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Luden's Echoes is Straight Up Inferior Compared to the Other Jungle Items.

iPooUnicorns··45 votes·24,976 views

item 1400 /item 1412: sizable chunk of AD + CDR, exactly what aggressive AD champs want. item 1401 /item 1413: HP, +%HP, and AoE magic damage to massively increase clear speed for tanky junglers. item 1416 /item 1419: One of the highest attack speed items in the game, paired with % Max HP damage, insanely good for AA based champs.

All of these items are perfectly tailored to the champions that build them.

Now let's take a look at item 1402/ item 1414 Only 60 AP, the same amount of AD that Warrior gets, which is baffling considering that AD ratios are more often than not higher than AP ratios. The other stat is +7% movement speed, which isn't bad by any means, but the vast majority of AP junglers would prefer CDR or magic pen. Finally, the passive is a cut rate item 3285 passive. Runic Echoes is 60 + .1 AP, whereas Luden's Echo is 100 + .1AP. The only advantage Runic Echoes has is some mana sustain when clearing jungle camps. Except Luden's Echo has vastly superior mana sustain because it builds out of Lost Chapter now.

This is one of the biggest reasons AP junglers are struggling right now, and unless Runic Echoes is buffed or reworked, it would probably be better to skip it entirely and just sit on the smite upgraded items.

The best fix I think would be reworking it entirely.

Have it build out of item 3802 Stats could be: 70 AP 20% CDR

This would bring it much more on par with non-jungle AP items. Also if you're concerned that it goes from 25 AP -> 70 AP, it isn't much more drastic than Warrior going from 25 AD -> 70 AD.

56 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectar27 votes

We talked about Runic Echoes in planning for the 8.9 patch last night, we ended up passing for now while we look at a bit of a larger jungle pass to come in 8.10. Don't have much detail in regards to direction atm, but it's on our minds.

Jmman16 votes

So AP has been struggling BAD in the jungle and its just keep passing the buck down the road.

Good thing. Because if it was a ADC item it would have been hot fitted with like 20 AP and something else then Looked at. I mean we don't want AP jungle. I mean we do but we don't want to do anything to actually help them. Just all talk right. With promises down the road.

Riot is like the Ex-girlfriend that only tell you want they think will make you happy and continuing to do only why they want and other view points be damned.

Uh huh.... going out with the girls tonight I see. Ok Riot do what you want but we all know what is really happening.

RiotRiot MapleNectar32 votes

Or we're doing a full pass on the jungle and want to change everything at once. We'd also buffed runic on 8.2 - so it's not like we've been ignoring it.

InstaPoppy5 votes

The only thing i dislike about runic echo's is that i get a wasted passive if i also want ludens for the mana, burst and cdr. Tear feels kinda akward to build in the jungle and glp is just a weird item.

Bootleg Gay1 votes

I've been going on about this for months! Once you get Runuc Echoes, you basically can't partake in another normal Mage item.

item 3285 is redundant and has almost no cost efficiency. item 3003 is almost unusable by most mages because that means they have to invest in stacking it, and for assassins, the early game is too crucial. item 3030 Overlaps with item 3152, making use of only one active at a time and again, lowering the cost efficiency of your typical burst pattern through your items.

I used to run Echoes with the old Morellonomicon, cause the mana and Mana refund have been key factors in allowing certain assassins to go in a few times instead of just once because of mana issues. Because Runic Echoes only works on monsters, and since your Mana pool is gonna be really small, it's just not worth it to crawl into the jungle to try to farm up for extra Mana in the case of say, defending a tower, or helping to seige one.

Jmman3 votes

then I have to ask why did you nerf fiddle's wave clear and -5 ad to all if you are going to do a "full pass" on mages wave clear?

Would this not fall under the same situation? I asked because from my prospective you are playing whack-a-hole.

Again, have you not buff champs and items knowing you are going a full pass soon just to make it more balanced until you do?

Just my thoughts. I rather you read my other one in the balance thread than this (its a lot nicer and ask an interesting question imo.)

Edit: about that buff is that what the player base wanted or what riot wanted and the boards said wouldn't really help? Did someone not look at the gold efficiency after the buff?

Ahristocats7 votes

he already said that fiddle is performing the best midlane, the damage on minion nerf was made because fiddle mid was going to be busted with the changes

BestPudgeNA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19w4vVJK,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-04-10T18:54:37.251+0000)

Or we're doing a full pass on the jungle and want to change everything at once. We'd also buffed runic on 8.2 - so it's not like we've been ignoring it.

Runic Echos was given 10% extra mana per proc this is a laughable nonsensical nonbuff for a role that gets the early blue buff and has item 1039. Do you guys even have anyone on the balance team that plays jungle?

I would suggest Runic needs to be split into two items one for Amumu Gragas type junglers and one Elise Evelynn.

Mirage Night1 votes

Man speaks logic.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

we all know what is really happening.

You don't speak for the community.

GripaAviara3 votes

You guys know 8.9 > 8.10 :P

GodlyBane2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19w4vVJK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-10T17:29:08.271+0000)

We talked about Runic Echoes in planning for the 8.9 patch last night, we ended up passing for now while we look at a bit of a larger jungle pass to come in 8.10. Don't have much detail in regards to direction atm, but it's on our minds.

The problem with this item is its only good early, and it is so garbage compared to the actual ludens echo, so people often just sell the jungle item for the more superior one (90 AP, 500 Mana, wwwaaaayy better burst damage)

Steelflame1 votes

There is one good point to it. In the early-mid game, it + another Aether Wisp or two item can let you completely skip boots. Too bad some of the only Mpen you have access to is on boots....

SonicÐeHedgedawg2 votes

For what it's worth, as an Evelynn main, I actually value the movement speed more than I would value mana. Since most AP junglers are assassins, I'd feel that most feel the same way unless they have internet Mana issues

iPooUnicorns1 votes

Thanks for the response, I'm excited to see what you guys have in store for Runic Echoes and the jungle in general!

WiegrafOfValor1 votes

Why not make the AP jungler item give M. PEN, and have the passive that after casting an ability your next basic attack will be converted to magic damage + deals bonus magic damage scaling with AP.

Giving raw AP is useful for some AP junglers, but not all of them, since their AP scaling varies to much from one another.

My two cents:

RUNIC ECHOES: 15 M. PEN 10% CDR

SAME MANA REGEN PASSIVE

NEW PASSIVE: AFTER CASTING ABILITIES, YOUR NEXT AA IN THE NEXT 5 SECONDS IS CONVERTED TO MAGICAL DAMAGE AND DEALS 25 + ( X% AP) BONUS MAGICAL DAMAGE.

mtothe6thpower1 votes

This is what caused smite runeglaive ezreal mid in season... 5 I think? It wasn't a good time. Plus having your entire auto be converted to magic damage might be too strong on its own. Idk. I just know that they tried that exact thing before, minus the MPen and it was bad.

PapaGreg211 votes

I have to take Runic on Nautilus jungle because you guys didn't give him enough mana to clear without it.

ExternalLink18 votes

I disagree with it being CDR. Nidalee Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks

These are really the only true AP junglers. (Amumu, Gragas, etc, generally stick to more tank builds rather than being truly AP dedicated) Fiddle has always been a bit of an oddball. Which really leaves only Nidalee, Elise and Eve. All of which rely on burst combos, and would likely appreciate Penetration or move speed much more than the CDR (simply because their build already has a variety of options to achieve cdr, whereas other sources of pen or movepseed are limited.)

MohawkBird7 votes

[deleted]

Eedat2 votes

I dunno man. Jungle items are cheap and flat magic pen is such a powerful stat early. You could build jungle item plus boots and be dealing true damage for like 3600g. Like imagine if they replaced the 10% cdr on warriors with lethality. That would be busted

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

I dunno man. Jungle items are cheap and flat magic pen is such a powerful stat early. You could build jungle item plus boots and be dealing true damage for like 3600g. Like imagine if they replaced the 10% cdr on warriors with lethality. That would be busted

Funny enough, Warrior used to have flat armor penetration (lethality didn't existed back then). They removed the flat armor pen when they removed The Brutalizer, which built into this item (The Brutalizer was essentially item 3133 + item 3134 combined into one item)

They removed the flat armor pen but to compensate they increased the AD (used to be only 40 AD)

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

Maybe it could be some amount of %mpen

iPooUnicorns2 votes

Adding magic pen could end up being problematic. These champions would be able to get 48 magic pen with this item, Sorcerer's Shoes and Oblivion Orb/Morellonomicon. If Runic Echoes shares the unique passive with Oblivion Orb, they would be discouraged from getting Morellonomicon's grievous wounds.

Additionally, CDR is rather useful on Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks and I somewhat disagree with their access to CDR.
The only CDR item they have in common is item 3157. Elise and Eve sometimes get item 3152 and Eve gets item 3100. Each of these items only grant 10% CDR, and Transcendence is not worth sacrificing Celerity for mid/late game CDR.

i kick routers3 votes

[deleted]

iPooUnicorns1 votes

As someone who's played a fair amount of Elise , high CDR feels absolutely amazing on her... if you can manage to build it. Being able to swap back to human and have all of your spells off CD makes for incredible teamfight/extended skirmish prowess.

SonicÐeHedgedawg3 votes

I'm an eve main. And I disagree with CDR making the item good for her. She already gets 20% from Lich Bane and Banshee's Veil. Her Q already has an ultra-short CD and her other skills have non-CDR dependent gates (w doesn't go on CD until after charm is popped or expires and E is only really useful when it's empowered by entering stealth). So basically any additional CDR is just for her ultimate.

Conversely, as one of the ONLY assassins not to have a gap closer, she needs every bit of movespeed she gets. I know that giving her flat M Pen would be good in its own way, but CDR or mana in place of the current Runic echos item is a flat nerf to her. Likewise, nidalee doesn't tend to have mana issues in the jungle, fiddles definitely doesn't (and also ONLY needs CDR for his ult) and Elise doesn't tend to either.

So while I could consider talking about changing jungle items, the only way to IMPROVE the item over its current state is to build it out of orb of Oblivion, not out of a lost chapter

iPooUnicorns1 votes

That's fair, she's one of my less played junglers, and I'm a bit of CDR freak, I hate not getting 40% CDR towards late game.

Maybe something similar to item 3152 could work.

SonicÐeHedgedawg2 votes

I think you could make the argument that jungle items need division for AP champions the same way that AD champions do.

Just like some AD champions prefer raw AD and CDR and some prefer attack speed and on-hit damage, some mages want burst and value stats like Movespeed, Flat AP and magic penetration and some prefer sustained magic damage output that favors Mana, CDR and spell vampirism. But, like I said, I understand the argument that the item is undertuned, but I disagree that its stat distribution is bad because, for Eve, it's quite good

big boi edri2 votes

{quoted}

Adding magic pen could end up being problematic. These champions would be able to get 48 magic pen with this item, Sorcerer's Shoes and Oblivion Orb/Morellonomicon. If Runic Echoes shares the unique passive with Oblivion Orb, they would be discouraged from getting Morellonomicon's grievous wounds.

Additionally, CDR is rather useful on Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks and I somewhat disagree with their access to CDR.
The only CDR item they have in common is item 3157. Elise and Eve sometimes get item 3152 and Eve gets item 3100. Each of these items only grant 10% CDR, and Transcendence is not worth sacrificing Celerity for mid/late game CDR.

You say you can't sacrifice celerity... yet you're proposing to remove the massive 7% movement speed?

SonicÐeHedgedawg1 votes

If you jungle Diana, she ends up mana hungry, but, I agree, most AP junglers get way more out of movespeed and magic pen than they would from Mana and CDR

Charm With parm2 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with it being CDR. Nidalee Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks

These are really the only true AP junglers. (Amumu, Gragas, etc, generally stick to more tank builds rather than being truly AP dedicated) Fiddle has always been a bit of an oddball. Which really leaves only Nidalee, Elise and Eve. All of which rely on burst combos, and would likely appreciate Penetration or move speed much more than the CDR (simply because their build already has a variety of options to achieve cdr, whereas other sources of pen or movepseed are limited.)

i agree fully, just pointing out that you forgot Diana

Masala Chai1 votes

Diana isn't a very good jungler since she clears pretty slowly, and her gank presence is pretty bad.

the weeaboo1 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with it being CDR. Nidalee Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks

These are really the only true AP junglers. (Amumu, Gragas, etc, generally stick to more tank builds rather than being truly AP dedicated) Fiddle has always been a bit of an oddball. Which really leaves only Nidalee, Elise and Eve. All of which rely on burst combos, and would likely appreciate Penetration or move speed much more than the CDR (simply because their build already has a variety of options to achieve cdr, whereas other sources of pen or movepseed are limited.)

Ekko is also pretty good run in the jungle and relies on burst instead of CDR

Cynikul4 votes

I was originally going to down vote admittingly, did a little research though...

Its literally, and by far, the least gold efficient (hard to calculate cinderhulks however)

Give it like +20 ap and bump the MS to like 9%, boom done.

GudLunchHavFries4 votes

Its Runic Echoes...You messed up the title

dude..what the hell man, saying the wrong name of an item? Shame on you.

Luden's echo is the main mage ap item

Runic echoes is the jg version.

Runic item 1402

Ludens item 3285

Your point goes out the damn window if you can't get the name right.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

Whoops.

Jabberwöcky4 votes

remove echo from item 1402 .

bring back the little ghost wolf who follows you around. When you cast and land an ability (just like comet mastery), he will chase someone down and bite their ankles.

idc about damage %, i just want my wolf back.

Sex Crazed Eve2 votes

I would give my left arm for a penetration... passive on runic

Linna Excel2 votes

IMO if runic echoes was 60 AP and 15 armor pen, it might be a decent jungle item.

However I think there are more issues with AP junglers in general:

  1. A jungler's time to shine is in the first 10 minutes of the game, so completed items are less of a concern.
  2. There aren't that many AP junglers to begin with.
  3. A lot of junglers with AP scalings are tanks and riot has to take that into account.
  4. E3 (effing Ezreal effect): Ezreal breaks everything he touches so AP jungle (or lane) Ez might break a better runic echoes.
  5. If it's too good than AP mid laners and supports will start picking it up which defeats the purpose of it being a jungle item. See point 4 and the old elder lizard item.
  6. Junglers have the second least amount of money in the game, so riot has to balance the items accordingly. This along with point 5 is the real catch-22 situation.
  7. 60 AD for a jungle juggernaut who's only going to get that as his damage item is a completely different beast than a mage or AP assassin in the jungle.
  8. What exactly do we want out of AP junglers anyways? I think if we can answer this, figuring out a good item for them will be easier.
Mcsquzzy1 votes

i wanted to think of an idea but between the necessity of not being able to stack the damage of ludens and ezreal, the ideas i thought of just fell out, one was to make it disarm monsters(drake and baron/herald not included) and change ms to 10% cdr is prob the only one that holds

edit:

after reading below maybe not change ms to cdr really cant think of anything that can improve this item due to its problems, I am leaning towards bringing back elder lizard item passive but then ez...

screw it slap a 3% ms and 15 more base damage on passive and call this a day

SpiritOfOdysseus2 votes

AP ratios are by default, always lower than AD ratios. Despite AD having two means of damage- both basic attacks and very often abilities.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

Right, which is why I don't get why Runic Echoes has the same AP value as Warrior's AD value.

Skeletons Grave2 votes

It used to have cdr, but then only fiddle really liked the stats it gave. There where also mana issues in the jungle at this time.

At another time it had a mini lich bane effect on the jungle item. This **heavily **(too good probobly) benefited auto attack mages that could proc it like elise and eve. It however was near useless on actual mages in the jungle like fiddle

The current iteration does indeed suck. But at least it gives mana regen which is what was lacking in the other 2. However it still has the same issues, it doesnt suit all the ap champs it needs to and its stats are low. Ap junglers still and always have been split between those who can buy it and get good use out of it and those that just skip it.

So if cdr doesnt work, a small unnecessary luden proc doesnt work, 7% ms isnt enough, and lichbane effect is too good and too focused, then the next options would seem to be mana, flat ap, and MS.

They should not go pen because then junglers have a pen advantage.
They should not go ap utility like rylais or hourglass because it will never measure up to the real item. They should not go mana regen since that is primarily a support stat now.

There are however 2 additional options that MIGHT work. item 3001 have this passive on the jungle item with a small amount of mana and ap. Or give it a GLP or protobelt active with small ap and mana. item 3030 especially needs a ton of work to actually be viable in mid lane so if they instead try it out as a jungle active it might actually see play. The active theoretically works well with ap junglers too due to their short range and desire for its extra damage and utility.

astralwit1 votes

I miss the 10% CDR on Runic Echoes! I also liked the Runeglaive with Sheen but it was maybe too situational. I'm not sure what can be done but it does feel that all the AP junglers are a bit underpowered atm.

I definitely think that it's weird that Runic Echoes gives the same amount of AP as Warrior does AD. AD is a more expensive stat and helps more for clearing and fighting/doing objectives too. It's true it has a proc. and some MS but it lacks the 10% CDR.

I think many AP junglers struggle a bit with the damage they take from camps. I know Ekko JG certainly does (among other things). Maybe Runic Echoes could give a bit more sustain. AP junglers generally kind of fall off anyway so they need to be able to pressure more.

Still, if Runic Echoes just had 5 more AP, it would already be fine balance wise imo.

Velasan1 votes

I wonder if a mini liandries item would be good for the jungle. Like, 70 AP, 20% CDR, and applies the health burn on your abilities. Most champions like health burn, but liandries as an item is now much more of a tank busting niche. HP burn is also good against the high HP jungle camps and drag/baron. Also, the hp% burn would remain constant, so it wouldn't add a huge amount of burst while still adding consistent damage.

Not sure if that's the right way to go, but worth thinking about at least.

Cerbearus1 votes

Damn I would love some magic pen. Pretty rare stat in the game right now.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

The other stat is +7% movement speed, which isn't bad by any means, but the vast majority of AP junglers would prefer CDR or magic pen.

I'm sorry but this is entirely innaccurate. A LOT, if not ALL of AP junglers have low base MS, the only exceptions being Elise and Nidalee who do not always have it.

You THINK the MS would be fine leaving, but the moment it was removed you'd realize how beneficial it truly was.

CDR is packed into A LOT of items, and it's relatively cheap to itemize into for AP champs item 3108 (900gold) and item 3114 (800g) vs item 3133 (1100).

Mpen would be a nice stat to see attached too the Echoes passive, but not in exchange for the MS, when AP junglers pretty much just take item 3020 unanimously anyways.

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