Fioras new Passive AND ult deal %MaxHP True Damage

Drunken Yasuo··70 votes·21,943 views

"Duelist's Dance (Passive)

Fiora identifies Vitals on nearby enemy champions. Fiora will reveal a new Vital afte striking the last one, or after 15 seconds. When Fiora strikes a Vital, she deals 3 (+X)% of the target's maximum health in true damage,[...]

Grand Challenge (R)

Fiora reveals all four Vitals on the target champion, each dealing 12 (+X)% of the target's maximum health in true damage, [...]

i would rather lose 50% of my health against the old fiora and build armor so i only lose 20% than getting 48% of my max health in true damage and cant do shit.

EDIT: It also gives 4,5% more per 100 Total AD she has, that means with 400 AD she deals 21% Max HP True Damage with each Vital She hits. nice one

190 Comments

RiotRiot Stashu124 votes

We believe that though %HP true damage can cause frustration, there is a time and place for that mechanic, and there are two primary reasons why we decided to go with it in this case:

First, we want Fiora to win and loses fights by skill, not stats. Accordingly, no one can mitigate her passive damage, but anyone can avoid it entirely through skillful play. When Fiora loses, it's because her opponent outplayed her through clever footwork and proper use of their CC's or re-positioning abilities.

Second, the Grand Duelist takes on all opponents, and %HP true damage allows her to threaten bulkier ones without having an unfair advantage against the more fragile. If it dealt %HP physical damage instead, the number would have to be much larger to scratch through a tank's armor, and that same number would mean instant death to unarmored opponents.

Though it may seem like the opposite, the mechanic actually protects many targets from the more dangerous alternatives -- and though there are no macro countermeasures (like building armor), there is theoretically rich micro counterplay (don't let her hit it). So while this still may cause some frustration, I hope this at least explains why it's on the kit!

Drunken Yasuo14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0lhluurM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-07-21T22:53:37.903+0000)

We believe that though %HP true damage can cause frustration, there is a time and place for that mechanic, and there are two primary reasons why we decided to go with it in this case:

First, we want Fiora to win and loses fights by skill, not stats. Accordingly, no one can mitigate her passive damage, but anyone can avoid it entirely through skillful play. When Fiora loses, it's because her opponent outplayed her through clever footwork and proper use of their CC's or re-positioning abilities.

Second, the Grand Duelist takes on all opponents, and %HP true damage allows her to threaten bulkier ones without having an unfair advantage against the more fragile. If it dealt %HP physical damage instead, the number would have to be much larger to scratch through a tank's armor, and that same number would mean instant death to unarmored opponents.

Though it may seem like the opposite, the mechanic actually protects many targets from the more dangerous alternatives -- and though there are no macro countermeasures (like building armor), there is theoretically rich micro counterplay (don't let her hit it). So while this still may cause some frustration, I hope this at least explains why it's on the kit!

well fuck me then give her Physical damage and not true damage so i can build against it

IcyPepper22 votes

so you basically ignored everything he just said

Hard Penetrator10 votes

There are good ideas and bad ones. Max%hp as true dmg is a bad one. I kinda understand its inconsistent but most skills can be countered with skill and build. Having only one option to counter feels too punishing if you will be even slightly behind in lane.

Jarvan had 10%max hp as magic dmg and it was pretty overpowered. Imagine him hitting for true dmg even once in a while.

IcyPepper5 votes

From what I'm seeing here, %hp true damage seems to have some trade-off, as it's intended to hit tanks harder than squishies (because squishies won't build as many defenses, so a larger scaling %hp of magical/physical will hit them harder).

But.

I'm just...

Isn't Fiora supposed to be an assassin? She's supposed to hit squishies harder than tanks. I'm just confused.

Mirage Seraph8 votes

I mean, I don't play Fiora (... yet) but it seems like they're trying to remove the assassin part of her character entirely. For better or for worse, it seems to be the case. And honestly, being an assassin really doesn't fit her theme of Grand Duelist if you ask me. Building Hydra, hitting R and 100-0'ing somebody without any chance of counter attack isn't a duel, much less a grand duel.

IcyPepper4 votes

I suppose you may be right there.

She doesn't seem like a bruiser, however... so I guess that makes her a true fighter at the very least.

Building Hydra, hitting R and 100-0'ing somebody without any chance of counter attack isn't a duel, much less a grand duel.

Well said, honestly. Well said.

darkdill7 votes

The point is that they don't want her to end up in a state where she can't hurt you unless you outmaneuver her. Plus if it's physical, she becomes useless against armor-tanks like Rammus and Malphite, but too strong against Champions who can't build armor.

The counterplay to her passive is to outmaneuver her and prevent her from hitting the appropriate side.

SH Azykan47 votes

No idea why this was downvoted (Maybe cause it is Stashu and boards have a weird hate for you now...) (Edit: hey it is now positive, was at -4 when I posted this comment lol)

It is absolutely a perfect response as to why it is, and a good explanation to follow up.

I am curious about the Ult's healing area though. It seems strangely out of place in her theme over say just giving a brief CD reset (can be used again within X seconds if pulled off successfully). Kind of a "Who's next"...fitting her title Grand Duelist. It also would give her a better personal reward for pulling it off (she is selfish) and while yeah it could be a little pub stompy in lower elo...if someone is able to actually do it in lower elo multiple times, they could probably accomplish similar playing a champion like Katarina anyways.

Jeddy01748 votes

Maybe cause it is Stashu and boards have a weird hate for you now...)

I think that has something to do with his last set of posts being about how he would continue work on Cassiopeia.Then he goes & disappear for 7 months.Now he's back & working on another champion without saying a word about Cass.This would obviously rub Cass players who were dissatisfied with her rework the wrong way.

Hawkefire3 votes

Disagreed, %max health period should allow her to threaten bulky targets, making it true damage actually tends to make it overwhelming because it takes away any form of opportunity to itemize against it and removes that critical aspect of counterplay.

If they made it %max health physical damage (or magic) then she will still do lots of damage to squishy targets and a pretty decent amount to tankier ones as well without being overwhelming and generally toxic to face.

Loken Stoneheart8 votes

{quoted}

Disagreed, %max health period should allow her to threaten bulky targets, making it true damage actually tends to make it overwhelming because it takes away any form of opportunity to itemize against it and removes that critical aspect of counterplay.

If they made it %max health physical damage (or magic) then she will still do lots of damage to squishy targets and a pretty decent amount to tankier ones as well without being overwhelming and generally toxic to face.

Tankier ones build armor, ignore the %HP if phys. Number must be larger to hurt them. Larger number hurts targets who don't build armor even more than true damage, because they... well. Won't be building armor.

AbodyHUN6664 votes

There is an explanation for her ult's heal. She calls out her opponent for a grand duel, and everyone is watching her while fighting their opponents. If she wins, it gives vigor and morale to her team to keep fighting. I like this idea a lot, because she is no longer the greedy splitpusher who is hated by both teams.

FalconPawwwwnch33 votes

This logic makes no sense

Vayne's true damage is unavoidable yet it's been in the game for over 4 years now

Come up with a better excuse for defending this obscenely broken mechanic please

SouL1ess6 votes

Why didn't you dodge her autoattacks while fighting back as a melee/similarly ranged ADC (or 500-range Lotion)? L2P noob :^)

(Also Vayne W has a base damage to go with the percentile max HP damage. Pretty bonkers TBH.)

darkdill7 votes

Vayne's issues are that she can't deal with multiple threats, has shorter range than other ADCs (both her AA range and Condemn range are 525), and can't build tanky because of her need for AS and damage stats. Yes, Vayne can turn invisible, but at pro level that isn't super reliable for survival.

Drunken Yasuo11 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's issues are that she can't deal with multiple threats, has shorter range than other ADCs (both her AA range and Condemn range are 525), and can't build tanky because of her need for AS and damage stats. Yes, Vayne can turn invisible, but at pro level that isn't super reliable for survival.

you spelled 550 wrong

darkdill3 votes

My mistake, I thought Vayne had less range.

Feathermane5 votes

He gave you the justification. Every other mechanic hurts squishies more than tanks.

darkdill19 votes

Have you thought about how you are going to avoid making Tank Fiora too strong then? She wouldn't have to build damage at all if she can just tank damage and spend all the time she wants positioning for that true damage.

Also...

First, we want Fiora to win and loses fights by skill, not stats. Accordingly, no one can mitigate her passive damage, but anyone can avoid it entirely through skillful play. When Fiora loses, it's because her opponent outplayed her through clever footwork and proper use of their CC's or re-positioning abilities.

Wrong. Shield-users are the only ones who can quasi-mitigate that kind of damage, simply because shields (unless I'm mistaken) don't count toward your maximum health.

Sire Hippington4 votes

her passive/ult damage is nearly all in the ad-ratio. it's only 3% maxhealth per passive proc base, which means the ult has 12% total(up to 4 procs for 3%) Right now, i feel like the scaleing is a bit to high, and the base to low, she feels rather weak early on, and later in the game she can take like 75% of a targets hp as truedamage if she procs passive+all 4 ults and goes for alot ad.

HowPlayGAEM20 votes

[deleted]

ULTRAF0RCE2 votes

well soraka can silence her preventing her from using abilities, and zyra has a pretty good root

Shadow Gilgamesh8 votes

But tanks GAVE UP damage to GET those stats, so regardless of wanting a champ to feel skillful, it's extremely poor design to just ignore the complexity that itemization is SUPPOSED to bring to the game.

Ramuhdo17 votes

there is theoretically rich micro counterplay (don't let her hit it)

What if you're Garen? Literally can't do anything to stop her from hitting your weak spot aside from running away or outright killing her, but Fiora's Q and speed boost will help her keep pace. What micro counterplay can we employ if we assume our champion does not have dashes or blinks?

RiotRiot Stashu38 votes

Yeah, it's not equally rich across all champions. Fortunately, champions without high mobility spells or immobilizing cc's often have the damage to beat Fiora if she tries to straight up fight them, Garen included. If Fiora is spending time moving between Vitals while fighting Garen in melee range, I expect that his basic combo should be sufficiently punishing to her.

This is not a catch-all answer, but most champions have some action they can take against Fiora, whether through dodging, stunning, or dumping damage when she exposes herself to risk. She will have particularly favorable matchups against certain champions, but that's a part of champion-to-champion interaction in League. Of course, it becomes a problem when Fiora has VERY binary matchups, and to your point, this is something we'll be on the lookout for.

RiotRiot Stashu29 votes

Basically: When Garen recognizes that Fiora is going to come in for an open Vital, he can ready his Q/E to punish her.

Fiora's Q range and passive haste might be strong enough such that they invalidate this play, but that's not the intention, and we can tune these things down to compensate.

Nefas29 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0lhluurM,comment-id=0009000700000000,timestamp=2015-07-21T23:32:25.111+0000)

Basically: When Garen recognizes that Fiora is going to come in for an open Vital, he can ready his Q/E to punish her.

Fiora's Q range and passive haste might be strong enough such that they invalidate this play, but that's not the intention, and we can tune these things down to compensate.

And what happens when people get to be very familiar with her passive mechanic, which may take time, but once mastered has no cool down?~~(at least per what we can see in the tooltip) ~~EDIT: Can see through the video that it has no cooldown. They build her tanks because they don't need to build damage because you gave her a %max health true damage ability without cool down? Once she is ontop if you, hitting your vitals will allow her to snowball and keep hitting vitals and if she is tanky and just relying on true damage and skill as you put it, there's basically nothing you can do?

Durzaka10 votes

once mastered, the cooldown will be the positioning. If you are constantly able to get to the correct side of your opponent without them stopping you, the damage is your reward. If you cant, you get nothing.

Nefas6 votes

And if she takes ghost? Or (assuming Riot wants her to build pure damage) she gets a phantom dancer? What then? Once you are on top of them, you can simply walk through them (and do so quickly, thanks to her speed boost) to get the next vital. And the next vital. And the next vital. That's not skill.

What if she is building tanky where she can simply walk to the side and take the hits and walk to the next and heal through it via her passive heal with likely a BotRK and spirit visage? That's not particularly 'skill' either that's just sustain.

Kuroi862 votes

Ghost will be limited help. Phantom Dancer requires you to survive long enough to purchase the item. As a tank she simply won't have the CC to really make it, she can only stun when CC is used against her and her ms passive will only work so long against a kiting ADC.

Vellich0r10 votes

The %Max health true damage plus the capability for cc (two different cc abilities by my count) and her own move speed boost in addition to a dash and free crits could make her a very good CDR tank a la Ekko.

Ser Garland4 votes

Yeah, you give one champion true damage, you need to give every champion true damage.

Hellioning4 votes

Yeah, that silence is gonna do so much against the champion that relies on autoattacks. That's assuming, of course, she can't bait out the silence with her W.

WarWork4 votes

But Garen unless fed cant out burst fiora :/

KirynDawn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0lhluurM,comment-id=0009000700000000,timestamp=2015-07-21T23:32:25.111+0000)

Basically: When Garen recognizes that Fiora is going to come in for an open Vital, he can ready his Q/E to punish her.

Fiora's Q range and passive haste might be strong enough such that they invalidate this play, but that's not the intention, and we can tune these things down to compensate.

Wouldn't she just parry the silence?

Focus Teemo6 votes

{quoted}

What if you're Garen? Literally can't do anything to stop her from hitting your weak spot aside from running away or outright killing her, but Fiora's Q and speed boost will help her keep pace. What micro counterplay can we employ if we assume our champion does not have dashes or blinks?

THANK YOU. They evidently forget not everyone is horribly overloaded like Riven or Ekko.

Hellioning4 votes

Do you want another Darius? Another champion that is basically 'Hope you never have to be in their range.'?

Darius is the single most binary champion in league, I find. Are you melee without some sort of disengage? The counterplay is 'never be within range' which means get pushed to turret and hope the jungler ganks the worst lane to gank. Are you ranged or can easily disengage on him? Just don't be stupid and you're fine.

Fiora can completely run roughshod over most melee champions without long-lasting CC, but she's mostly powerless against ranged champions, especially anyone particularly good at kiting (Ashe, Kayle, KALISTA...)

This will just encourage Fiora players to build her like a bruiser. Build one damage item (probably Bork, but maybe IE considering her E) and then build full tank and coast on your base damage. Do you want that? I don't think so.

Nefas3 votes

Well said...I would be definitely be planning on basically applying my Trundle build to her. Rush BotRK and then tank stats. Probably spirit visage first because of her heals. I'd bet she will very likely be a tank buster like Trundle though it is accomplished in a different way.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0lhluurM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-07-21T22:53:37.903+0000)

We believe that though %HP true damage can cause frustration, there is a time and place for that mechanic, and there are two primary reasons why we decided to go with it in this case:

First, we want Fiora to win and loses fights by skill, not stats. Accordingly, no one can mitigate her passive damage, but anyone can avoid it entirely through skillful play. When Fiora loses, it's because her opponent outplayed her through clever footwork and proper use of their CC's or re-positioning abilities.

Second, the Grand Duelist takes on all opponents, and %HP true damage allows her to threaten bulkier ones without having an unfair advantage against the more fragile. If it dealt %HP physical damage instead, the number would have to be much larger to scratch through a tank's armor, and that same number would mean instant death to unarmored opponents.

Though it may seem like the opposite, the mechanic actually protects many targets from the more dangerous alternatives -- and though there are no macro countermeasures (like building armor), there is theoretically rich micro counterplay (don't let her hit it). So while this still may cause some frustration, I hope this at least explains why it's on the kit!

And what about champions who don't HAVE cc or repositioning abilities, like Olaf or Garen or Dr. Mundo? Most top laners are pretty immobile, the only reason you can fight ranged harassers and lane bullies at all is because you can build tank.

Castanean1 votes

I see the logic in that. However. (There's always a "but" in there somewhere.)

Tanks don't have the damage to deal with Fiora to begin with. Fiora, essentially, will be more likely to kill a tank than a squishy because... A tank can't really fight back. A BRUISER can, an ADC can (provided they manage to survive Fiora's basic attacks of course,) But a tank... Can just kinda sit there and take it. There are, obviously, exceptions to this like say, Sejuani whom is based around consistent damage, Amumu with his constant damage and MR Shred and Volibear with his health-scaling execute.

A tank will have to do one of three things;

  1. Wait Fiora's damage out until an ally can come save them,
  2. Run away with their tail between their legs or,
  3. Attempt to fight Fiora and lose to the lifesteal Fiora is inevitably going to build, even if she doesn't get to hit the vitals even once. The passive is just insult to injury in this case, really.

I'll be perfectly honest though. Even as someone who used to main tanks (and still plays lots of them,) I'm looking forwards to Fiora's update! It looks like a very fun kit to play with!

I Miss Cannon3 votes

She deletes squishies when she hit a weak spot and E'd and that's pretty easy considering a skillful Fiora which uses her W right is immune to (self-)peel. I laugh at people in this thread who say she's easy to kite, people who didn't play her on the PBE should just stop making wrong conclusions. I've seen so many "just don't get hit in a weak spot" here it's not even funny anymore. I'm like, guys do you realize her Q autotargets weak spots and her ult marks all sides of the target as weak spot....

Mishli3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0lhluurM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-07-21T22:53:37.903+0000)

Though it may seem like the opposite, the mechanic actually protects many targets from the more dangerous alternatives -- and though there are no macro countermeasures (like building armor), there is theoretically rich micro counterplay (don't let her hit it). So while this still may cause some frustration, I hope this at least explains why it's on the kit!

it does explain, but imo i feel like it's going to have the opposite effect. I don't have a pbe account, so can't try it myself, but I see this very quickly getting abused. Why build damage when you have guaranteed damage against everything? Assuming they are high enough, I see a lot of fioras simply building straight tank and killing everyone with her free damage. No "skillful" play possible if her opponents don't have a dash of some kind and no skill needed from fiora if she can build full tank and take her time hitting every single weak point.

MrButtermancer11 votes

This kind of justification makes me... uncomfortable. I've seen it more places than just here too. It seems that we are leaning towards the outcome of a fight being decided more and more by what happens in the actual ten seconds or so of engagement rather than the positioning and resource expenditure of the previous thirty seconds, or the items bought five minutes ago. Justifications like "counterplay" are used to rationalize more power in kits and less on items, or skillshots rather than targeted damage. Resources have become less important with many manaless champions seeing play, and even mana users tend to forget about the resource after an item or two.

The problem here is that tactics is being emphasized more than strategy. MOBAs as a genre appeal differently than say FPS games in that you have persistent power that can dramatically change over the course of a game. One or more players can "carry" the team to victory, and both the successes and failures revolving around carries make the game more interesting. If that's gone, it's easy to feel powerless to make up for a struggling team. Shut-down gold, for instance, becomes less meaningful when items like armor are less powerful.

When we emphasize tactics, twitch reflex and teamwork become more important than individual performance and anticipation. It's like we've forgotten that it's both frustrating and fun to win or lose by fighting or becoming the player that carries the game. It's like we've forgotten that buying a Banshee's Veil to block that Annie nuke is arguably purer counterplay than sidestepping a Veigar's Baleful Strike. By allowing counterplay in anticipation the game becomes more cerebral. Encounters aren't won or lost by a tenth of a second swing.

As it is, it feels like the game is leaning towards something that might be very tense and entertaining to watch, but is not that much fun to play. League was fun because it wasn't like a twitch shooter. That's less true now. "Skill, not stats," is a worrisome philosophy when stats tend to be determined by things that absolutely should matter, such as anticipatory counterplay (buying items) and past performance (how well you've performed so far in a given game).

And come to think of it, aren't squishy champions supposed to take more damage? If there's a problem where a skill has to either deal too much damage to squishies or too little to tanks, shouldn't we be looking at the balance between squishies and tanks rather than trying to cook questionable damage calculations into skills like this?

PKnowledge4 votes

"Skill, not stats," is a worrisome philosophy when stats tend to be determined by things that absolutely should matter, such as anticipatory counterplay (buying items) and past performance (how well you've performed so far in a given game).

This. And pretty much everything you said. Really accurate analysis.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

but why % MAX health true damage? why not % CURRENT health true damage or % MISSING health true damage. I get that you want her to be able to duel tanks, but the combination of % max health true damage makes it always deadly giving fiora no moments of weakness. I'm high health or low health, it doens't matter Fiora will really screw me up. If it were % Missing health true damage then at least i know i'm safe until i get poked down. If it were % current health true damage then i know at least she will have a harder time finishing me off and i can press my luck by staying. See the choices those give over % max health true damage?

Spitemaster3 votes

The issue with this is that it's actually stronger against tanks than against squishy targets, especially with Riposte. Tanks generally have cc (but that can now be parried). Essentially, by building more damage an ADC stands a better chance against Fiora, but a tank shouldn't build more damage - they have no way to prevent her from killing them just as fast. With 75% armour pen physical damage, it would at least allow the tank to defend a little bit against her.

Vayne has the same problem - the only response a tank can have to her is Randuins/Frozen Heart. Against a heavy AP team, that means that the tank has to build one of two items that only help against a single champion on the enemy team. Yes, Frozen Heart helps against Azir and Randuins helps with its slow. Any other champion can build damage and hope to burst her down, but a tank literally has no other recourse.

Percent max health true damage disproportionately punishes tanks. This is not an issue with Vayne (Well, I still think it is, but I main Leona) as she is supposed to bust tanks. On the other hand, the goal is Fiora is to make her capable of fighting anyone with relatively equal ease. In order to do this, it would actually be better to give her 75% (or so) armour pen on her Vital Strikes, so that tanks are capable of fighting her but still have items available to buy which they can build to help fight her.

iChelpilz20 votes

and i thought vayne was toxic lol

TheFirstGokun7 votes

You can't dodge Vayne. And she's ranged. Fiora needs to run around you or Q to hit those Vitals, so there's actual counterplay.

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