Vlad's new kit, while thematically hitting the mark, falls flat.

WoonStruck··2 votes·745 views

Everything was nerfed. Every. Single. Thing. Even W damage.

Passive AP->HP ratio nerfed, HP->AP ratio slightly buffed. HP feels more rewarding than AP now, but that's only because E is a misguided spell, not because the passive is decent. One of the weakest 'gold multipliers' in the game now. It was already weak before, but at least it allowed him to go full AP and still function.

Q: Over the course of 3 Qs, you deal less damage and heal less than the old one, when Q wasn't a problem after laning. Can also be reduced by Randuins now. No longer benefits from 100% increased healing via E. The heal being nerfed isn't even factoring in WotA getting deleted.

For reference, old healing was 15 / 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 (+ 25% AP) + 8%/16%/24%/32% according to E stacks. Effectively 19.8/33/46.2/59.4/72.6 (+33% AP) the majority of the time after level 5, but before WotA. In addition to the fact that his old E increased HP potions and HP regen. WotA itself made that 132 (+45% AP). Over 3 Qs, you'd gain 396 (+135% AP). Now its 295 (+45% AP) over 3 Qs at level 9. At level 18 it becomes 430 (+45% AP). Old Vlad (if you didn't build poor items like SV) ended up with between 500 and 700 AP, depending on choice. New Vlad builds 2 AP items, the rest HP+resist items.

Effectively, his sustain is being gutted. Illaoi heals more than him. Darius heals more than him. Pretty much anyone with sustain heals more than him now.

W: HP ratio nerfed by 50%. HP cost hurts a lot more with the overall reduced healing and higher cost on E. Not necessarily bad, but with the damage being nerfed, the health cost should probably go down a little more as well.

E: While thematically fulfilling, its very awkward to use. Its targeting is buggy; it can't even be described as a 360 Ashe volley. The things closest to you don't even get hit sometimes, and a minion is like Yasuo windwall blocking Nami ult. It was made way too inconsistent, and that's not even addressing the new numbers. His E costs way more HP and doesn't increase his healing now. People are saying "YOU CAN MAKE IT HIT 1000 DAMAGE", but old E still did more DPS. You could easily achieve 500+ damage per cast, and it has half the CD of the new one. Not a fulfilling change at all, and only serves to make him weaker with the current numbers. Not to mention it makes building AP feel REALLY bad with how weak the new Q is, and that means he can't sustain his kit's HP costs if he's building to make E powerful.

R: Took significant nerfs (duration, amp, damage proc) in exchange for a 50% heal that won't let you do anything at gold and above. Its effectively a win-more button now.

However, the biggest issues with this update isn't the numbers. Vlad still suffers from glaring accessibility issues in teamfights/skirmishes, and the update is only making it worse. The nerfs to a few of his items isn't helping him either.

Vlad was already an extremely situationally successful champion, and the update mitigated those windows further and made them less consistent, making him even worse than his current bad state.

TL;DR Overall, while it feels more rewarding to build HP (which is a plus) and his E thematic is a lot cooler, the direction of his kit is actually just as negative for his health. Since all he offers is damage and how situational his kit is, with the addition of the situational success of his Q/E, he will never be a decent pick unless he's flat-out over-tuned.

**This update does nothing to improve the usability of Vlad, and does everything to let literally any champion play against Vlad. Buffing numbers will not fix this because then we run into the same exact issues of him either being overpowered or utterly useless. **

If this is where he's going to be pushed, as a Vlad main, I think he needs a total rework retaining only his W and new R, the only truly satisfying and thoughtful aspects of his kit.

Please don't push this Vlad out and proceed to leave him for the next 2 years.

33 Comments

LostFr0st1 votes

Have you calculated in the new SV as well? I love Vlad too; so I'm just asking.

WoonStruck1 votes

I'm not finding the new changes. I know the MR is being nerfed to 55, but forgot what the other changes were accomplishing. Care to remind me?

Unless you're talking about his new healing in his kit, which is still weaker than his old healing. Plus he has higher HP costs.

franticFurball2 votes

Assuming by SV you mean "SpellVamp": There is no SV to factor in, because item-dependent SV will be removed from the game. Entirely.

The only item that retains a similar effect, will be Hextech Gunblade. Which requires Cutlass and gives AD. Wasted gold on a Vladimir. Oh, but it gets better: Hextech Revolver no longer gives ANYTHING similar to old SV...so the alleviation of vlads early game slump by the purchase of Revolver is gone as well.

In short: The champ is dead. Just another reason for me to say good bye to league.

LostFr0st1 votes

Spirit Visage-->item 3065 <---this thing got changed

franticFurball1 votes

So? It was crap on Vlad before they decided to gut SpellVamp, how do you think it will influence things now?

The 20% extra healing come at a price my friend: an item that doesn't give you damage. And don't try to argue with Vlads passive, HP-to-AP conversion rate has always been crap, and its not changing with the update.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

The 20% extra healing come at a price my friend: an item that doesn't give you damage.

HP is better for his damage now than AP, ironically. E is where all his damage sits now. Rylai's, Deathcap (mostly for the heal ratio and to get as much AP in the fewest slots as possible), SV, Randuins/DMP (don't auto though), and either void staff, warmog's, Abyssal, or Liandry's. Zhonya's won't be a good buy on him anymore.

LostFr0st2 votes

As OP replied, the conversion has changed. You can also now rush Rylais, very powerful in lane especially early.

VvVVvV1 votes

All i want to know is, will this new kit still let him 1v4 the other team 15 , 20 min into the game.

WoonStruck1 votes

No it won't let him do much. You have far more down-time and your DPS and usability were reduced significantly. Not to mention your early-mid game is MUCH weaker.

WoonStruck1 votes

Spirit Visage will be a must-buy on him now (HP>AP now). Most likely, Rylai's and Deathcap will be the only AP items he grabs.

However, it still leaves your healing severely weakened compared to the old kit, along with having higher HP costs and less damage.

Again, the biggest issue with Vlad is usability, not numbers. Numbers can be moved up/down, but with the current patterns of the kit, he will always be either useless or overpowered based on balance, putting him in the same spot as now, but feeling much, much worse when he's bad.

Plus this update gutted his ability to go mid. He can't even waveclear now.

LostFr0st1 votes

I don't get that feeling though from new Vlad. His numbers are a bit undertuned, but we've already heard from the designer that those can be tweaked easily with the new kit. Plus he has more AD now for last-hitting. He'll be much tankier and won't be blown up instantly if he messes up. I'm thinking [item 3158 / item 3111 / item 3020 ] item 3116 item 3065 item 3151 item 3089 item 3001 normally?

He can even get these items now without feeling bad about them if really in need of crit defense/waveclear/regen item 3143 item 3068 item 3083 He also doesn't have to get item 3157 now if he doesn't want to.

WoonStruck1 votes

He will almost never get item 3157's now. Item's gutted and doesn't synergize with his kit well anymore.

HP adds just as much damage as AP without the drawback of being squishy. You want as much AP in as few slots as possible to simply help with the Q heal. That's it. If you go high AP, E ends up feeling pretty lackluster, and is actually a huge nerf compared to live.

But again, Vlad's issues are not numbers. Its the usability of his kit. He will still always be either overpowered or relatively useless. His performance, despite having a reliable kit, was unreliable. The update is now making his kit unreliable, without making his performance more reliable.

The update is making him more of a swingy balance problem than he already is, which is pretty ironic.

LostFr0st1 votes

That's right, more gold for useful stuff :P So you've tried him on Pbe then? He seems pretty strong but not quite in the right place from what I've seen.

I'm keeping tabs on this thread to figure that stuff out right now http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/geVackqi-mymu-vladimir-discussion since there's way more info than what they gave us.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

That's right, more gold for useful stuff :P

I've been playing Vlad for a long time, and since the AP was nerfed from 120 to 100, I've been going mid, rushing WotA+Abyssal on him. I generally didn't buy Zhonya's until 5th/6th item slot, if I even bought it.

So not having to buy Zhonya's doesn't actually help him all that much, considering he was still bad when it wasn't even purchased in most games.

I haven't tried him on the PBE, but I've been watching streams. Any time Vlad's 'successful' its because people on the PBE aren't very high level. Vlad being situational doesn't apply to them because nobody actively tries to avoid the situations he excels in. Not to mention they just eat Qs for days in lane without retaliating when they could all-in him to force him to base or get a kill. Hell, most don't even build dorans+cowl to auto-win lane against him.

On live, Vlad's going to be ripped apart in every aspect. Laning, mid-game, late-game.

LostFr0st1 votes

I guess we'll have to wait and see then.[zombie-nunu-bummed] At least he'll be there for a month so people will get used to playing vs and against him.

If you have Pbe try to spectate the custom games on the client since they are usually rigged into fair teams by the streamers themselves the're much closer matches usually.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Plus he has more AD now for last-hitting. He'll be much tankier and won't be blown up instantly if he messes up.

That AD for last hitting won't make the difference between being able to last hit after 2 turret shots on melees and 1 on caster creeps. It literally doesn't matter. It just solidifies him as a top-lane pick (where he's actually weakest, map-wise) because its the only buff to his harass, and it only functions top lane.

He won't be getting much tankier. He's getting 7 more HP at level 18, and his hp/level was lowered. So much for 'base stat buffs'. Building high AP makes you squishier than before. I'd hardly call that 'much tankier'.

Besides, you still get blown up if you mess up because you aren't full armor tank. You can't afford to build enough MR to not get poked out, considering how your Q functions now.

LostFr0st1 votes

The AD makes it so it's easier to keep the from getting under tower in the first place...[zombie-brand-facepalm] The new passive changes make it so that health is a much better stat (people need to adapt; glass cannon isn't best now), Vlad will be tankier and is very hard to kill so he just sits there dealing damage like Mundo or Offtank top Alistar without dying.

You can build an armor Hp item now and still get damage is what I'm saying. These are now viable and give AP for Vlad: item 3143 item 3068 heck even item 3056 is viable.

WoonStruck1 votes

Vlad's auto-attack frame wasn't improved, so sitting around to auto attack minions to stop it from pushing into you isn't exactly viable in lane. Not to mention that in order to maintain pressure so you don't get all-inned all lane, you need to constantly worry about auto attacking the enemy laner and running out of minion aggro, while spamming Q off CD. That's IF he's not going against even a moderately aggressive laner.

Against someone like riven, he won't even function now. A skilled Vlad could edge out Riven, Irelia, etc. Now those match-ups will be absolutely impossible.

LostFr0st1 votes

On live when you are being pushed in you need to Q and E minions in order to stop from getting pushed it. Q doesn't draw aggro but autos do, therefore Q can now be saved for harass and autos for last hitting. Vlad's auto frame isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
It's nowhere near Swain level of terrible and has a nice particle unlike Zil. Once you get Rylai's [now first item] Riven should be diner for a Vlad that positions and uses pool correctly.

WoonStruck1 votes

Actually, on live you let them push you into tower, tap E with 0 stacks, and you can perfectly last hit every minion after it takes tower shots.

No, his auto-frame isn't the worst, but considering its range, its pretty bad. Look at Morgana's in comparison. Gnar, Ryze, etc.

Also, Rylai's never saved Vlad from Riven. It saves you from Irelia, but not a Riven who doesn't absolutely suck.

LostFr0st1 votes

Our Vlad styles are completely different then. item 3070 I auto attack mania the wave against pushers :< Let's be honest here, who can actually escape a Riven that doesn't suck :P

I actually have less trouble with her than Irelia on live though once I have Rylai's for some reason, it must be our playstyles I guess idk.
I kinda end up playing Vlad like Aurelion Sol would lane though in those match-ups (in that I keep always a certain distance away). It's certainly like laning on a razor's edge sometimes.

Yeah Morg's is comparable to Vlad's for me personally, Gizmo's Gnar is really nice, and Ryze's is crisp after his update a while ago definitely.

Erockandroll1 votes

Just keep in mind that it's still on the PBE. Any bugs that are spotted are probably going to get fix. Also Riot's main goal should be game health. As long as Vlad's kit is healthy, they can add power later if they find it under performing.

But looking at the abilities again. It looks as if they are really pushing him towards that Battle mage fantasy. Aside from buffing his HP->AP ratios, his Crimson rush can restore part of his missing health, And his E deals damage based on how much health has been spent.

Personally, I like these changes. Though I won't say much about balance, I've really wanted Vlad to perform as that mage/tank Hybrid, and not just as a burst mage with a lot of healing. Giving him more power when he builds defensively.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Just keep in mind that it's still on the PBE. Any bugs that are spotted are probably going to get fix. Also Riot's main goal should be game health. As long as Vlad's kit is healthy, they can add power later if they find it under performing.

But looking at the abilities again. It looks as if they are really pushing him towards that Battle mage fantasy. Aside from buffing his HP->AP ratios, his Crimson rush can restore part of his missing health, And his E deals damage based on how much health has been spent.

Personally, I like these changes. Though I won't say much about balance, I've really wanted Vlad to perform as that mage/tank Hybrid, and not just as a burst mage with a lot of healing. Giving him more power when he builds defensively.

Even if bugs are fixed, like the MS bug and blood hitboxes being far too large atm, he will still have the exact issues I'm talking about.

The idea of the directions are good, but the kit is not.

He still has glaring usability issues that were not addressed in the rework. He's even less functional than before. If they buff numbers he'll be OP, if they don't, he'll be the worst champion in the game. Overall, he's going to be just as much of a balance problem because he's not consistent enough already, even with his extremely consistent kit. The new kit is making this worse without addressing is old usability issues. Buffs will not make this kit any more healthy than the old one.

Its not numbers I'm concerned about, its his kit's accessibility. He can't make plays with it, he has to hope that stuff is happening in range of him, which simply doesn't happen gold+. Even in silver he's unreliable.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak2 votes

The worst part is he's actually not far from being healthy as he currently is. They could just remove spellvamp, adjust the way he heals from his Q in his current iteration and touch up his particles, base movement speed or other attributes. He'd be a problem top lane? All ranged are problems toplane. As it stands, he currently has meaningful weaknesses in that his early game is absolute garbage and his mid / lategame are where they should be for the amount of farm you need and the positioning required to get his damage out.

Lugg1 votes

I think his new kit has the potential to be great once they fine tune it. Let's see how it pans out on the PBE.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

I think his new kit has the potential to be great once they fine tune it. Let's see how it pans out on the PBE.

Biggest issue with judging the kit atm is how buggy his Q and E are.

Q apparently only gives the MS on the very blood rush proc of the game, and fails to afterwards. Its like they added 'after 3' script, then didn't add a restart at the end.

E Doesn't hit what it should in a lot of cases. Its like Nami ult vs Yasuo wind wall.

However, it still stands that his new kit is slightly weaker (can be fixed) than his current and less reliable (can't be fixed). His performance was already shaky before, despite his kit's reliability. While normally this means they can give him buffs...due to the unreliability they added, lack of CC, and "I only do damage" aspect of him, it means he has to be either overpowered or he simply won't be worth using.

He was supposed to get significant buffs for the unreliability, as his reliability and spell vamp are what held him in such a weak state.

He's not even breaking even atm, and just suffers from being less reliable vs live. **This rework is not good, and will only serve to make his balance state worse, even if they buff numbers. **

The thematic direction, however, is good, and I'm actually impressed by how it turned out. But he needs things to increase the amount of situations he can actually perform in, especially since grievous wounds is so easily accessible. More-so than just using Vlad's kit.

If he can't go mid, Vlad won't even be a good strategic choice, so things need to be done to push him there. IMO, he's simply not healthy top. Either people can all-in him all game, or he just sits and Q spams on a melee the entire time.

Lugg1 votes

I agree that he does need some utility. He needs a reliable slow or CC. If nothing else, they need to make him tankier to at least be a pain to deal with in teamfights.

WoonStruck1 votes

Tankiness likely won't be an issue. I'm almost certain his build with this kit is going to be Core: item 3116+item 3089+item 3065 Situational: item 3742 item 3143 item 3083 item 3151Highly situational: item 3157 item 3001 item 3135

Keep in mind Warmog's has 10% CDR now and helps alleviate his health costs while pushing. DMP provides permanent MS bonus as long as you don't auto attack (which provides no benefits for ranged). Randuins will help him survive ADC focus and allow him to maneuver around a teamfight a little better. All are viable due to E now. Sunfire would be an option if he had any significant mobility, which he does not atm.

Most people will be using item 3158, and possibly the new rocket belt for CDR. I'd be running a 20%+ CDR rune page so I can grab item 3009 (makes you immune to slows with stormraider's surge) or item 3020 , though.

AP isn't slot-efficient on Vlad anymore. His ratios were gutted. You need Rylai's to function, and you grab deathcap to make your Q useful and buff the healing as much as you can out of those two slots. The rest is straight HP+defense/utility.

He needs better ways to maneuver in fights. Ways to get in to deal his damage. Currently his Q was close to fulfilling that, but its simply not enough. Still have to rely on Stormraider's Surge to teamfight decently.

Twitch Chat1 votes

Your old kit numbers are wrong. Vlad E heal amp is currently 8% per stack at rank 5 not 25% per stack like the health cost.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Your old kit numbers are wrong. Vlad E heal amp is currently 8% per stack at rank 5 not 25% per stack like the health cost.

You're right. Fixed.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

i think you mean...it falls vlad..teehee

..alright ill leave now.

option paralysis1 votes

His E looked pretty weird to me at first, then I saw it costs 10% max hp and then I saw it doesn't hit everything in your range anymore. Hmmm, k den. Idk, The one fucking thing I wanted to stay on vlad was his waveclear and jesus christ, I can't get even that. So, I'll have to spend like 20-30% of my hp to clear a fucking wave and not a single thing of that dmg will heal me, cuz no more spell vamp. That heal on his ult looks pretty big but that doesn't make up for all those nerfs and just looking pretty awkward to play, at least to me. And I bought Blood Lord Vlad couple months back, damn.

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