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Quinn toes the line between too many classes to function reliably as any particular one

Valor Bot··11 votes·947 views

http://i.imgur.com/7vZ073j.jpg

  • She's a ranged, AD damage dealer with powerful basic attack steroids as well as a built-in crit passive, but lacks the effective range, target-agnostic mobility and/or late game power curve to function reliably as a Marksman

  • She's a mobile roamer and has strong target access as well as high burst damage, but lacks the in-combat escape tool necessary to serve as a formidable Assassin

  • She can deal with tanks if itemized for it, and has the mobility/crowd control necessary to force a priority target out of a fight, but has no way of thriving in sustained combat, mitigating damage or shredding through super-tanks like a Skirmisher or Diver

With all those things considered, what function is Quinn supposed to serve in a team, exactly? Her ideal position is in a lane where tanks are best suited to go, jungle Quinn is subpar at best, and taking her mid removes the magic damage-dealer from the team. Bot lane is just as problematic because it does not synergize with her early game 1v1/lane bullying capabilities and puts her at a disadvantage come Level 6 due to her non-combat ultimate.

Quinn is a really fun and interesting character but I feel she's doomed to be subpar at everything unless Riot finally decides to push her in a more well-defined direction -- be that Marksman, Assassin, Diver, or Skirmisher.

23 Comments

DJ Hatsune Miku5 votes

I think that's sort of her point. She's an early game bully that transitions into a mid game roamer/skirmisher before finally falling off. She's not a particularly amazing late game carry because of her range and relatively all in nature. Due to her status as a marksman with high mobility she is actually excellent at giving your team an advantage and then using her gold advantage to quickly push lanes and, when the enemy team answers her, she zips off to another lane to keep them on their toes. She's a very independent character, something I feel suits her lore quite nicely. I don't think she was ever intended to be a bottom lane carry.

Valor Bot1 votes

Yeah, I don't have an issue with Quinn being an early game champion that falls off. One of my favorite aspects about the character is that she's so independent. My issue with Quinn is that she's not really attractive as anything but a roaming damage-dealer.

  • She can't be a good Marksman, because Marksmen need an ample effective range and threatening late game to do their jobs.

  • She can't be a good Assassin, because Assassins need escape tools in their kit to ensure they're not just living suicide bombs.

  • She can't be a good Skirmisher, because Skirmishers need active defense mechanisms and ways to shred through tanks in their kit outside of just itemization.

  • She can't be a Diver, because Divers need at least moderate tankiness/durability, which Quinn lacks.

In essence, I think Quinn's versatility is actually doing her more harm than good. I'd really like to see Riot focus her kit a bit more to suit a particular class -- this means she'd have more clearly-defined strengths and weaknesses and could finally become an attractive pick with a solid place in a team comp rather than just being that one champion who's "ok" everywhere.

Just to be clear, this doesn't mean I want Quinn reworked into a bot lane Marksman. I think part of what makes her so interesting is her Skirmisher/Assassin-like playstyle. If Riot ever gives her another significant set of changes, I'd want them to push her more in this direction.

DJ Hatsune Miku3 votes

Your points about assassins and divers both hinge on the champ you're describing being melee I believe. She doesn't dive, necessarily, because she doesn't need to when she can attack at range. She can completely ignore melee supports/tanks by just shooting past them. The same goes for Skirmisher, since she can just kite around and her kit can add the damage needed to deal with anyone not rushing Randuin's/Thornmail. Her defense, durability, and means of escape are all tied into the fact her basic attack range is 525.

If she was melee with her kit I'd absolutely agree but we can't forget she's ranged. In a lot of ways she's similar to Vayne, who no one would question has the ability to hunt down a target and kill em. Instead of stealth Quinn has nearsight. Instead of Condemn she has Vault. Her "Silver bolts" is harrier. Taking it from that approach these descriptors make a lot of sense since both are definitely not late game teamfight monsters (Vayne can just destroy frontlines but isn't particularly good in 5v5s that aren't built around her imo) but have great dueling potential. Their curves are just inverted.

Irelia Bot3 votes

How's it going Valor Bot.

Valor Bot3 votes

You know, I still have the screenshot from when we first met :')

http://i.imgur.com/GNm789d.png

Irelia Bot1 votes

So... have you been nagging Quinn Bot?

Valor Bot1 votes

Just a little bit

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I tend to agree with DJ Hatsune Miku. I see your point, but I'm not sure she actually needs to fit into one of those classes at all.

She should be best when she is split pushing, and she can access the backline of a fight for wombo combo as part of a teamfight comp. When you look at her kit that way, she makes sense.

If you wanted her to be one of those things, you're right. She isn't. But I don't know why she needs to be that. I don't agree that she's versatile though. I think she's pretty shoehorned into a solo split-push style. As you said, she can't really excel at anything else. That's not the same thing as being versatile.

Valor Bot2 votes

You're right, she doesn't necessarily need to belong to any one particular class or subclass to be a successful champion. Along with Quinn, there are quite a few other characters who break the mold and lack a definitive category -- Graves, Fiddlesticks, Kennen, Nidalee, and Azir, to name a few. I would like to point out though that, due to the nature of their kits, many of them have historically found much more success in both solo queue and competitive play than Quinn. Some of them have also been the most problematic to balance. That's not to say all "Unique Playstyle" champions are bound to be either unhealthy or OP, but I think there's at least a good reason they've all been headaches, likely because they aren't bound to the traditional strength/weakness paradigms of other classes.

I guess the main reason I'd like for Quinn to be moved away from "Unique Playstyles" and into a more focused role is because she fits the Assassin class far more than any other, not only in gameplay but in her thematics/story and even her VO. I'm sure others will disagree with me here, and have their own vision for the champion -- but since development, Quinn's been a very Assassin-esque character who uses her speed to dive in, burst someone, and get out. Due to the Marksman-like qualities on her kit though such as the attack speed steroid on her W and 525 range, it makes it very hard to give her the tools necessary for that role because she lacks the sufficient power budget.

Aside from that, I think Quinn has some general health issues as a champion that have gone unresolved for quite a while, though fixing those doesn't necessarily entail forcing her into any one particular category, certainly.

By 'versatility' I simply meant the flexibility of her lane positions and multitude of strengths and weaknesses she has from several different classes/subclasses (speed and burst of an assassin, range/AA steroids of a marksman, CC/all-in of a diver, etc.)

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Fair enough. I'll bite on the assassin bit there. First of all, I think you're right that she's typically been played as an assassin (especially pre-rework). Assassins, though, have changed since then, and so has Quinn.

I have huge concerns about a ranged AD assassin at all, because I think stacking AD on a champ that can auto attack from a distance will be precarious from a balance standpoint. So if Riot was going to turn her into an assassin, what do you think they could do to keep her from being unfair? Because right now, that would involve using ult, then using vault from a distance to proc ult, vault, and then auto a couple of times to get huge burst out, and after that she has ranged autos to follow up.

That pattern, imo, would have to change for her to be a healthy assassin. Do you see a way to do that without killing her identity?

Valor Bot2 votes

I have huge concerns about a ranged AD assassin at all, because I think stacking AD on a champ that can auto attack from a distance will be precarious from a balance standpoint. So if Riot was going to turn her into an assassin, what do you think they could do to keep her from being unfair? Because right now, that would involve using ult, then using vault from a distance to proc ult, vault, and then auto a couple of times to get huge burst out, and after that she has ranged autos to follow up.

Ideally, if Riot ever decided to make Quinn an Assassin then I think decreasing her range would be the natural first step towards making her fairer to play against, while also freeing up some power budget in her kit to allow for more Assassin-like qualities. This means either decreasing it by just a few units (to about 400-500 range or so) or flat out making her melee.

Yes, there is the argument that removing Quinn's range would destroy her identity, but in my (humble) view, I don't agree that it's essential to her character, and think she could make a lot of sense as a melee also, both thematically and gameplay-wise. Of course, it would be somewhat of an ambitious change, but Riot has proven with all their past reworks that nothing is ever too sacred to be removed from League if there's a better and more satisfying option (just look at how different Graves is now after his rework, or Sion, or Galio).

If decreasing her range isn't enough, I'd have her Vault modified to work like a skillshot, so that she can dash in any direction she pleases, but stops at the first enemy champion or large monster she collides with before knocking them up and dashing back. That'd make Quinn a lot more mechanically demanding and less binary to play against than she currently is, I feel.

Also, Assassins don't generally make use of attack speed, so the attack speed steroid on her W passive could go or be replaced by something else if appropriate.

That pattern, imo, would have to change for her to be a healthy assassin. Do you see a way to do that without killing her identity?

It all boils down to what's truly core to Quinn's gameplay, and what we consider her in-game "identity" to be. There's bound to be disagreements on that front, but I'll tell you my thoughts on what makes Quinn, Quinn:

Core Gameplay Trinity

  • High mobility (good chase and escape potential; at least moderate roaming potential)

  • Physical/AD burst damage (should be somewhere between Skirmisher and Assassin levels of burst)

  • Vision utility (anything from AoE reveals to single-target truesight)

Core Thematic Trinity

  • Falconer (works in tandem with Valor for most if not all of her abilities; feels like playing both a human and bird of prey simultaneously)

  • Ranger (can span large distances or close gaps quickly; prefers solitary ambushes to large-scale teamfighting; is independent and can hold her own against enemies)

  • Scout (possesses modes of reconnaissance such as vision reveals and camouflage)

Everything else, in my view, is on the line in terms of a full-scale rework, because it isn't really core to Quinn in the long run. I love the knockback on her E, the omnipresence that her ult brings, the nearsight on her Q. Ultimately though I think I'd trade all those things for a more effective, well-rounded and thematically cohesive version of the champion.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

A well-thought out reply, indeed. I'd give you my upvote, but you already had it for making a well-written thread to begin with. XD

I'd love to see these changes implemented. If you don't think Quinn's identity needs a ranged auto, then I don't, either. And a skillshot on Vault is really smart. Adds counterplay and gives more power budget to her for a higher skill ceiling. I like it.

Valor Bot2 votes

Thanks for your support, Kempyrean <3

cardomajig242 votes

Because she's a design faliure. Her early game was way too oppressive and had to be nerfed, literally throwing a single rotation and pushing you out of lane unless you were Swain or a decent Darius that could time his pulls, it was hilarious Riot even left her in the game like that, permabanned her til the nerfs. She's now an okay assasin, that builds crit, but doesn't utilize it as well as other marksmen. She needs a rewok like all these archaic champions that were developed from an idea rather than an actual plan, examples are-Tryndamere Pantheon Annie and yes, you're gonna hate me for it but let's be honest, you can't dodge or outplay a point and click %max health true damage passive with other abilities focused mainly on self buffs Vayne. They can all be beat, they've all got very defined powerspikes that can be easily played around, does it make them any more healthy? Fuck no. This game released awhile ago and there's still many different changes that need to happen, and all we can do is wait for them to happen.

Paroe2 votes

Quinns role is that of a diver. She has engage, she has an assassination pattern, but she doesnt have an escape. She is one of two diver marksman currently in the game who are effective in any degree.

Valor Bot1 votes

I agree; however, I'd say her high burst damage and powerful target access put her a bit more firmly in the Assassin space, though the two classes are extremely similar to each other, so.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0kAJIQZQ,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-06-17T04:25:24.695+0000)

I agree; however, I'd say her high burst damage and powerful target access put her a bit more firmly in the Assassin space, though the two classes are extremely similar to each other, so.

Assassins actually have a get-in-get out. Mobility in AND out. THats the difference between assassins and divers; Divers have mobility one way and assassins have it both.

Valor Bot1 votes

I understand, but the lack of an escape tool isn't the only thing separating Divers from Assassins. Otherwise, Divers would just be strictly weaker versions of Assassins.

No, generally speaking Divers are a bit more durable than Assassins, sometimes even sporting ways to actively mitigate damage in combat such as Pantheon's block or Camille's AD shield. They make up for this strength not only by lacking a way out of a fight but also by having less powerful target access than Assassins, meaning they have a harder time closing the gap or focusing their damage onto a specific enemy of choice. A good example of this is Camille, whose E can be body-blocked -- overall she just has a rougher time jumping onto priority targets unless her ult is up. Compare this to Zed or Katarina, who can just click to appear on top of their enemies of choice at a much more frequent rate than Camille.

Divers don't usually rely on spells as much as Assassins do either, which gives them the luxury of powerful point-and-click damage through auto attacks (i.e. Xin Zhao, Camille, Wukong).

It's for these reasons that I'd say Quinn's more of an Assassin than a Diver, since broadly speaking she isn't a very durable champion, but offers high target access with her E and more burst damage than your standard Diver. A lot of her damage comes from abilities also; if she doesn't apply those Harrier marks, her AAs are not powerful enough to kill a healthy target, unlike say Xin or Jarvan.

That isn't to say I don't see the argument for Quinn being a Diver. I can definitely see it and she does have some degree of AA reliance due to her passive and W, admittedly. Overall it's a toss up, which is why I suspect she no longer belongs to any one class or subclass under Riot's new system.

Elkington VI1 votes

Quinn needs some form of in-fight mitigation and/or something that rewards her for building some defense. With how her kit works, she'll never function as an adc, so her crit passive doesn't really make sense (given how/where she plays and scales, she shouldn't have to build any crit whatsoever). If she's not blowing someone up near instantly than she's pretty much useless as a pick. She needs a safer way to deal damage and the easiest ways of achieving that are either...

  1. Giving her more reliable ways to mitigate/avoid burst and CC (preferably this one)
  2. Giving her %hp damage

Giving her either one would make her less binary and actually able to teamfight without being ahead, would also smooth out her build-pathing and give her some defensive options without sacrificing damage. I mean, there are commonly played champions that are WAY safer than Quinn, while also scaling harder into late game, so that's the least they could do for her. The crit passive should be replaced with something that rewards building a more reliable stat honestly. Crit builds have always been sub-par on her, as she doesn't scale well enough, or deal damage safely enough, to bother with such an investment.

Just Blame Jenny1 votes

I agree with Hatsune Miku, more or less.

But put another way, having a Quinn is almost like having a second jungler on your team. She's very macro-focused. Once she's attained her ultimate, she should be focused on getting the rest of her team head. Mid game, she's just going to split push, take objectives, and participate in the occasional skirmish.

Quinn isn't a team fighter. Sure, she can team fight and bring a fair bit of damage to the table, but her kit isn't ideal for it. She needs to dive to function most optimally, which is simply suicidal for her in most team fights (though it works fine in 1v1s and skirmishes).

However, this is intentional. She's not supposed to have all the tools to function as a great team fighter. She trades that for exceptional agency in the early-mid game to snowball a lead and pressure objectives. Late game, she falls off, as she should. She'd be broken if she didn't.

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

Her niche in the game is essentially the AD version of Lissandra. Her viability(do to her kit's limitations) is completely dependent on the fact that she counters the F*&k out of melee top laners early(quinn has a tiny bit more leeway in this regard do to her ult and ranged autos). I saw someone mention her being an early game champ, which on her own she is not. Same as liss she is an early game champ because early game is her window to bully top laners, before they out scale. If you take away their heavily favored(down right cancerous in quinns case) matchup, you are left with a champ that is mediocre(at best) at all points of the game.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

I say she's a skirmisher, because once you take Fiora out of the equation, you'll realize most skirmishers can't shred super tanks either. She's actually better than Yasuo, Riven, and Tryndamere because of her ability to kite - the other skirmishers are actually a lot worse at taking out tanks once you get to ~3 items (their early game threat level is higher though).

Quinn's ability to keep an 80% attack speed boost and 40% movespeed boost for up to 6 seconds is insane, and lets her do very well in a sustained fight through kiting.

She has 3 and a half ways of migitating damage, actually. The first is her range. It lets her deal with melees so much easier - a Fiora or Darius can't kill you if they can't stay on you. It also lets her position more effectively. The second is her movespeed. It helps so much with kiting, and also lets you dodge abilities easier. The third is Vault. It stops dashes, which often contain a large portion of a the average melee's damage, and it also repositions yourself ~525 units away. It can also be used to hop walls if positioned well. The fourth is Blinding Assault. Blinding assault is an amazing defensive spell, providing you can hit it, especially against ranged champions. If you hit a Blinding Assault on an enemy ADC, you will be able to literally kite them as you would a juggernaut (except with less room for error, think Darius, if they'll grab you). It stops mages from aiming accurately, and combined with 40% movespeed will cause many skillshots to miss. It also stops them from using targeted abilities on you. It stops melees from knowing what direction to walk in, and also makes any ranged damage or CC, whether a skillshot or targeted, much less useful. It also stops them from using a targeted gapcloser until it wears off, and makes a not targeted gapcloser easier to dodge.

JhonTeemon1 votes

explain to me how a male eagle can carry a full grown adult human female?

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