I legit think brand does too much damage.

JuiceBoxP·Feb 28, 2019·6 votes·2,866 views

I play brand a lot and i truly believe he needs to be toned down. His poke is spammable, safe and deals massive amounts of damage. His teamfight capability is absurd. He clicks r and wins a teamfight.

a match where i ended with almost 13k gold, my top and adc had SIGNIFICANTLY more gold than me. https://imgur.com/ObXposU

Yet, i did 5k more damage than them.

https://imgur.com/SfgY96t

He deals too much damage without alot of AP and it's just too much IMO. The reason could be within his core build which is

But nonetheless his damage is absurd. i had matches where i easily did 20-25k more damage than everyone in the game while having around the same gold as them.

For a support which is a role deprived of gold i think he shouldn't be able to deal more than carry damage. I didn't even get a ... i had to get

25 Comments

JamareeFeb 28, 20197 votes

Brand is not a support.

Brand has never been a support.

Brand will never be a support.

Brand is a mage who can't cut it mid reliably anymore and thus has been relegated to poke support.

As for his damage, the reason he gets so much of it is because that is literally all he has. Other AP casters get longer range poke, more reliable CC at longer ranges, mobility, sustain and/or a pleothora of other things. All Brand gets is damage and dodgeable CC, dodgeable single target CC. If you want to take his damage, he has to be given something else to compensate.

JuiceBoxPFeb 28, 20192 votes

His ult is an AOE slow... but yes, i agree. i think he needs a rework. take away some damage, give him some utility to make him more supporty

JamareeFeb 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

His ult is an AOE slow... but yes, i agree. i think he needs a rework. take away some damage, give him some utility to make him more supporty

The last time they did that with Zyra, people bitched, but sure.

draco7777777Feb 28, 20191 votes

It doesn't slow until you get an item like item 3116

He doesn't need a rework, if anything he'd need his ratios knocked down a bit, or as someone else mentioned if he wants to keep his damage he needs to lose something else/have weaknesses to compensate.

He has high base ap ratios, and given literally his entire kit is damage, with a passive that deals even more (DOT to AOE that deals based on max hp) of course he's gonna do a lot of damage, even if behind.

A lot of AP supports do a lot of damage, that's just how they are. Sona and Zyra are two good examples, but obviously they their own pros/cons and are good at doing other things Brand cannot. That's just how League is. Also, having lots of gold or none doesn't mean much. If gold was that impactful then the game would devolve into a grind fest with item 1083 being OP (RIP Avarice Blade) and champions that had things that could grant gold to enemies would never be played (Heim, Zyra, Yorick) I'm clearly exaggerating but gold really isn't as big a factor as some may think. There's plenty of pro games where one team is behind in kills, gold, a dragon or so, maybe 1/2 towers up, but yet still loses.

JuiceBoxPFeb 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't slow until you get an item like

You are uninformed. his ult applies slow to burning enemies.

OFC his whole purpose is to deal damage, but i think it is too much.

draco7777777Feb 28, 20191 votes

I'm uninformed because I wasn't specific enough?

If they're set ablaze (Blaze effect) yes it does slow, but the ult itself does not slow without the proc from passive first, and if his ult does not bounce to nearby enemies then it will not bounce at all, meaning you can't apply your passive to one champion, meaning they won't be slowed as they won't be ablaze.

It's not too much at all. Do you think Zoe or Vayne do too much?

Let's entertain the notion that he does indeed, "do too much" then what would Riot do? Nerf his output, maybe increase mana cost or decrease casting range. It'd get to the point where either you can never land your skills, or if you did they'd do minimal damage when behind or not, or Brand would become obsolete because he simply was outclassed by other mages with longer ranges or better utility because it's not worth running Brand when his output isn't worth not having CC or heals or something.

JuiceBoxPFeb 28, 20191 votes

Okay, both of us understand how his ult works, you don't have to be a smartass about it.

Completely ignoring the fact is was a full item behind my entire team and i did a lot more damage than them. Also, when i suggested a rework i also said i think they should tone down the damage and give him utility to compensate.

thanks for the downvote btw

draco7777777Mar 1, 20191 votes

Don't say someone is uninformed then lol, that's pretty much saying they don't know what they're talking about, which is quite frankly equally as rude. And me clarifying and defending myself for your sake is by no means being a smartass. If I was then I apologize as I wasn't trying to be.

If they gave him utility, doesn't he just become another traditional mage support then? Obvious examples that come to mind are Zyra and Velkoz, whom I feel naturally deal a lot regardless of how ahead or not they are simply due to their kit and ability to "spam" abilities and deal damage consistently during the laning phrase and after.

I love Brand, I haven't played him as much as I want to, so I'm not against any changes, I just need to understand why he'd get any nerfs/reworks to kit or something, as personally I don't believe he does so much damage that it's game breaking. Obviously he does alot, any graph or Brand main can tell you for the most part, but enough that it's consistently giving him an edge on other champions or becoming free-lo if you pick him and click R isn't justified.

The thigh guyMar 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm uninformed because I wasn't specific enough?

If they're set ablaze (Blaze effect) yes it does slow, but the ult itself does not slow without the proc from passive first, and if his ult does not bounce to nearby enemies then it will not bounce at all, meaning you can't apply your passive to one champion, meaning they won't be slowed as they won't be ablaze.

It's not too much at all. Do you think Zoe or Vayne do too much?

Let's entertain the notion that he does indeed, "do too much" then what would Riot do? Nerf his output, maybe increase mana cost or decrease casting range. It'd get to the point where either you can never land your skills, or if you did they'd do minimal damage when behind or not, or Brand would become obsolete because he simply was outclassed by other mages with longer ranges or better utility because it's not worth running Brand when his output isn't worth not having CC or heals or something.

Okay. So say brand doesn’t have a slow because he requires his passive to have it? So does that mean he doesn’t have a stun? Or damage amp?

Does this mean kayn doesn’t have an ult because he has to hit people to use it?

Does this mean lissandra doesn’t have a passive because she has to kill someone for it so do anything?

Activation requirements do not remove something from someone’s kit.

The thigh guyMar 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm uninformed because I wasn't specific enough?

If they're set ablaze (Blaze effect) yes it does slow, but the ult itself does not slow without the proc from passive first, and if his ult does not bounce to nearby enemies then it will not bounce at all, meaning you can't apply your passive to one champion, meaning they won't be slowed as they won't be ablaze.

It's not too much at all. Do you think Zoe or Vayne do too much?

Let's entertain the notion that he does indeed, "do too much" then what would Riot do? Nerf his output, maybe increase mana cost or decrease casting range. It'd get to the point where either you can never land your skills, or if you did they'd do minimal damage when behind or not, or Brand would become obsolete because he simply was outclassed by other mages with longer ranges or better utility because it's not worth running Brand when his output isn't worth not having CC or heals or something.

Okay. So say brand doesn’t have a slow because he requires his passive to have it? So does that mean he doesn’t have a stun? Or damage amp?

Does this mean kayn doesn’t have an ult because he has to hit people to use it?

Does this mean lissandra doesn’t have a passive because she has to kill someone for it so do anything?

Activation requirements do not remove something from someone’s kit.

draco7777777Apr 2, 20191 votes

It doesn't but it hinders their effectiveness and forces them to meet the requirements before being able to use it. It doesn't remove it from said kit, correct, but it matters that isn't just "Deal X damage and stun for X time" , which is vastly different compared to "Deal X damage, and if target is ablaze, stun for X time" How strong Brand is would quickly change if it was like that, same goes for Lissandra or Kayn. If Liss could spawn them if she ults someone, or it were to proc on epic monsters too, wouldn't that change her strengths and make her deal more damage? Or make it easier for her to do certain things. A better example would be Kayn, if you just made it so he could just straight up use it, wouldn't it change entirely how he'd be played? It for sure would make him much harder to play against and fight.

But no, it doesn't remove something from a kit, but without the requirement, you can't use it, therefore it is useless and null (in the sense it won't activate, as in the case of Brand he can still Q.) Brand still has damage even without the stun affect, but without it early to mid game would be much harder and landing skillshots and getting picks with him would be harder. I don't even think he'd be played too often, as Zyra would be a better pick, as CC is pretty important in a composition and for sure is strong regardless.

VonToothskieFeb 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Brand is not a support.

Brand has never been a support.

Brand will never be a support.

Brand is a mage who can't cut it mid reliably anymore and thus has been relegated to poke support.

As for his damage, the reason he gets so much of it is because that is literally all he has. Other AP casters get longer range poke, more reliable CC at longer ranges, mobility, sustain and/or a pleothora of other things. All Brand gets is damage and dodgeable CC, dodgeable single target CC. If you want to take his damage, he has to be given something else to compensate.

that role should exist though. He needs a rework simply because he has no role to fill other than kill stealing with DOT and burning youre whole team to a crisp with 1 cast of his R

JamareeFeb 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

that role should exist though. He needs a rework simply because he has no role to fill other than kill stealing with DOT and burning youre whole team to a crisp with 1 cast of his R

He needs a rework because he has been regulated to the bot lane even though he isn't a support, what?

Light BurnerFeb 28, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Brand is not a support.

Brand has never been a support.

Brand will never be a support.

Brand is a mage who can't cut it mid reliably anymore and thus has been relegated to poke support.

As for his damage, the reason he gets so much of it is because that is literally all he has. Other AP casters get longer range poke, more reliable CC at longer ranges, mobility, sustain and/or a pleothora of other things. All Brand gets is damage and dodgeable CC, dodgeable single target CC. If you want to take his damage, he has to be given something else to compensate.

That isnt true at all. Brand has cc if you want to look at a kit thats "only dmg" and people want to take that away its zed's kit. Brand works better in bot lane because he can pop carries and his ult bounces on potentially 2 different champion targets allowing him to really shut down low range ad carries. He has 4 abilities which do dmg 1 of which can bounce around being his ult and hit the same target twice then he has his passive dmg after landing 3 abilities and his burn dmg. Adding up to potentially 6 different sources of dmg where as most champs have 3 as well as having a stun.

JamareeFeb 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Light Burner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1BKJnd8Q,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-02-28T21:19:39.838+0000)

That isnt true at all. Brand has cc if you want to look at a kit thats "only dmg" and people want to take that away its zed's kit. Brand works better in bot lane because he can pop carries and his ult bounces on potentially 2 different champion targets allowing him to really shut down low range ad carries. He has 4 abilities which do dmg 1 of which can bounce around being his ult and hit the same target twice then he has his passive dmg after landing 3 abilities and his burn dmg. Adding up to potentially 6 different sources of dmg where as most champs have 3 as well as having a stun.

Yeah, you just...listed out his kit, that is indeed Brand's kit. He gets one hard CC compared to other caster who some get multiple hard CC, true damage, mobility, and etc, even his CC requires prior set up compared to other champions.

Light BurnerMar 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, you just...listed out his kit, that is indeed Brand's kit. He gets one hard CC compared to other caster who some get multiple hard CC, true damage, mobility, and etc, even his CC requires prior set up compared to other champions.

name me one caster that has multiple hard cc with a decent amount of dmg on their kit?

JamareeMar 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Light Burner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1BKJnd8Q,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2019-03-01T06:00:35.376+0000)

name me one caster that has multiple hard cc with a decent amount of dmg on their kit?

Anivia, Orianna, Gragas, A Sol, Cassio, Galio, Liss, Neeko, Taliyah, Vel Koz, Xerath.

Light BurnerMar 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Anivia, Orianna, Gragas, A Sol, Cassio, Galio, Liss, Neeko, Taliyah, Vel Koz, Xerath.

Anivia hard cc 1 stun ori her ult gragas his stun and ult(technically not a mage type caster but okay I see him omre like galio which is closer to a tank which lacks in dmg but sure we can take galio and gragas) Sol is a knockback with his ult designed for his kit specifically and a stun velkoz only has a knockup xerath only a stun neeko has 2 roots but a channel on one Liss is the same situation as grag and galio hell she takes aftershock Cassio only has her stun

Note: Slows and grounded are soft cc not hard cc since the character is still able to move

So the casters you did name that actually have 2 hard cc For gragas and galio they are both melee casters unlike brand which is a ranged caster. As for sol his kit is designed to do dmg with the stars so the ult was needed for a disengage tool since he cant burst a target after stunning without his ult. Unlike in brand's situation he has so many dmg sources that many times he doesnt need his ult to kill a squishy target. Especially after he has a couple items if not just 1 under him.

Edit: if you look up gragas and galio on the client theyre listed under fighter (gragas) and tank(galio) so the only mage between them is sol and his W can be considered casted but hopefully you get what i mean when i say sol and brand have 2 completely different styles.

JamareeMar 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Light Burner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1BKJnd8Q,comment-id=000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-01T09:35:47.275+0000)

Anivia hard cc 1 stun ori her ult gragas his stun and ult(technically not a mage type caster but okay I see him omre like galio which is closer to a tank which lacks in dmg but sure we can take galio and gragas) Sol is a knockback with his ult designed for his kit specifically and a stun velkoz only has a knockup xerath only a stun neeko has 2 roots but a channel on one Liss is the same situation as grag and galio hell she takes aftershock Cassio only has her stun

Note: Slows and grounded are soft cc not hard cc since the character is still able to move

That's on me, I didn't read the hard CC part, I just meant CC in general.

So the casters you did name that actually have 2 hard cc For gragas and galio they are both melee casters unlike brand which is a ranged caster. As for sol his kit is designed to do dmg with the stars so the ult was needed for a disengage tool since he cant burst a target after stunning without his ult. Unlike in brand's situation he has so many dmg sources that many times he doesnt need his ult to kill a squishy target. Especially after he has a couple items if not just 1 under him.

Because that is once again, ALL brand gets. He gets damage damage and more damage because to get all that damage, he doesn't get sustain, his range isn't that long, he doesn't get mobility, his CC takes prior build up, he is naturally squishy, he has no defenses. EVERY other caster in the game gets SOME combination of other things to off set not having as much damage, Brand gets none of that, so his damage numbers are way high.

Light BurnerMar 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

That's on me, I didn't read the hard CC part, I just meant CC in general.

Because that is once again, ALL brand gets. He gets damage damage and more damage because to get all that damage, he doesn't get sustain, his range isn't that long, he doesn't get mobility, his CC takes prior build up, he is naturally squishy, he has no defenses. EVERY other caster in the game gets SOME combination of other things to off set not having as much damage, Brand gets none of that, so his damage numbers are way high.

And veigar and syndra? They have about the same range as brand in syndra's case lower, Her cc takes setup and is less reliable considering the opponent can see where she puts her ball down. Veigar's cc is hard to actually stun. Annie's range is lower than brands and her dmg is lower. Kartthus is even worse in all the cases we mentioned and he's still even more skill shot reliant than most mages. I wouldnt mind if brand could 1 shot a single target but the guy can melt an entire team even when hes not fed.

JamareeMar 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Light Burner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1BKJnd8Q,comment-id=00000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-01T19:43:50.974+0000)

And veigar and syndra? They have about the same range as brand in syndra's case lower, Her cc takes setup and is less reliable considering the opponent can see where she puts her ball down. Veigar's cc is hard to actually stun.

I mean if you want to discount the fact that those stuns have more range and are AoE, then I suppose it is comparable.

Annie's range is lower than brands and her dmg is lower.

Her cc uptime is higher as well as having defenses with her E.

Kartthus is even worse in all the cases we mentioned and he's still even more skill shot reliant than most mages.

Because he gets a global nuke ulti and a passive that lets him continue casting on death?

I wouldnt mind if brand could 1 shot a single target but the guy can melt an entire team even when hes not fed.

Because that is once again all he gets, if his damage goes down, he would have to get longer or more consistent cc, longer range and/or sustain, mobility or something to replace his niche.

Critmaster GarenMar 1, 20191 votes

its not brand himself. its just item 3151 is fucking r%%%%%ed since they buffed it.

single application of brands passive: 2% max health magic damage over 4 seconds. (depending on number of stacks it gets to 6%)
brands passive with liandries: 2% + 10, 5% max health magic damage (the last tick of brands passive extends liandries to burn to a total of 7 seconds)
brands passive with liandries and rylais: 2% + 17, 5% max health magic damage

see the problem? a single application of brands passive just by pressing e burns away 20% of your max health. this is just from two cheap items. he didnt lean into an ap build or anything.

this single item lets brand deal shitloads of damage on a support budget.

nerf liandries.