Give us tempoarily 10 bans until you fixed the shit you created with the juggernaut update and fiora

Drunken Yasuo·Sep 3, 2015·142 votes·5,404 views

5 new 55% winrate champ within 1 month... its getting ridicolous 6 bans arent enough for the shit you created

78 Comments

LegendmakerGXSep 3, 201538 votes

Agree, Riot balancing team is beyond horrible that the game is so broken with these OP champ that it is barely playable to go against them unless you have someone camping for you non stop.

Right now in my opinion Riot decision is beyond stupid that I even wonder who is in charge of approving these buff and changes.

HighH1Sep 3, 201536 votes

CertainlyT

Krys StarSep 3, 201523 votes

Ghostcrawler, the man who took World of Warcraft's balancing for a steep hill down.

ULTRA RAMOOSESep 3, 20151 votes

I left Akama PVP during season 7, they nerfed dk's so bad they were pretty much worthless at that point.

gubigubiSep 3, 20155 votes

God damn does world of warcraft have and has some of the most disgusting cringe worthy balance changes I have ever seen in a game. Lets hope that does not happen to league. I swear blizzard purposely made there game slowly shit to try and push people to play their other games.

ULTRA RAMOOSESep 7, 20151 votes

That would be the lead developer of this game's fault, ghost crawler ruined the game and then came here, guess what, he's doing the same thing here.

Welcome to the last of league's golden days....

Hatless CasualSep 3, 20156 votes

BIggest issue WoW has with PVP is all class balance is revolved around PVE and raiding.

Chespin2013Sep 5, 20151 votes

LOL you should see PVP right now there is almost no content this xpac and druids, warlocks, and frost mages are still op. Blizzard just forgotten about PVP and just wanna turn WOW into a facebook game with the garrison and the selfie app in the game despite people could just use screenshots instead.

ULTRA RAMOOSESep 3, 20159 votes

That would be ghost crawler, he's the guy that made these teams staffed full of his friends from the last game they took over and ruined, kinda like Japanese hornets.

What ghost crawler and friends are doing to rito's fanbase

BrascusSep 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

That would be ghost crawler, he's the guy that made these teams staffed full of his friends from the last game they took over and ruined, kinda like Japanese hornets.

What ghost crawler and friends are doing to rito's fanbase

That youtube vid is genuinely terrifying

PurodyuusaaSep 3, 201515 votes

I think doing something like this would cause a conflict in resource allocation (TM) when there are better places Riot can spend their time. It takes a frightening long amount of time to come up with high quality names for their recolor Chroma packs after all. On top of that, figuring out how to properly add in 2, 3, or 4 passives on a single champion and creating a level of broken that's just right is more of a science really. As long as it's cool enough, there won't be that many people complaining.

Besides, the balance team is hard at work prepping the game for Worlds which is arguably the most important part of League of Legends. Spectators look forward every year to see the ridiculous outplays of the chosen and enforced meta the B-team works hard to foster. With the recent nerfs to historically problem champions like Janna for example, I'm sure you as another statistical spectator will be thrilled at the epic Thresh plays and Lee Sin/Yasuo combos this year's showing will surely provide.

After all, you're suggesting in some way Riot admit to making a mistake and if memory serves, that's never happened before. Why should it happen now?

TheI3igDaddySep 3, 201511 votes

Stop playing the game until they fix it.

Perhaps a decline in players will make Riot truly understand.

JoquanSep 3, 20155 votes

The boards isn't big enough for that, don't waste your time.

TheI3igDaddySep 3, 20151 votes

You're right, it's not, but it's still good to persuade others to take breaks if they're incredibly frustrated. I haven't played ranked in a good bit and I've been feeling generally better.

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 3, 201511 votes

*55% win rate in lower-tier ranks.

Diamond +, Garen/Skarner become a non-factor and Darius is in like 10th place. Master tier, the only rework near the top is morde.

It's almost as if the highest tier of players easily adapt to a new strategy. Wanna know why I don't want these guys nerfed? Because the community won't learn a thing. I'm almost sure 90% of people are still picking the same stuff into guys like Darius, Skarner and Garen. Kiting seems to be such a foreign concept that people don't understand you can actually do it.

If Riot nerfs these guys, we're going back into the cycle we've had since S2. Release something that's strong. NOT OP, but strong, and then have the community cry about it until it gets nerfed and the old picks come back while everyone complains about the lack of diversity.

It happened with Zed. Darius. Naut. Sejuani. etc. Yet the community doesn't learn. You guys will keep crying for nerfs instead of adapting and then you'll make some long-ass post about how diversity is so small. Heads up: They just gave you a ton of diversity and strong picks.

It's been less than a month and already we're asking to completely gut this. SMH.

VekknaSep 3, 20155 votes

I'm so happy those 6,716 Master+ players are enjoying themselves. Meanwhile, the rest of the planet's 10,482,200 LoL players would rather Ekko-ulti IRL back to 5.14.

Balance the game for the 10 million ranked players on earth who don't enjoy being devourer-deleted or steamrolled by Garen who is literally the easiest, most idiot-proof champ in the entire game.

BiffoloSep 3, 20156 votes

No, you can't balance for the lowest common denominator in ANY game. You need to balance for the highest possible skillcap, because that's the way the game is meant to be played.

VekknaSep 3, 20154 votes

Professionals who make up .064% of the playerbase do not dictate how the game is "meant to be played." We don't all have to quit our jobs and play League 100 hours per week with a paid coach to play League "properly." What an idiotic notion.

It's even more idiotic when you consider these numbers from NA Summer LCS:

Champs picked 0 times: 25 Champs picked 1-5 times: 27

Gragas - a single champ - was played in more games than the bottom 75 champs combined.

My point is that if 60% of the champ pool is already essentially unplayable in LCS, and 20% of the champ pool is already literally not played in LCS, then it doesn't really matter whether Garen and Darius, et al are played in LCS.

It's perfectly fine for them to join the ranks of Nasus, Malzahar, Talon, Amumu, Lux, etc. who do quite well for the 10 million players using them in solo/duo without being total cancer.

TL;DR: If champs were actually balanced for LCS, you wouldn't have of them be essentially useless in LCS. Your premise is completely incorrect because statistics.

BiffoloSep 3, 20154 votes

The reason champs aren't used in lcs is because they try and find an awkward middle ground. Fighters balance for the highest skillcap, shooters do as well. Why should this be any different?

Just yesterday in battlefield 4, they game the revolvers slight nerfs even though the general perception of the community was they were crap anyways. They actually had some insane potential, with the ability to one shot in the head at pretty absurd ranges for a sidearm, hence they were nerfed, because some people could do it. That's proper balancing.

VekknaSep 3, 20152 votes

You're conflating balance and design. Your battlefield 4 example shows how poor design leads to poor balance. If skill floor is too high, most players do poorly with the champ/item. If the skill cap is too high, the top .06% of players do too well with it.

So if you nerf the damage of that item across the board, most players will do worse with the item. Some players who did alright with it will now do poorly. And only the top .06% of players will do well (just not be broken OP anymore).

And that's what we see with League, essentially. We have a few different categories to consider:

Too Low Skill Floor, Too Low Skill Cap: These are the champs who do very well in all brackets outside LCS but never see LCS play. Like Heimer, Malzahar, Talon, Blitz, Udyr, etc.
Too High Skill Floor, Too Low Skill Cap: These are the champs who are virtually unplayed all around, despite some decent stats from dedicated players. Like Zyra, Poppy, Fiddlesticks, Zilean, etc.
Too Low Skill Floor, Too High Skill Cap: This is where champs get near-universally good results and turn into holy terrors in the right hands. LIke Fizz, Vayne, Riven, Ahri, etc.
Too High Skill Floor, Too High Skill Cap: These are the champs that do badly in every bracket but get nerfed because of LCS to the point of unviability in most players' hands. LIke Evelynn, Azir, Kalista, Ryze, LeBlanc, Kassadin, etc.

The problem is that Riot "balances" by tweaking numbers far more than by changing actual mechanics. So right now, the skill floor on Annie and Garen, for example, is in the basement because their numbers are so high. Lowering their damage will increase their skill floor and bring them into balance without mechanical changes, but their low skill caps would probably keep them out of LCS.

But champs like Kalista, reducing her numbers also increases the skill floor on a champ with an already-high floor. So she becomes essentially unviable to a majority of players (not that I mind) to balance her in the LCS where her mechanics would still make her a contested pick.

Right now juggernauts are just overtuned to the point where there skill floor is so low that almost anyone can just go ham all game, lose lane, feed early, and still win. If the lower numbers keep them out of LCS, I'm fine with that. They'll have plenty of company with the 50% of champs that see negligible or zero play who do just fine for the 10M other players.

BiffoloSep 4, 20153 votes

How is that poor design? The people at the top are the only people capable of playing the game properly the way it was meant to be played. The best can fully flesh it out. Revolvers were arguably too strong at the highest level of play, (Where the game is being played properly), so they nerfed it. It's two different games between bronze and challenger, and you need to give more to the people who use all the games mechanics to it's fullest potential.

VekknaSep 4, 20151 votes

"...you need to give more to the people who use all the games mechanics to it's fullest potential."

Except this already isn't happening because 50%+ champs are either unviable or suboptimal in LCS. So Riot is already failing at balance on both ends. If that's already the case (and it's not changing), the enjoyment of 10M players should take priority over LCS.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

AnidanSep 4, 20153 votes

The middle ground negotiation has helped to result in this 50%+ champion unviability, mind you. High level play and low level play both suffer when Riot tries to balance for both low level play and high level play.

Now, the deal with which they should choose is: Which one of them is being actively paid to play this game? It sure as hell isn't the Bronze players, or us Unranked players. So, since professionals are being paid to play this game at its highest potential, or at least their highest potential, then the balance of the game should fall on.. Them.

Think about it: Nothing else really balances around amateur activity. They may facilitate and help it along to give it a decent start, but they don't balance around it. Fighting games don't balance around amateurs, they balance around the professionals. FPS games don't balance around amateurs, they balance around the professionals. RTS games don't balance around amateurs, they balance around the professionals. DotA doesn't balance around us amateurs, they balance around the professionals.

Why should League be any different? The other MOBAs don't even balance around amateur play, why should League? Many people want to have fun, as games are here for, and they can continue to do that with a game balanced around professional play (yes, you can still have ridiculous fun in DotA, for instance). Many other people want a good competitive game, which they'll get a much better fit for if the game competitive game in question is balanced around people who know what they're doing.

Riot's problem is that they try to cater to both at the same time when they should prioritize competitive play.

VekknaSep 4, 20151 votes

"Which one of them is being actively paid to play this game? It sure as hell isn't the Bronze players, or us Unranked players. So, since professionals are being paid to play this game at its highest potential, or at least their highest potential, then the balance of the game should fall on.. Them."

Just going to point out that this is fine if your business model centers around spectators instead of players. This isn't the NFL.

In a spectator game, your idea works in theory. But balancing around LCS in the actual game would leave the vast majority of players with an atrocious game experience and a viable champ pool in the shape of an upside-down pyramid.

In other words, Riot is not going to balance only for LCS because that would leave them with no game to balance. The current compromise isn't too awful, all things considered.

But the point is that it still matters not one iota if juggernauts are nerfed out of LCS to benefit overall game health. It makes zero sense that so many champs have (and will be) nerfed out of LCS for overall game health but the juggernauts should be untouchable only because they aren't problematic for pros.

BiffoloSep 4, 20153 votes

How does it make no sense? Most champs that do see major nerfs are due to being super strong in LCS. Many many many azir nerfs. Elise nerfs a while back. Lee sin nerfs. Most of the patches are for nerfing things. Also, neat little thing, riot dosen't WANT every champion to be viable at once. Someone did a video, don't remember who called "perfect imbalance". You should look into it sometime.

500 MinionsSep 3, 20159 votes

dota have 5 bans per team if i remember right... we should have the same. And there is nothing wrong with buffing, just we need to buff all the champions together.

AbrahamBaconhamSep 3, 20155 votes

This isn't Dota.

SunriseSkaterKidSep 3, 201515 votes

{quoted}

This isn't Dota.

but it should be. In dota as much as there are In Meta picks no one freaks out when you chose a character, most Dota players go "He might be really good at X champ." In league however people report you just for picking something they don't agree with because riot created champions that people have to play in order to be relevant in the game.

WarlockLawSep 3, 20152 votes

Difference being competitive dota has a far larger variety in the played hero pools than league has for champions. So yes dota doesn't really have "troll" picks

skillXSVSep 3, 20153 votes

In dota, there is "hard" counters to a severe degree. Champ A can 100% make champ B a non factor, it makes sense to have more bans.

mikemcpartySep 3, 20155 votes

But it should be? If you feel that way, then you should just go play Dota. Counters don't work the same in either game. HotS is different too. Every champ is viable for the most part.

SunriseSkaterKidSep 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But it should be? If you feel that way, then you should just go play Dota. Counters don't work the same in either game. HotS is different too. Every champ is viable for the most part.

Every champ in is viable in Dota or league? In league there are a plethora of champs that dont work in the meta. Or did u mean dota?

mikemcpartySep 5, 20151 votes

I meant every champ in Heroes of the Storm is viable.

SentineIsSep 3, 20154 votes

Ever heard of power creep? Yeah that's what can be wrong with buffing

500 MinionsSep 3, 20151 votes

If we buff everything together, then we won't have power creep.

The Sword SaintSep 3, 20152 votes

That is literally the definition of power creep.

SentineIsSep 3, 20151 votes

^ you beat me too it The Sword Saint lol. Happy someone understands basic game design.

The Sword SaintSep 3, 20152 votes

Thanks, as an aspiring game developer I would hope I knew this much :P

BlackSunNocturneSep 3, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=500 Minions,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0chfvRsN,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-03T03:42:58.099+0000)

dota have 5 bans per team if i remember right... we should have the same. And there is nothing wrong with buffing, just we need to buff all the champions together.

Every MOBA has 5 bans per team.

Except League.

It has to be the special snowflake and screwing over it's playerbase.

SeductiveGrandpaSep 3, 20155 votes

Let me fix this post up a tad:

Please let us stay with 6 bans as the champs I am talking about are not as bad as they seem, I just don't feel like dealing with them and Fiora is fun with her new minigame like passive, kinda like a Wario-Ware minigame.

5 reworked champs Fiora: 50% winrate Garen: 55% winrate Darius: 44% winrate Skarner: 65% winrate Mordekaiser: 56% (as an adc)

Skarner is getting ridiculous 6 bans are still enough for the shit you created though.

(Thats better, I knew you were over-reacting a tad but holy shit skarners win rate seems to be going crazy, hope that gets changed)

BiffoloSep 4, 20151 votes

That will be much lower once hotfix updates go through.

PiVoRxSep 3, 20154 votes

I like the "tempoarily" idea. Can we also "tempoarily" disable Riven until Riot do something with her?

My Waifu VanillaSep 3, 20153 votes

Or you can pick any of the reworked juggernauts and roll your face against her. Just a thought.

BeoridasSep 3, 20153 votes

i dont mind juggernaut but i sincerly uninstalled the game when i understood that sated junglers is crushing any role late game--while runeglaive crushes anyone mid game. just mega unfun. Tho fiora, GP is something else entirely.

ConturbatioSep 3, 20153 votes

The problem with Fiora is that her base HP & HP per level (2134 at lvl 18) is so high for the heals implemented in her kit.

On PBE it did get nerfed though, but that's not enough, her HP at lvl 18 is still above 2k (2015 to be accurate, yes the current year...) it should be reduced to something like 1985 at least by reducing her base HP down to 540 from 570. This should separate the good Fioras from the great Fioras. Currently her survival scenario goes like this: "Oh look, I survived that duel because of my high base HP & HP per lvl" When it's supposed to be something like: "Oh look, I survived that duel because I proc'ed my ult's heal + so many vitals"

Like that she should be fine.

TransgressorSep 3, 20152 votes

Fiora is now a problematic champion?! LOL fuck you, get good at the game and stop demanding for stuff to happen. Inadequacies should be overcomed with hard work. If you can't word hard even in a freaking video-game, that's your problem.

ÏdroSep 3, 20152 votes

Juggernauts may be unbalanced, okay, but i think that the real problem are the new items. those items can be build on fighters and tanks and are too strong. Also, goodjob on nerfing vayne, one of the few ADC that could eventually kill someone and survive a teamfight. Playing LoL has become frustrating if you are an ADC. Please, do something. I'm tired and i'm already looking for some different game, but i used to love LoL and i'd like to keep playing, but if it's not fun it's not a game... I think Riot has made its biggest mistake and should do something as soon as possible.

ErijianSep 3, 20152 votes

Their win rates are dropping; there's not any 55%+ champs currently. I guess Garen's really close to it, but I chose "ALL" which factors in his Bronze, Silver, and Gold Win Rates which are the main cause of him being so high as his WRs around those parts are 54-55% while his Plat and Diamond win rates are around 52-53%. Not seeing that big of an issue currently.

I'm saying Bronze-Gold WRs are sort of irrelevant because they suck at kiting or other in-game mechanics which can stop or delay Garen, so it makes sense why he works so well over there.

EDIT: Just realized you're from EUW; win rates probably differ over there.