votes

but most adcs that you mentioned take warlords lol... all 4 late game carries you mentioned take warlord's quite often. vayne is like almost 100% of the time, and the other 3 are like 50/50 warlord's ferver. If not tilted towards warlord's.

Geshultz1 votes

Honestly Fervor is stupid on lane bully adcs as it gives them a huge amount of late game power on top of their already good laning phase; basically Caitlyn, lucian ect.

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