Why was Akali so hated, but Sylas is fine?

Terozu··6 votes·2,926 views

His heal is a targetted dash that's far more powerful. He also has another dash that gives him an above average strength shield. That then becomes a third dash(abduct is considered a different ability, that's 4 basic abilities btw) which stuns then knocks up a target. He has an aoe damage burst that then bursts again.

That's 3 dashes in basic abilities.

And then he can use literally any ult in the game.

Compared to a character from a different game, The Morrigan from smite.

She has a skill shot mark that increases damage dealt. She has a close range stun. She has a stealth decoy. Her ult temp gives her the character's entire kit and can target enemies and allies.

Yet she still isn't as frustrating to deal with, because?

She's actually built with a power budget. She dies to a fucking sneeze. Some cases that is literal.

Blizzard aknowledged that her ult is an insane amount of power. They took it and gave her a simplified base kit, with a bit of self peel and made her squishy to make up for it, letting the player rely on wits to trick a foe.

Sylas? His ult is an insane amount of power. Riot took this, and decided, that he needed a stronger than average base kit, with more tools than a normal champion. On top of that, they made him tankier than average.

And leading this back to the title, WHY DOES NO ONE SEEM TO CARE!?

The outcry against Akali was so fucking loud. She lost both obscurance and her healing, which was her whole shtick!

Even though the healing was far less powerful and actually had a condition in that to utilize it she had to play passively and wait for a spell rotation.

His heal is more powerful and far more aggressive. He has anywhere from 1 less dash than her to 2 more dashes than her.

Why does no one seem to care or mention anything about him?

66 Comments

Rıots Bad Client6 votes

I find Sylas pretty okay, and not annoying.

It becomes a mini game with Sylas of who can use the ult better. Its a game both can play.

While Akali you play her game. what game is that? Not even sure. Just try to hit her before she kills you.

And the big issue is Invisibility. Simply annoying. Not Broken. just annoying.

Terozu2 votes

I definitely find massive healing mid fight far more annoying than not being able to target someone.

I would prefer to fight an ulted Vayne to a Sylas tbh.

datmuemue2 votes

Akali does both lol. She Q's you and heals up with an auto. May not be as much, but it's not dependent on lost hp. So there's very limited things you can do while she shows up. If your champ doesn't have a good aoe ability you basically are giving her time to chip you down

IP Masquerena2 votes

She doesn't have healing in her kit anymore.

Love the players who don't even know what champs do but talk about balance...

Rıots Bad Client1 votes

{quoted}

I definitely find massive healing mid fight far more annoying than not being able to target someone.

I would prefer to fight an ulted Vayne to a Sylas tbh. Thats fair to say. I just find it easier to deal with heals with grievous wounds as oppose the lack of tools to fight invisible reliably. and item 3364 isn't reliable.

Luxanna Ahegao5 votes

sylas is aids who said he was fine

Terozu1 votes

No one mentions him and I don't understand why Akali got and still gets as much hatred as she does when he exists.

Makarakarn4 votes

Because Akali is more "frustrating" to play against I think is their logic about it?

Terozu2 votes

I genuinely don't understand how, slight healing for playing passive and hitting a (admittedly easy)skill shot is considered more frustrating than massive healing for all inning with with a targtted dash...

SuicidePlank5 votes

{quoted}

I genuinely don't understand how, slight healing for playing passive and hitting a skill shot is considered more frustrating than massive healing for all inning with with a targtted dash...

Have you tried playing melee vs Akali? It legit makes me want to AFK. SLOW, ha can't catch me because I also get more Range and Movementspeed, also I get Energy back, negating my costs for the most part. Sylas I can fight, Akali I can't. Might just be a personal disliking, who knows, but that is my reason.

Terozu1 votes

Her passive gives her 1/10th to 1/8th a Q's worth of energy I think.

10 energy is not a lot.

Also, yes, I have played melee vs Akali. I did on the PBE and on live. Outside of the turret diving (which no one believed should exist and was plain stupid) I didn't really have anymore issue than with a Kha'Zix.

SuicidePlank1 votes

{quoted}

Also, yes, I have played melee vs Akali. I did on the PBE and on live. Outside of the turret diving (which no one believed should exist and was plain stupid) I didn't really have anymore issue than with a Kha'Zix.

Except Kha doesn't slow you, doesn't get extra Range on his AAs after, doesn't heal of his Q and doesn't get MS from it. Just rip parts out of it, just the slow and the extra Range and I am fine.

ThisName1sDumb2 votes

{quoted}

Except Kha doesn't slow you, doesn't get extra Range on his AAs after, doesn't heal of his Q and doesn't get MS from it. Just rip parts out of it, just the slow and the extra Range and I am fine.

Well kha does have a slow on his evolved w

SuicidePlank1 votes

{quoted}

Well kha does have a slow on his evolved w

Yes, on a different Spells. That's not Q AA. Akali does get everything from her Q and AA.

Terozu2 votes

Kha... Does slow you, healing himself, he does get movement boosts, he also gets bonus range on an empowered auto.

SuicidePlank2 votes

{quoted}

Kha... Does slow you, healing himself, he does get movement boosts, he also gets bonus range on an empowered auto.

On different Spells. Which is my point. Akali just gets that from her Passive and her Q.

Terozu1 votes

Khazix gets this from his Q and his w. 2 spells each. Unless I'm mistaken.

Makarakarn2 votes

{quoted}

I genuinely don't understand how, slight healing for playing passive and hitting a (admittedly easy)skill shot is considered more frustrating than massive healing for all inning with with a targtted dash...

Because it's not. It's mostly the shroud and the execute damage of the ult people typically complain about

Irelia Bot2 votes

{quoted}

Because Akali is more "frustrating" to play against I think is their logic about it?

So where are the yasuo nerfs making his windwall only last for half a second and his mobility reliant on his flow?

Infernape3 votes

Because they don't need to as Riot's gutting him anyways.

Sylas's problems come from the fact that Riot still hasn't made AP fighter itemisation and he has to have a ridiculous amount of shielding/healing to exist. And a lot of people still complaining about him.

Terozu3 votes

They buffed passive damage and partially lowered the range, slightly lowered it to non primary targets(which ALWAYS should've been a thing) and letting him store charges.

Overall? That's a damage buff for a range nerf.

Chain lash part 2 got a buff revert.

The heal got a nerf revert.

The shield is getting a major buff but requires him to now hit a skill shot(which again ALWAYS should've been a thing).

(I saw ALWAYS in all caps because I said this 1 week into his pbe testing.)

That's a...

neutral, nerf, buff, neutral...

Net neutral.

Totally gutted.

Spooks and Null3 votes

Its a big nerf to Sylas. You're being very vague with regards to the actual changes and what their impact is. A buff doesnt always equal a nerf, it depends on severity and the impact that the change has on the champion, in which, Sylas is getting some very impactful nerfs compensated by unimpactful buffs.

The lower passive AOE size is HUUUGE and cripples his laning harrass consistency, as good sylas players would constantly proc this to harrass laners. Not to mention how much waveclear hes losing due to passive, which hurts his ability to push and makes his laning much less scary for opponents like Darius or Renekton who can fight him early.

slightly lowered

You mean 30% lowered. Damage buff is compensation mostly, its +4 at level 1 and +6 at level 18. Wow. Massive. Totally net neutral. The two charges is nothing. All it does it let you use E1 and immediately E2, good sylas players don't need two charges as they would space out E1 and E2. The Q's secondary damage AP ratio is getting lowered by 1/3rd and its base damage cut by 5 - 30, which is pretty extreme considering Sylas relies heavily on his Q for damage, as his W is mainly an execute, and he's often forced to save it for the heal. W heal is a revert buff. E moving of the shield is massive. This effectively means in lane, your shield lasts 0.5 seconds less (as thats the time of his E2's stun) and also hurts his dueling, since Sylas in lane often delays between E1 and E2, which means hes much less safe. The shield base strength buff tries to help with this, but this is very far from a net neutral change. You're deluding yourself if you think the changes to sylas are neutral, they cripple his safety and massively hurt his ability to lane into ranged champions especially. His W healing and E shield compensation aren't enough to make this a net neutral change, when mechanically, he's losing much of what makes him strong.

EDIT: Here's the actual Changelist thats on the PBE, so that we can have full clarity:

Petricite Burst (Passive)

  • Damage changed from [(100% AD)+(5+2.5 per level)+(20% AP)] to [(100% AD)+(9+3 per level)+(20% AP)]
  • radius reduced from 400 to 250
  • now does 30% reduced damage to minions other than the primary
  • Now has 2 charges

Chain Lash (Q)

  • Q2 explosion radius reduced from 200 to 180
  • Q2 Damage lowered from 45/70/95/120/145 to 40/60/80/100/120
  • Q2 AP lowered from 60% to 40%

Kingslayer (W)

  • Heal increased from 60/80/100/120/140 to 70/95/120/145/170

Abscond / Abduct (E)

  • Abscord no longer shields
  • Abduct now only shields on champion and monster hit.
  • Shield value increased from 60/90/120/150/180 to 80/120/160/200/240

EDIT 2: My mistake. I read the passive AOE vs. minions reduction incorrectly. Its minus 30%, instead of minus 70%. My point still stands.

Zeyphel2 votes

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Terozu1 votes

Uhhh what?

I never said he was strong or has a high winrate or anything.

I asked why Akali was so hated but he's fine.

Using your logic he also has a higher wr. So. What?

Zeyphel1 votes

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Terozu1 votes

I didn't exaggerate his abilities.

I compared them to Akalis and The Morrigan from Smite.

If that sounds like exaggerating it when it's just a direct comparison, do you think he might just have more stuff?

Zeyphel1 votes

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Terozu2 votes

? Sylas Passive: Lich Bane with Ravenous Hydra centered on Sylas. Q: Aoe X damage that leaves a bubble which pops to deal damage again and slow. W: dashes to the target and heals based off missing health(even at high health it heals more than Akali's old healing). E: Dash and gain an above average strength shield. Second E: Throw out skill shot that stuns, dash to stunned target and knock them up. R: Use any opponents ult with their cooldown before you can use their ult again and your own cooldown before you can steal someone else's ult.

Morrigan Passive: Every third auto deals bonus aoe damage. Q(1): Skill shot that deals minimal damage but marks target. If Mark is detonated by her abilities high damage. W(2): Send a clone to a specific spot and stealth. If you take damage or deal it remove stealth, if clone takes damage becomes a badass bird and flies away. E(3): Snare all enemies in front of you in melee range. R(4): Become an enemy or ally for X seconds, you have their full kit. Cooldown is based on whether you used their ult or not.

Akali Passive: After hitting a target with an ability and successfully disengaging(or more difficultly, chasing) your next auto will do bonus damage and minorly restore energy. Q: AoE attack with a smaller aoe that slows. W: Shroud that makes you invisible within it's moving aoe and move buff, also large energy recover. E: Throw skill shot and dash opposite way. If hit you can dash to hit enemy. R: Dash with little damage to microstun targets. After a moderate lock out dash again to execute.

My issue with Sylas is, they're actually very similar.

Passive is an enhanced auto, but Sylas' is flat out better.

Q is an aoe attack with a conditional slow. But Sylas' has a larger aoe for both and deals more damage.

W is a great defense tool. But Akali forces her to go passive to make use of it.

E free dash, conditional skill shot dash.

Their base kit is really similar, but well, Sylas is just better. He has better burst, better sustain, more aoe, better single target.

Then you get to ults. Sylas can complement that same amount of safety, and damage and mobility, with a ton of different options.

Sylas' kit is more overloaded than Akali's, but she's hated and he's not really mentioned.

Zeyphel1 votes

I can't say anything about the comparison with Morrigan since I don't know that character well enough but with regards to Akali, let me say why Akali is consistently more of a problem than Sylas.

While it is true that Sylas Q1+Q2 could do more damage than 1 Akali Q if the Sylas player is good enough to hit both parts (which is nothing easy btw), Akali's Q is much easier to land on an enemy and has nearly no CD. Compare 1.5s CD to 9/8/7/6/5s CD.

Akali is also much more mobile than Sylas in most aspects. She has more movement tools than Sylas and also most of them are dashes which give her more freedom of movement around the map and better roaming.

As an extra detail, she has way much more burst damage than Sylas and her combo is much more easier to do than Sylas's combo and even faster.

Terozu1 votes

I will say her combo is probably faster as well, but I don't think a full combo from Akali does as much as Sylas, and the mechanics in her kit seem far more difficult.

I'd have to actually do the math on that though and I'm to tired to, I'll do it tomorrow.

She has one more dash than Sylas though three of her dashes aren't reliant on a target, but they can also be dodged making them less valuable since hitting them is more required for her.

Also, since Akali's Q is gated by a high Energy cost you actually have to consider that, saying she can Q twice from full Energy, you can consider it charge based. She gets 1 'charge' every 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 seconds, hitting her passive refunding 1 second. And unlike actual charge based spells that can't be lowered by cdr.

Though her W gives her one free charge.

I will also point out that Sylas' Q has higher base damage and it requires 2 Akali Qs to match one Sylas Q anyways.

Their passive damages are roughly equal but lean in Sylas' favor due to natural ad scaling and his passive dealing damage equal to a crit + AP scaling.

Basically, to match Sylas' damage Akali needs to Q twice and get both assassin's marks on the enemy, this will match Sylas' getting the first part of his Q off and his passive off. If the second part of his Q goes off he wins.

Akali has to reposition way more to get her passive her slow is conditional and very narrow area and she has much less aoe damage in general.

Akali has to work harder for less damage.

And then Sylas is also safer.

Now I feel like this comment is probably nonsensical and confusing because I can barely hold my eyes open. So I'm going to bed.

Moody P3 votes

No it isn't. Sylas is a problem because he's meant to a contextual counter pick and yet has absurd safety and wave clear making him basically guaranteed to always be relevant or farm his way back into relevance.

He has far too much power on basic spells for how potent his ultimate is.

Sir Saltarin1 votes

Literally anything related to an AP champ

Boards: that's caused for not having AP bruiser items

Zeyphel1 votes

[deleted]

Moody P1 votes

If you understood the game at all youd realize that his range and wave clear on Q is in fact high safety and its not a strength Riot wants him to have which is why they're nerfing it

Velasan3 votes

I don't know that Sylas is fine... and actually I don't mind Akali so much particularly after the nerfs. The only thing that bothered me about her was the tower invisibility, and that's gone.

For Sylas he doesn't bother me because he's SOOOO team dependent. Both on his own team and on the enemy team. He doesn't really want to be the solo engage, and if the enemy has anti healing he wont be able to live through engaging the front line by himself. For the enemy team he needs good ulti's to steal, and if they have the wrong ones that don't mesh well with his ultimate steal then he lands up handicapped.

Surely Sylas' kit is overloaded, but on the other hand he requires a lot of other variables falling into place right now to reach peak strength (at least at his current numbers).

Kelg3 votes

Sylas cant hide in smoke for 7 seconds and zone/harass you for half your hp while doing so

Terozu1 votes

No he can just out damage you with better wave clear has a good shield for trades then can end trades by restoring a lot of health.

Kelg2 votes

{quoted}

No he can just out damage you with better wave clear has a good shield for trades then can end trades by restoring a lot of health.

He is bs too, but not as much as Akali.

Secretly a Phos1 votes

How is Akali more bs? She's squishy as hell, dies to any aoe, needs to land an entire combo with basically her whole kit to do what Zed can do with rq, has a stealth that forces her to stay in one area to be stealthed, cannot stealth under turrets, does to any cc, and her ult has a 2 second delay for the actual damage on an assassin, which means you ready need to be either fighting enemies with no cc or fed enough to 2v1 to even have r2 be useful. Sylas is both objectively stronger at bursting a target AND less conditional.

Zeyphel1 votes

Maybe because his abilities aren't in 1 second CD and because he doesn't have 4 dashes? What else do you think might be?

Terozu1 votes

He has 3 dashes without ult.

She has 2.

With ult he can have up to 6.

SuicidePlank3 votes

{quoted}

He has 3 dashes without ult.

She has 2.

With ult he can have up to 6.

Lol, you are not even telling the truth. Akali has 4 dashes. E Cast, E recast, Ult Cast, Ult Recast. If you count Sylas E when hit as dash, you have to count Akalis E as hit too.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Lol, you are not even telling the truth. Akali has 4 dashes. E Cast, E recast, Ult Cast, Ult Recast. If you count Sylas E when hit as dash, you have to count Akalis E as hit too.

Without ult.

Spooks and Null2 votes

One dash. One gap closer that requires hitting a skillshot One short range targetted gap closer that barely moves him.

Totally the same as a backflip, a dash to a target or smoke, a dash and a delayed second dash.

Terozu1 votes

Uhh they both have a free dash and a dash based on hitting a skill shot.

His also shields him and he has a third dash that heals him.

She has an execute dash and microstun dash.

He can have up to 3 more (Ahri) dashes on top of that. Or 2(Akali) Or 1(any champ with a dash ult.)

Spooks and Null3 votes

It must be so easy to win when your opponent is one made from straw.

His dashes are much smaller. His W is barely even a dash.

Akali has one dash that always works, One that can be activated from that dash if she hits a target. Then a long dash that has a stun attatched, and a second dash that can execute.

Additionally, only one of Sylas' dashes can be effectively used to go in a direction of his choosing, as W and E2 are dependent on the enemy's position. Akali can use two of her dashes (r) in any direction, and her E1 in any direction, while her E2 is dependent on enemy positioning. Let's also not forget Akali's 7 - 9 second true stealth with movement speed and her passive's movement speed.

If you're seriously going to be including Ahri in this example when we are talking about base line movement mechanics, as opposed to a conditional maybe steal that depends on fucking champion select, then by that logic i'm allowed to put Ivern and Thresh on Akali's team and give her two more dashes. Don't try and pull shit out of your ass when it's so painfully unrelated.

I play both Sylas and Akali fairly frequently. It's clear you play one of the two and have an extreme vendetta toward the other. They're both very different champions, and comparing the two, especially when you need to have fucking ahri in the game to make your argument even remotely sound, is incredibly disingenuous and it makes actually trying to discuss anything with you feel like shouting at a brick wall. That sounds harash, but you see things far too Black & White to ever have serious discussion.

Fr tho. How can you ever use that Ahri example and genuinely think that your argument stands strong.

Zeyphel1 votes

[deleted]

Terozu1 votes

All dashes are gap closers.

Just because it requires a target doesn't make them not a dash.

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