The balance and design teams loves to get cute and cause tons of collateral damage in the process

TotalJerk··87 votes·16,000 views

This seems to basically be the root of all of the problems people have with the balance team. Every time you guys are presented with an extremely simple problem that can be directly addressed, instead of doing that you guys try to go full Apple and remove the metaphorical goddamn headphone jack because you wanna take a needlessly "brave" and/or "innovative" approach to everything. When the community is thirsty, instead of giving us the glass of water we asked for, you guys would rather use cloud seeding and then tell us to go outside and catch rainwater with our mouths in a few weeks.

When there's something problematic in the game like a certain skill, rune, or item being overpowered in the game, I feel like you have some misguided arrogance that makes you exhaust all other options before taking the most obvious approach. This is where the "nerf the champion, then nerf the item, then never revert the champion" meme comes from.

And then we have shit like some of the most recent hated reworks, runes, and new champions. You just can't just reinvent the wheel. You have to reinvent the wheel, the axle, the motor, and the bearings. Then you have hastily chuck all of that unnecessary work into a single abomination because tuning is the boring part.

The most recent issue I have is the Sion nerfs. His E is obnoxious, oppressive, and blatantly overpowered. So instead of not making it scale so hard or decreasing the efficacy of spamming it, Riot decided to nerf his Q at lower ranks with the theory that it would encourage consideration towards maxing Q instead, indirectly hitting an already niche AD Sion hard in the process. I'm betting right now that this will only just make Sion E maxers more passive and reliant on E, since they can't also get more aggressive with Q. Targeting a champion's weaknesses instead of their toxic strengths often just leads to them avoiding those weaknesses even more and leaning more heavily on those toxic strengths. Sooner or later I'm almost certain E is going to get nerfed for reals, and this Q nerf wont be reverted or readdressed.

38 Comments

FrostQueensPlane39 votes

It's called ego. The live design team really do think that league's success has literally anything to do with their work, hence all those masturbation posts on reddit after every tiny thing they do asking for an AMA, like they can provide a single ounce of insight on anything at all in this world when in reality they're just a few lucky IT bums who got hired by a company that quite frankly experienced such rapid success that deep down they really are still indie and have absolutely no idea wtf is going on even now.

SephAgro9 votes

reddit is a cesspool of fanboys and riot bootlickers

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

is it worse than a cesspool of low elo players and crybabies (aka the boards) ??

Keevalroy3 votes

Wait, I'm an IT bum! Why haven't I been hir...oh, I'm not a spineless yes-man. Nevermind.

Cowgirl Ed4 votes

yes they're a bunch of clowns at this point is pretty much confirmed

bring back morello LUL

Jinzo Torrance33 votes

Exactly, they did the same to Malzahar. They said they didn't want Malz to play like a Flash Ult champion but that's just to what they reduced him to, he can't do shit early levels because all of his damage has been gated behind him using 1/3 of his mana pool and his opponent not kiting/killing Voidlings. Why try to trade and look for an all-in when all of your damage is all short-ranged and comes off over 12 seconds (only if you hit your Q and your opponents doesn't kill your Voidlings in time) when you can just braindead perma shove and go bot to Flash Ult the ADC?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Unless they rework him, Malz can't be anything other than a flash ult champ when "balanced".

Drugoth23 votes

This actually reminds me of how Ornn was handled too. Everybody and their mother was saying Ornns damage was too damn high (it really was) but the balance team decided to remove unstoppable from his W for some reason when they didn't have to.

It's really kind of odd how they approach conceivably easy to identify problems and even easier to determine solutions to said problems with roundabout changes that don't target the actual issue...

UpDownLeftRightAB7 votes

They don't play league of legends. At least not with the rest of the population, I mean seriously, look up any balance members account, most havn't played in 2 months.

Drugoth4 votes

I mean maybe they don't play on their Rioter accounts, but that doesn't account for any personal private accounts they may have.

Death by Glamour16 votes

There is also the issue with them knee jerking and rushing through changes that fail to solve the problem and in some cases cause more problems, new thornmail and conqueror for example

Teridax683 votes

That's fair, but I think there can still be a happy medium where, after due analysis, one can choose an effective path that also aims to address the issue as directly as possible. This is something that can be seen with Heroes of the Storm's balancing, where the patch notes are crystal-clear in explaining exactly what they're changing and why, with specific references to win and pick rates on heroes, talent choices, player feedback, etc. If an effect is dealing too much damage, that damage gets nerfed and that's the end of it. If a champion's playstyle is off the mark, their base stats are addressed first and foremost if it's a general problem, and doing so tends to readjust them exactly where they need to be.

One of the disadvantages League has as well, though, is that its balancing environment is very messy, since changing just one parameter can have unintended repercussions across many more factors. This is why nerfing items tends to spell disaster for a few unlucky champions each time, because items are used by multiple champions, and not all of those champions receive the compensation they need afterwards. Even just changing a base stat can impact kit scalings that rely on said stat, as well as scalings with the champion's typical items and runes. As such, while I still think there are more direct ways to address certain problem, Riot doesn't really have the easiest environment to work with, since everything they touch interacts with layers upon layers of delicate and interconnected systems.

AwesomeGuyDj14 votes

"bruisers are weak" add conqueror which isnt good on every bruiser and just ends up getting abused by other fighters rather than addressing other problems "sion is to strong" nerf his q which just encourages E max more wait holy shit they actually NERFED GALIO ULT THIS PATCH WHATA?T??AT?

HeimerLmao5 votes

Also:

  • Camille release when you could see on pbe what is happening. -Zoe. -Galio Q buff. -LB not getting a revert up until now. -Zoe. -Adc 2k17 lul. -Everyone but adc 2k18 lul. -Ardent Censer. -Heimer nerf (actually, that's propably only me, since he is my most played champ). -Oneshot Zoe Q. -Bullshit rng Zoe W. -Trap mechanic on Zoe e. -ZOE.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

{quoted}

"bruisers are weak" add conqueror which isnt good on every bruiser and just ends up getting abused by other fighters rather than addressing other problems

What ??? Conqueror totaly adressed bruiser issue... at least for laning phase. Top main issue (unless impact) was to be unable to snowball/kill Tanks.

Vekkna9 votes

Their M.O. is to nerf all the way around the most toxic part of a champ's kit, then they rework the entire thing.

SephAgro9 votes

Their balance team is not agile in the slightest. They undertake loopy roundabout ways trying to dial their "knobs" and "controls" to work around problems instead of JUST FUCKING ADDRESS THE SPECIFIC PROBLEM

Recon12125 votes

When I saw that Sion nerf I had to take a double take. I counld not for the life of me understand what they were doing. In their description they talk about how the E was the problem and then they changed Q. I was like, "did i miss read that?" "So E is the problem, nerf Q... Riot?"

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

Hitting Q makes E max a bigger tradeoff. If you want all of the good parts of E by maxing it, then you are sacrificing a ton of Q damage early game to get it. His E was busted af before they fixed the hitbox, but now it's fine for the most part. Sion is still strong right now, but he doesn't need big ass nerfs to put him in the gutter. It is usually better to amplify a champions weakness to give opponents more room to abuse it rather than hitting what they are good at and what makes them fun. This is usually the better way to go, but if a champions strength is completely aids to play against and overbearing, then their strength should be toned down. Pre bugfix Sion E is a good example of toning down a strength because it was aids to play against and too strong. His current E max strength is not overbearing or aids to play against so it doesn't need to be nerfed atm.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn] good luck reasoning them.

3TWarrior1 votes

or, you know, if one part of the kit is effective enough to need nerfs, why not nerf that part so that the strong part of their kit does not become the objectively better part to use and allows players to choose and diversify their play patterns?

or if the champion is too weak for that, perhaps base health or stat growth can be altered to give the opponents a stat checking option

Puppet33r4 votes

Don't forget the janna "nerfs" on pbe.

ShiniXII4 votes

#firethelivedesignteam #hashinshinwasright

Carnicore3 votes

Most of the suggestions I see on the Boards or Reddit are honestly just awful. Like hooooooly shit you guys would be fired in a day if you were on the balance team.

T4underbolt11 votes

Nothing can be worse than changes that were made up till now by riot balance team.

Carnicore2 votes

The Boards prove you wrong every day.

T4underbolt3 votes

not really. just recently i saw so good changes made by players that would fix the game.

Carnicore1 votes

I haven't.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

then open your eyes?

ninjaroxas9 votes

Oh you most be such an expert on game balance then

Carnicore1 votes

[deleted]

Solutate6 votes

No. You're just arguing just to argue, get out of here.

Shekelberg3 votes

They could've just made his E not damage champions and given him a compensation buff somewhere that actually fits so that the giant undead juggernaut doesn't play as a poke mage in lane. Unfortunately that would make sense.

Ultîma2 votes

As someone who plays a lot of top lane, Sion avoiding any changes on his E makes me want to gouge my eyes out. He's extremely safe in lane because of it, and I can't help but feel Sion's E was never intended to be the crux of his laning pattern. The guy is a war-ravaged titan back from the dead. Every part of his kit, his Q, W, R scream "I want to dive in and deal a bunch of damage", but his actual laning is more "sit back and throw minions at them mindlessly forever or until I can one-shot them". It completely goes against the fantasy Sion is supposed to fulfill, and doesn't address why he's currently an oppressive problem in the top lane.

Bern1 votes

Pretty sure this is intended to nerf his obnoxiously good waveclear -- which is still great even if he's not maxing q -- and Riot probably hopes this will relegate him to the top lane and keep him away from mid because he'll have poorer wave control maxing E.

Toru Itai1 votes

Yeah! Revert the Sion rework!

RocketRelm1 votes

They just needed to change E from Mana: 35/40/45/50/55 to Mana: 40/50/60/70/80

And that'd incentivize him not to max it. The mana increase isn't much of a nerf when not a first-max, so it disproportionately impacts E max sion.

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