Ap itemization is so unsatisfying.

Dasdi96·Oct 9, 2017·45 votes·5,606 views

When I play ap mages, I only really feel satisfied when the game reaches 45+ minutes (full build) as it finally looks like I am doing damage. is a bit too expensive and has a horrible build path. build path is also horrible. What's really weird is a full ap build is more expensive than a full adc build yet it doesn't scale as well. Back in season 4 and 5 I could shut down fed adcs even if I am 1 item behind them. Now I just get bursted by them. If I build early my damage becomes laughable as they can easily life steal through my damage, and if I try to rush damage, they burst me faster.

68 Comments

Lord of MathOct 9, 201715 votes

I feel you. The lack of itemization is saddening. item 3151 should be split into two items because flat pen on an antitank item is just bad synergy. Mages just need to be able to apply grievous wounds. I think that a few changes would give us a mage meta.

SweedishGunnerOct 9, 20171 votes

It's not bad synergy, Mpen is just good all around.

We do need another Mpen item though. Maybe a 100AP one.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 9, 20172 votes

I think high numbers and penetration need to be separate things. Having a lot of damage that is then further multiplied by penetration on a single item creates another must-have item. It's one thing if it's an item designed for late-game multiplier item, that can only really be used well in late-game (such as Rabadon's, which only does anything when you have a lot of AP to multiply), but when it's an item that can reliably be bought as a first item...

ThryaleOct 9, 20172 votes

mages have morello's for GW, and personally, I think GW is way too easy to apply in the first place. The real problem is life steal is too strong and needs to be nerfed. GW is far more punishing for champs that actually enjoy healing than it is for champs that buy life steal

Lord of MathOct 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

mages have morello's for GW, and personally, I think GW is way too easy to apply in the first place. The real problem is life steal is too strong and needs to be nerfed. GW is far more punishing for champs that actually enjoy healing than it is for champs that buy life steal

I meant more that grievous wounds should affect lifesteal more than normal healing.

ThryaleOct 10, 20171 votes

I think the problem is the game doesn't differentiate between self healing, other healing, and lifesteal, and treats them all the same.

And if lifesteal is so much an ission (like it currently is) that you absolutely need GW to even the odds. Doesn't that simply mean LS is over tuned and needs to be addressed rather than adding and/or buffing a mechanic that punished all forms of healing regardless of the fact that only one source is problematic?

Honestly, I think if riot just removed GW and did a balance pass on all heals in the game and simply slashed the amount of healing you get from LS by at least 30% (or more) the game would be in a better spot all around.

TBH it's kinda sickening seeing an ADC be able to heal to full after killing just 2 or 3 minions, yet Mages got almost all of their spell vamp either gutted or removed entirely despite SV being extremely lack luster to begin with, even on champs that could utilize it well like vlad.

Lord of MathOct 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think the problem is the game doesn't differentiate between self healing, other healing, and lifesteal, and treats them all the same.

And if lifesteal is so much an ission (like it currently is) that you absolutely need GW to even the odds. Doesn't that simply mean LS is over tuned and needs to be addressed rather than adding and/or buffing a mechanic that punished all forms of healing regardless of the fact that only one source is problematic?

Honestly, I think if riot just removed GW and did a balance pass on all heals in the game and simply slashed the amount of healing you get from LS by at least 30% (or more) the game would be in a better spot all around.

TBH it's kinda sickening seeing an ADC be able to heal to full after killing just 2 or 3 minions, yet Mages got almost all of their spell vamp either gutted or removed entirely despite SV being extremely lack luster to begin with, even on champs that could utilize it well like vlad. Can't they just change the way that lifesteal stacks? Like manipulatively instead of additively?

ThryaleOct 10, 20172 votes

because most of the time, they only get 1 lifesteal item, 2 tops it's just that 20% of an 900dmg crit is 180hp, which is about 10% of that champs max hp

also, yer comment is trapped inside yer quote

RiotNot SurrenderingOct 10, 201714 votes

Liandries was made to solve a specific problem (warmogs rushing tanks with no MR) and as such is a pretty brittle design, though it can be changed to solve an itemisation problem. Problems to solve there would be finding a new home for the flat pen that isn't abused by manaless assassins (the health is currently a damage tax).

Infinite SaughtOct 10, 20176 votes

Then give AP Manaless Assassins a better item that isn't a shitty version of Duskblade (in comparison); aka Gunblade. That, or just rework how Gunblade works, or even give us another dual item to offset the loss of Gunblade to only two champions. I don't know, just do something. Luden's isn't even viable on Katarina anymore despite the massive amounts of magic damage she does; instead she just goes straight to Haunting Guise cause it's just too good.

Note: I'm assuming there's only two manaless AP (implied when he said liandry's) assassins; Akali and Katarina.

ThryaleOct 10, 20171 votes

the problem here tho, is that manaless assassins are also suffering atm, as their actual item pool is horribly shallow, and with all of the MR options available, all mages sorely need mana pen just so that they can do their jobs.

I know you guys say that "exploding in 2 seconds isn't 'fun'" but you also need to understand that that is exaclty what ADC's are doing right now to anything that isn't a tank. 2 crits is enough to basically kill anyone that doesn't build a fair chunk of hp/armor and an ADC can churn out 2-3 attacks in 2 seconds. And ADC's and ad assassins have access to far more armor pen options than ap mages and ap assassins do atm.

ModThe DjinnOct 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ss2A9iv,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-10-10T02:36:16.976+0000)

Liandries was made to solve a specific problem (warmogs rushing tanks with no MR) and as such is a pretty brittle design, though it can be changed to solve an itemisation problem. Problems to solve there would be finding a new home for the flat pen that isn't abused by manaless assassins (the health is currently a damage tax).

Couldn't that mechanic be easily ported onto a mana-heavy item then?

Perhaps something based on Tear of the Goddess, where your flat penetration builds the more it's stacked, which would further discourage early investment by assassins. Something like 10 flat penetration, increasing by 1 for every 50 stacks, for example.

Or a Morello's competitor that lets you decide between shutting down healing or improved burst damage. Lost Chapter could definitely support another item that builds out if it.

Raid Boss MordeOct 10, 20171 votes

No no, they better not turn Liandries into another mana item. We already lost Abyssal Scepter, we don't need to lose anymore items. Manaless champions need items too

ModThe DjinnOct 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ss2A9iv,comment-id=0000000200020000,timestamp=2017-10-10T04:04:45.431+0000)

No no, they better not turn Liandries into another mana item. We already lost Abyssal Scepter, we don't need to lose anymore items. Manaless champions need items too

Manaless champions do need items, yes. I'm not suggesting to make that change entirely in a vacuum, but I will point out that there are only two manaless champions that really have a use for Liandry's -- Vladimir and Rumble. I feel that those could could easily be compensated during a larger-scale AP item adjustment.

Raid Boss MordeOct 10, 20171 votes

Vladimir, Rumble, and ahem, Mordekaiser. All 3 kind of get screwed by the current AP itemization because everything favors AP champions with mana.

InfernapeOct 10, 20171 votes

Kennen gets use out of Liandry's as well.

taleofsonataOct 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ss2A9iv,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-10-10T02:36:16.976+0000)

Liandries was made to solve a specific problem (warmogs rushing tanks with no MR) and as such is a pretty brittle design, though it can be changed to solve an itemisation problem. Problems to solve there would be finding a new home for the flat pen that isn't abused by manaless assassins (the health is currently a damage tax).

Warmog is an item to regen after big teamfights or skirmish, making Liandry's purpose pretty obsolete.

Latex ChokerOct 10, 20171 votes

I believe with runes reforged coming up and removing that innate 8-15 magic pen that every mid has for free this is a perfect time to rework Haunting Guise + Liandries, not too different from the way The Brutalizer had to be split up once armor pen was made healthier.

Rough idea is thus: Haunting Guise is reworked to build out of 2 Amp tomes, total price unchanged. Now Grants 40 AP + 15 Magic Pen. Removing the HP since Liandries is becoming it's own thing and we don't want 4000 HP Brands running around that built all the HP + AP items at once.

Liandries no longer builds out of Haunting Guise, instead reworked into a dedicated anti-tank item with HP + AP (Think AP version of The Black Cleaver in terms of stat spread, High HP, medium AP)

Haunting Guise now builds into a new item: One that grants medium AP but HUGE flat Pen. Magic Pen between Haunting Guise and it's upgrade cannot be stacked. Idea is to let you buy back that lost penetration at the cost of raw AP (Think 60-80 AP but grants 30 Magic Pen), meaning it's gated behind a complete item that is otherwise slot inefficient.

Could maybe give Haunting Guise a second upgrade path that grants more raw AP but doesn't improve upon the magic pen, but that's getting a bit too deep for just some late night spitballing. Either way, this is definitely something I'd like to explore further in depth, maybe as it's own post with some more refined ideas, but the general direction I hope is clear.

SonicÐeHedgedawgOct 10, 20171 votes

Could make it a CDR item with no mana so that they can't go Morello's without wasting CDR (or, they CAN... but only if they ALSO don't get a veil, a protobelt OR a zhonya's)

Good item build would be either item 1058 + item 3108 or item 3136 +

the latter makes more sense because of the flat pen already being on it, but..... is HP really needed?

DISHONORABLE XDOct 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ss2A9iv,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-10-10T02:36:16.976+0000)

Liandries was made to solve a specific problem (warmogs rushing tanks with no MR) and as such is a pretty brittle design, though it can be changed to solve an itemisation problem. Problems to solve there would be finding a new home for the flat pen that isn't abused by manaless assassins (the health is currently a damage tax).

BUFF RYLAIS , REDUCE RABADON GOLD COST .

thank you

The Yetii RiderOct 10, 20171 votes

Isn't flat penetration SUPPOSED to be an assassin stat though? Seems weird that you give it to AD assassins but not AP assassins.

BârdOct 10, 20171 votes

Think of it this way.

Pen works well with high base damages. That burn is a pretty damn high amount of base damage (2-4% current HP burn per second).

If you can proc the burn often, focus on sustained damage, and/or have high base damage, the item is nice.

It has quite a few champions who buy it, if situationally,and it fills a nice little niche. It doesn't need a rework.

TalinisOct 9, 201714 votes

AP itemization is in a horrible spot because Riot keeps nerfing the items and is quickening the pace of the games, allowing ADCS to be strong at almost all points of the game in comparison to mages. It used to be mages would spike earlier and were mid game relevant while ADCS needed to pile to late game. Now ADCS spike at 2 items while mages are left needing to usually finish 4 to dish out some real damage and games pace are too quick in order for mages to have much of any time to shine.

Horribly overnerfing items: Zhonyas (we here at riot are nerfing zhonyas because every mage takes it (meanwhile absolutely no alternative defensive item for the entirely of all AP besides archangel while AD have several, this was before banshee)) was nerfed from 120 AP 50 armor and 90 second active to 70 AP, 45 armor, 120 second active with only 10% cdr as compensation (meanwhile still the absolute only defensive item toward AD and just so happens to counter burst damage more (so against AP as it screws their combo) than sustain) is just 1 example. Rylai's is another (while when an AD item is OP, oh just remove 5 AD), when an AP item is overpowered it's, let's remove 25 AP, 200 health and half the passive on it.

It used to be that end game mage builds of over 1k were regular. Now it's 800 if you are building for it. Still really no magic pen besides void and sorc boots that can be countered by a simple mercs, meaning if enemy takes a few magic items and survives your burst (since that's all they have to do since you have CDS) GG. Just very poor designs by riot and something they need to fix.

ThryaleOct 9, 20171 votes

wow, I've been gone for about a year now and just came back recently. I wondered why I felt so weak when playing my favorite mages recently.

DevölutionOct 9, 20177 votes

Can u fucking stop with those topics ? Mages are fine,ADCs are incredibly busted,so are supports.

WoonStruckOct 9, 201723 votes

He said "unsatisfying" not "weak"

ThryaleOct 9, 20175 votes

exactly. while often "unsatisfying" and "weak" can usually be found hand in hand. one does not necessitate the other.

DurzakaOct 9, 20176 votes

Back in season 4 and 5 I could shut down fed adcs even if I am 1 item behind them.

I dont disagree AP itemization feels like garbage.

But in what world should someone who is potentially down 3k gold be able to easily deal with the fed player by themselves?

ProvengreilOct 9, 20179 votes

if that one item isn't item 3139 , why not? cc from a bush, burst to 0 works whether the enemy has 1 infinity edge or 5.

xJLx MCHammerOct 9, 20175 votes

That's mostly because over the last few years, -AP ratios have been nerfed on champions -AP has been lowered from items -most AD items have been buffed

AirKingNeoOct 9, 20172 votes

AP ratios haven't been nerfed.

CDR has been massively increased.

azrolatorOct 9, 20173 votes

You can get a massive amount of AP. Mages don't do it so much anymore because they have an absolute ton of CDR/HPs/Defense items they can buy that still give them AP and make them much harder to kill and lower their windows for poking. You can pick up tear and RoA for big AP stats. These limit your damage earlier on, so mages buy amazing stuff like morello's first. But the AP is there, and besides those 2 items, almost everything you buy in your stat path is giving you more AP and often cdr as well. Hardly bad itemization.

Dorans PantsOct 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You can get a massive amount of AP. Mages don't do it so much anymore because they have an absolute ton of CDR/HPs/Defense items they can buy that still give them AP and make them much harder to kill and lower their windows for poking. You can pick up tear and RoA for big AP stats. These limit your damage earlier on, so mages buy amazing stuff like morello's first. But the AP is there, and besides those 2 items, almost everything you buy in your stat path is giving you more AP and often cdr as well. Hardly bad itemization.

Having a unviable choice is practically the same as having no choice at all. You said urself that lowering your power curve early on with tear RoA is not an option for most champs, so why do you say high ap builds would be there, presenting them as real alternatives, when they are clearly not. let´s take a look at these "options" for high ap builds.

tear takes way too long to stack and you buy it more for mana sustain than for ap
(100+ Ap but shit, and only 3 champs can make use of it)

RoA is in the same boat, but if you play a battlemage you will probably have to buy it regardless. (100 Ap and a bit less shit, since u get a lot of stats like hp)

deathcap´s costs are too high and the buildpath is horrible
(100+ but you will never get to build this thing)

Luden´s is too gold inefficient. You only build it if you care about burst and nothing else.
(100 + extra dmg doesn´t provide any other stats)

Morello´s is busted as fuck and core on anything. why this item has 100ap like RoA is beyond me (100 Ap good stats, good passives, nice buildpath, helpful in the early game. I wonder why this item is so much better than the others.

so from the 5 big Ap items, one is actually good and the rest is below 100ap ( atleast hourglass still has a good active )

great itemisation

you could argue that with the amount of cd currently available it´s not necessary to have that much ap, but u said that there is plenty of ap around, which is just a big fat lie. Maybe if you are fed as fuck you can go ahead and build a deathcap, but it´s not your regular choice in a serious game.

azrolatorOct 10, 20171 votes

The only lie is the one you are telling about what I said.

You said urself that lowering your power curve early on with tear RoA is not an option for most champs

But I never did say that. I said that you limit your early damage for big damage later on. Yes, there is plenty of AP around. And it is an option. You choose to go for less AP so you can invest in cdr and defense and passives, then cry you don't have enough AP. Buy it. If you don't, either you are stupid, or there are so many great mage items, you don't even feel like you need to max out your damage. Either way, you are full of shit.

Edit: FYI, you cry about shit not giving AP then say Seraphrim is crap compared to ROA. The staff gives you more AP. It combines with Morello and ROA to give you mad AP, and death cap on top. You still have room for void, ditch the boots and get ludens and you have over 800 ap with initial extra burst of nearly 200. You said only one isn't below 100 AP. RoA, staff, deathcap, morello, all 100 AP or above. Morello and deathcap are the only 2 you need more than 2 base items to build out of. Anyway, like I said, full of shit.

AirKingNeoOct 9, 20172 votes

I came here to laugh. Read top comment and I'm already laughing.

Zhonyas, the core AP item is 'bad'. Really, it's hilarious.

TeralisanOct 9, 20175 votes

that it is core while being so bad kind of explains everything though.

AirKingNeoOct 9, 20171 votes

But it isn't bad.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 9, 20174 votes

Uh yeah it is. Riot butchered it when all the AD lovers complained too much.

AirKingNeoOct 9, 20172 votes

Built on every AP champion

Strongest active in the game

High elo literally laughing at boards for thinking it needs buffs.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 10, 20174 votes

No, I think it's just you.

Hundreds of people complain about it. It needs buffs, period.

AirKingNeoOct 10, 20172 votes

Hundreds? It's about 50.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 10, 20172 votes

Look on the boards. Then counting all the people who don't even complain on the boards, it amounts to hundreds.

MarshbouyOct 9, 20172 votes

When I play ap mages, I only really feel satisfied when the game reaches 45+ minutes (full build) as it finally looks like I am doing damage.

IDK what game you're playing but I feel like I'm doing damage at 1 item.

DISHONORABLE XDOct 10, 20172 votes

BUFF RYLAIS please

Lit CornOct 9, 20171 votes

[deleted]

DuskDaUmbreonOct 9, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lit Corn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ss2A9iv,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-10-09T12:05:04.485+0000)

. What&#039;s really weird is a full ap build is more expensive than a full adc build yet it doesn&#039;t scale as well. Back in season 4 and 5 I could shut down fed adcs even if I am 1 item behind them.

You're not meant to be able to shut down someone fed that easily.

And it costs more for a full build, and doesn't scale as well, true. But it is effective far earlier than an ADC build. Marksmen simply cannot do anything until 2+ items in. Mages spike with one item. So while you may need more to hit full build, and may not scale quite as well, you start being able to do things well before them.

KynamiOct 9, 20171 votes

Not always true... granted with the soon arriving removal of lethality on runes some picks are going to lose some early power.

But Miss Fortune has had a long relationship with spiking very hard off an early lethality item in lane. Because when you can Q2 somebody for ~75% of their health bar in the laning phase... hello lane control.

Also, while Quinn is technically a marksman in the client but is more of a top laner... again. Lethality. Not all the rADCs absolutely require 2+ items to royally chunk somebody in a trade.

ThryaleOct 9, 20173 votes

well, "marksman" simply means you rely on auto attacks for the majority of your damage output. Like teemo. He's a "marksman" but is usually best played top.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 9, 20171 votes

Counting lethality building marksmen as ADCs is like counting Teemo as an ADC. It just isn't what it actually is.

I specifically said ADC builds, then said marksmen afterwards, because they're effectively synonymous. A marksman using lethality is less a marksman and more an AD burst mage.

Lit CornOct 11, 20171 votes

i entirely agree tho thats exactly what i said in my comment but it apparently bugged i took that from the post and wanted to do a comment on it but some sh*t must have happened and i just end up with this ; ill delete the comment tho , probably just buged