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So, about "Important things missed in Tristana's update"...

Shinjusuke··3 votes·1,103 views

I sure hope to god that E change isn't the only kit change being made.

AP Tristana still exists, and I swear to god if that isn't the defining poster child of no counterplay, I don't know what is.

Please tell me we're not going to have to wait till some pro decides to do it before you guys will acknowledge AP Trist is bs actually gets rid of her.

You're updating the champion right now, AP Yi got the boot (or rather, was consolidated into the new Yi in some form) when he was updated. Tristana needs the same thing to happen or some hardcore nerfs that turn her into a gimmick.

I'm real sorry for advocating an outright removal of a playstyle AP Trist players (AP Ezreal is easily one of my favorite playstyles, but I really don't like AD Ezreal, so I do empathize, I promise), but AP Trist is utter bullshit and you know it. You can always play Leblanc as she's just about as much BS, but if Tristana is getting updated, the whole "Hey I deal 300% of your hp in less than .1 seconds and then jump away till my ult is back up" needs to go. Veigar trades being super immobile for the kinds of damage AP Tristana puts out, while Trist gets (unless she fucks up hard) an engage, knockback, and escape. (I'm not a fan of Veigar either, just fyi, but he's not getting updated right now).

Again, I want to apologize for the blatant "OMG SUCH OP REMOVE FROM GAME" thread, but AP Trist is about as no-counterplay as it gets. If the champion is getting updated, there's no excuse for Riot leaving her how she is, if "no counterplay" really is against their design policy.

22 Comments

Rebonack2 votes

The ratio on her Ult is going down. To get a similar level of burst she needs to charge up her E and then jump on you first rather than just Eing you, jumping on you, and then Ulting you away.

So yeah.

From what I understand her optimum damage is actually going up. But she'll need to charge her E to get it.

Shinjusuke1 votes

Could you share where you got that info?

I didn't see anything in the Riot post or what I saw on Surrender@20's coverage of the PBE, and she seriously needs bigger changes than an E change.

Thanks a bunch in advance!

Gunpoint1 votes

I don't know about no counterplay... She had quite a bit of counterplay actually, untargetability, invulnerability, health, magic resist.

Shinjusuke1 votes

All those qualified for AP Yi too and he was ridiculous for the same reasons AP Tristana is now, and you should know full well that not every character can justify just stacking health and MR to counter a champion with wayyyyyy outdated ratios.

Sure, you can have 5k hp and not be instakilled to AP Tristana anymore (and instead just be horribly repositioned and at half hp). Except you're Vayne, which means you're completely useless now and she's basically removed you from the game another, more efficient way. Counterplay =/= "Well you can stack X stat against them"

Lord Dusteon1 votes

Her E is physical damage now (somewhat nerf; means she can't itemize penetration for it), and unless she charges it with autoattacks and then jumps in she won't get the high damage she used to.

While I do sympathize (nobody likes playing vs AP trist. Unless you're Veigar ;3 ), she's already getting nerfed for that playstyle.

Shinjusuke1 votes

That's good to know. If you have any links for what her numbers changes are (surrender@20 doesn't have them atm) I'd love to see them. Just because she wasn't popular didn't mean she wasn't ridiculously bullshit, and I was excited to see a gameplay update for her until (at least from what the Riot post showed) I realized they apparently completely overlooked the playstyle that outright violates hardcore one of their base design visions lol

It is worth pointing out that whether the E being Physical damage can easily be a buff if it's scaling remains insane, as mixed damage types in her burst makes itemizing against her significantly harder (that's why Darius' bleed was changed to magic damage: To make stacking armor against him not as effective).

Lord Dusteon1 votes

{quoted}

That's good to know. If you have any links for what her numbers changes are (surrender@20 doesn't have them atm) I'd love to see them. Just because she wasn't popular didn't mean she wasn't ridiculously bullshit, and I was excited to see a gameplay update for her until (at least from what the Riot post showed) I realized they apparently completely overlooked the playstyle that outright violates hardcore one of their base design visions lol

It is worth pointing out that whether the E being Physical damage can easily be a buff if it's scaling remains insane, as mixed damage types in her burst makes itemizing against her significantly harder (that's why Darius' bleed was changed to magic damage: To make stacking armor against him not as effective).

For her E, it looks like .8 AP scaling (which due to the autoattacks scales up to 1.6). This still requires her to E you, then autoattack 4 times though.

For counterplay though, you can build an early spectre's cowl, which will kill any of her damage and allow you to retaliate.

Shinjusuke1 votes

Yeah, but that's speaking as if EIGHTY percent AP scaling isn't incredibly high to begin with, to go with the rest of her stupidly high scaling burst.

If you land a single autoattack you've outdone the pre-rework's E damage. Anything past that is pure bonus power.

Not to mention, AP Tristana is outright disgustingly snowballish. Similar to any other mid lane assassin, they don't get fed from laning, they get fed from roaming. There's only so much warning and so much punishing you can do against them. Not to mention, a miniscule lead puts AP Tristana on a .1 second point-and-click insta-delete fast track to snowball town.

Furthermore, counter-building is something that should be required because a champion gets ahead, not just because the champion has too much power. The fact that you have to rush a Spectre's Cowl to keep up with AP Trist, thus basically sinking 1400 of your gold which she puts into building a Void Staff which is universally strong on AP Carries, doesn't mean she has counterplay.

Lord Dusteon1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but that's speaking as if EIGHTY percent AP scaling isn't incredibly high to begin with, to go with the rest of her stupidly high scaling burst.

If you land a single autoattack you've outdone the pre-rework's E damage. Anything past that is pure bonus power.

Not to mention, AP Tristana is outright disgustingly snowballish. Similar to any other mid lane assassin, they don't get fed from laning, they get fed from roaming. There's only so much warning and so much punishing you can do against them. Not to mention, a miniscule lead puts AP Tristana on a .1 second point-and-click insta-delete fast track to snowball town.

Furthermore, counter-building is something that should be required because a champion gets ahead, not just because the champion has too much power. The fact that you have to rush a Spectre's Cowl to keep up with AP Trist, thus basically sinking 1400 of your gold which she puts into building a Void Staff which is universally strong on AP Carries, doesn't mean she has counterplay.

For damage, now you can go "oh, she E'd me, I better back off for now" and make her lose most of her burst (which starts at a base of 160(+.7)110(+.9)(unsure if buster shot changed)500(+1.5). So her base burst at max ranks is 970(3.1AP). Her MAX burst, assuming she autoattacks you 4 times and then jumps on you, is 320(+1.4)220(1.8)500(1.5). So her max burst is 1040(+4.7). While this is rather high, AP scaling wise, keep in mind that a Brand R base damage goes up to 1050, which ALONE out damages her entire burst's base. Also keep in mind, dfg is being removed and Tristana HAS to land 4 autoattacks and then jump on you for her burst.

If the enemy AP is buying Void Staff first item then rejoice because their damage is still shit. Otherwise, if your arguement is "I only have to build defence if I'm behind", then of course you are going to have troubles. Guess what, if you go glass cannon verse Veigar your ass is going to be handed to you. You go glass cannon vs Zed, your ass is going to be handed to you. If your goal is to never build any defence you ARE going to die unless you are ridiculously ahead (unless you are against Veigar. If you're stupid enough to build full damage vs him you deserve to die). Some champions are invalidated by one item (banshee's veil, mercury treads, quicksilver sash). If you decide to never build an item that basically removes them as a threat to you, that is entirely your problem.

Shinjusuke1 votes

I fail to see how Tristana "has" to land 4 autos for her burst when AP Trist has been W-> facerolling on her snowball spree for years now.

Furthermore, you're horribly putting words in my mouth.

Needing to buy specific items against a champion makes sense. Needing to counter-build purely because a champion has too much power, rather than because they're ahead of you, does not. Tristana following her typical damage build, while you have to consistently build against her, is not an equal exchange of gold loss, particularly since she turns those items into some ridiculous snowball power if she ever leaves lane, while you're stuck with your counter-build against Tristana. My point about Void Staff is that it's going to negate whatever you built against her because her burst is so ridiculous, and she loses nothing from building it as she was going to anyway.

Not to mention Tristana is not "removed from the game" with a single item buy because of her ridiculous scaling, and even if she were beaten in lane by a single item, it would be irrelevant, as, like I've already pointed out, the entire point of mid-lane assassins is to snowball off the other players in the game, not the mid laner trying to build against them.

HandheldBrandon2 votes

Yeah but the problem with AP tristana was that she could drop an E walk away and do half your health with zero risk. This new Tristana as to decide whether she wants the full damage or wants to get a half assed E.

Shinjusuke1 votes

New trist has 80% scaling on E vs 100% scaling on old Trist E, and that 80% goes up to potentially 160% if she opts to autoattack 4 times after she's used it. After a single auto it has the same damage, and it's not done over time so it's not aggro-ing minions every tick any more either.

Wouldn't exactly call that "half-assed"

HandheldBrandon1 votes

If Trist is auto attacking to get that proc then she is aggroing minions on every attack. If she wants that 160 percent then she has to commit rather than jump in blow e ignite and r and walk away. She now has to E which at early level puts her at serious risk then auto attack 4 times to get the maximum burst then rocket jump in. Thats an extra 2-3 seconds she has to spend in the fight which is more than enough time to blow her up.

Shinjusuke1 votes

You're right, but you're completely ignoring the part that her E isn't weaker post-rework. It's 80% scaling, as a burst rather a DoT (so regen means squat), without any autoattacks. Any autos she adds past the first are purely icing on the cake, and 1 auto attack at the same range as her E isn't exactly dangerous for her.

Not to mention, her E wasn't even ever the primary burst; Her scaling is so ridiculously outdated that her W-Ult combo is more than enough to 100-0 any squishy she encounters before they can react (like your bot lane for example). E was only ever a bonus, except now she can W-E-ult you into your team and Tada! she's dumped her load on your team as well.

I mean no matter how you look at it, AP Trist is a major abuse case in the current state of League. Back in "the olden days" when she came out, it was a bit different. But she outright violates Riot's fight against "no counter-play" and has ratios far above and beyond other mid laners. At the low, low cost of "point-and-click for damage", no less, and with nonexistent cast times or channel times (except for W). There's a reason they don't give assassins/AP burst champions that much point-and-click power any more, especially without vulnerability windows (as is the case with AP Trist).

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Ap trist is a gimmick.

Zed is an abuse case.

Zed is everything that AP tristana is plus more plus even more safety and mobility.

AP tristana is so rare that its not even truly a problem atm but Zed is everywhere and he is a MAJOR problem.

Shinjusuke1 votes

Being less popular doesn't magically turn an abuse case into a gimmick. That's just plain ignorant.

Twitch wasn't popular till he got his VU. He was still an abuse case.

Yorick isn't terribly popular. He's still an abuse case.

I'm not disagreeing that Zed is a major problem, but it doesn't make AP Trist any less of an imbalanced mess.

Regardless, she's gotten nerfs to her AP ratio's on the PBE now, which means Riot is aware that she's easymode BS. You're free to keep disagreeing, but she's getting some of her ridiculous scaling power taken away for a reason, and I'm content lol

Best of luck.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

It isn't an abuse case because it is literally a super one trick pony.

Yorick is only abusive in the laning phase out of that he becomes mediocre compare to all his other teammates. AP trist is so gimmicky that buying a banshees veil will literally kill her entire rotation.

Shinjusuke1 votes

As I've said, if your rotation is "killed" by someone buying a BV against you, you're an utterly god awful AP Trist.

But hey. You're going to insist regardless of reality, so I'm just gonna drop the discussion and enjoy her nerfs. Bye bye.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Says the pot calling the kettle black. You are so hellbent on getting tristana to be this oh so mighty cancer that you have built her up to be a cancer when in fact she is not in the eyes of the majority.

So hey ill enjoy the new trist with her .7 ratio on E and you go ahead and cry some more.

Lord Dusteon1 votes

{quoted}

You're right, but you're completely ignoring the part that her E isn't weaker post-rework. It's 80% scaling, as a burst rather a DoT (so regen means squat), without any autoattacks. Any autos she adds past the first are purely icing on the cake, and 1 auto attack at the same range as her E isn't exactly dangerous for her.

Not to mention, her E wasn't even ever the primary burst; Her scaling is so ridiculously outdated that her W-Ult combo is more than enough to 100-0 any squishy she encounters before they can react (like your bot lane for example). E was only ever a bonus, except now she can W-E-ult you into your team and Tada! she's dumped her load on your team as well.

I mean no matter how you look at it, AP Trist is a major abuse case in the current state of League. Back in "the olden days" when she came out, it was a bit different. But she outright violates Riot's fight against "no counter-play" and has ratios far above and beyond other mid laners. At the low, low cost of "point-and-click for damage", no less, and with nonexistent cast times or channel times (except for W). There's a reason they don't give assassins/AP burst champions that much point-and-click power any more, especially without vulnerability windows (as is the case with AP Trist).

You do realize she also lost 250 base damage, right? if she isn't autoattacking, her E isn't doing shit. If she doesn't jump in on an enemy with 4 autoattacked E's, her W isn't doing much either.

AccountaBilabudy1 votes

incoming item 3115 item 3089 item 3100 for Tristana

Raja Chachki1 votes

I agree, from the few times I went mid instead of ADC as Trist, I could tell that her ult, needed to go....ADC Trist is meant to be easy to learn, with a dip in her mid game. AP Trist....has nothing holding her back besides her ult cooldown.

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