Can we get rid of the spirit sword?

SettDownShutUp·Jun 12, 2017·23 votes·3,769 views

Look, 2016 was a trying time for everyone. Lots of people died, more than a few bad games came out, some horrible decisions were made and Riot was dabbling in 'Counter Play'.

I'm not a fan of the changes to Shen, but I can accept them. The ult nerf, adjustments to his Q damage (I'll always remember you slow moving point and click heal-knife.) Hell you even finally fixed the E.

But there is one thing I hate with a passion about Shen.

http://i.imgur.com/rhY732q.png

The spirit sword is nothing but a tacked on gimmick to overcomplicate an otherwise fine moveset. Can we just... forget it? Can we remove it, maybe have his W actually last 2 second and have a humane cooldown?

EDIT:

To clarify I don't mind the idea of Shen having a spirit sword, but the fact that it acts as a uninteresting tether right now is just dull and annoying.

65 Comments

SukishooJun 12, 20176 votes

I like the sword.

SettDownShutUpJun 12, 201711 votes

I respect your opinion of the mechanic.

ItsbeghdevJun 12, 20173 votes

As someone else who does personally enjoy the spirit blade mechanic (and didn't play League back when old Shen was around), I also respect that you consider it a lousy gimmick and honestly understand why.

Sp33d Zer0Jun 12, 20173 votes

I really like the spirit sword....

Subject 5Jun 12, 20173 votes

If you removed the swords Q then you're basically making Shen just another "I have an ult" champion like Fiddlesticks

With his Q, he can duel people which is nice. Why remove it?

EDIT.

Wait this guy literally only plays ARAM.

. . .

SettDownShutUpJun 12, 20178 votes

Ya-huh, though I would like to mention that Shen is already just another "I have an ult" champ. His ult warps the power budget of every other skill he has. Wouldn't have it any other way mind you, feels great when you step in to save your fiddles.

EuthenaasiaJun 12, 20173 votes

you should play a new game

SettDownShutUpJun 12, 201714 votes

You should do things unmentionable by the code of conduct of Riot Games.

MelledoneusJun 13, 20172 votes

At least "I have an ult" champions have ultimates that feel rewarding to use.

Riot dropped the ball by not buffing the base shield numbers and instead essentially nerfing it by giving you a mediocre shield AT BEST.

The shield feels useless for actually saving people who are in danger in most scenarios.

And A Real HieroJun 12, 20172 votes

Hes suggesting it should be changed, Shen's Q being reliant on the spirit sword is clunky and unreliable. Those are things that could be fixed, without completely getting rid of it.

QuephaJun 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Xdq8hjm,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-06-12T20:08:40.149+0000)

Shen's Q being reliant on the spirit sword is clunky and unreliable.

That's the point, champions need elements to their kit that are clunky and unreliable so there's a difference between players that know how to play the champion and players that just attack-move towards the enemy tower and wait for the game to end.

And A Real HieroJun 13, 20172 votes

If that were true, I would agree with you. But most champions don't have these anchors holding them back. If all the other champions get a clunkified skill in their bar it would be fine.

QuephaJun 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Xdq8hjm,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-13T19:40:21.911+0000)

But most champions don't have these anchors holding them back.

Name five champions who's entire kit consists of spells with zero delay or unreliability associated with them.

And A Real HieroJun 14, 20171 votes

There's plenty. Ahri Darius Fiora Jax LeeSin Velkoz

Sure they may have some delay, but not Shen levels of delay. Depending on where Shen's sword is it can take him a better part of a second to get his Ki barrier Shield and his on hit damage. Especially when missing Q is extremely punishing for Shen.

QuephaJun 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Xdq8hjm,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-14T05:25:17.386+0000)

Depends heavily on 2 dodge-able skillshots

Q is very slow and loads a ton of power into that sweet spot

Depends on semi-randomly spawning vitals which can be guarded by shoving them into walls, she depends on this mini-game way more than Shen does on his spirit sword.

Only sticking tool is his stun which has a delay

actually useless if he misses his Q

literally every ability is a skillshot

Serious question: Did you even try? Jax is your only submission that comes close to what I asked for, and his kit design is undeniably ancient.

And A Real HieroJun 14, 20171 votes

Serious answer, all of them are less punished than Shen for missing their skillshots. Don't pretend those champions have a tougher time in this game than Shen, because they don't. We're not arguing skillshots, we are arguing clunkyness and unreliability.

Even though Vel (one of my mains) uses exclusively skillshots, he can reliably blow stuff up when he hits either Q or E (sometimes just R is enough).

You know that Lee can reliably get in your face so he doesn't miss Q?

You know that Jax can auto and use his abilities during his counter attack? That he can save his jump for the last tick and reliably stun you that way? He can also reactivate counter attack to stun instantly.

Don't pretend Fiora has a hard time landing her passive.

Darius's Q is a slow windup skill, with counterplay but with a huge reward for hitting it. I wouldn't consider it clunky either. Especially since his apprehend is almost undodgeable once in range.

Ahri misses all her shit and its ok, she can kill most squishies with fox fires and R. If she can't she can dash away to safety. She literally is the epitome of a reliable safe pick.

QuephaJun 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Xdq8hjm,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-14T10:55:53.508+0000)

Serious answer, all of them are less punished than Shen for missing their skillshots.

What a monstrous lie.

SettDownShutUpJun 15, 20171 votes

I agree with unreliable, clunky not so much. A lot of counter-play comes out of risk and reward, unreliability allows them to add power and balance at the same time. Why blitzcrank is such a god damn adrenaline rush with every hooked teemo.

But I really disagree with the idea of using 'clunkiness' as a way of balancing a champion. Yes it works, but it's not satisfying for either party. I point to Cho'gath's Q as an example. Originally it had a delay to it that randomized, launching at any time between .5 to .7 seconds . It felt horrible because it made it either an easy dodge or impossible to miss. They've since changed it, and now it's set to .65,

The point I'm getting at is The Spirit Sword to me is very clunky, and an even worse offender than the example above. The delay of the sword chasing to meet you can mean Not receiving your W in time, or not even receiving your %health damage in time for your next AA after pressing the Q. This may be more a problem of the tether range being far too lax, but I'd be happier not having the damn totem pole at all.

QuephaJun 15, 20171 votes

But that delay adds so much subtlety to the cast. Shen needs to read his opponents' movements to know if they're walking into the line or if they're trying to bait it and juke out.

The delay isn't random like Cho's old Q (which I believe was random due to bad tech, not intentional design), it's something that can be predicted with experience playing Shen.

Wraith SennaJun 12, 20173 votes

"let's make shen boring and lame rito" is what i am hearing from you.[slayer-jinx-wink]

SettDownShutUpJun 12, 201711 votes

"Let remove bad gimmicks that add no meaningful gameplay" is what I'm saying.

The spirit sword could have been an interesting addition if actual development time had been given but it just doesn't mesh well to Shen as a whole. Shen's was more a half-rework, and it shows. Holy shit look at GALIO. A taunt, a knock-up, a better ult with defense AND damage capabilities and an AOE % health Magic damage Q, with actual decent AP scaling to boot.

RalanrJun 12, 20171 votes

So what? Bring back the uninteractive but workable vorbel blade?

SettDownShutUpJun 12, 20174 votes

Honestly? I'd love if that were to happen, but I don't think it'd be best for shen. I actually like the current Q, but I don't like it's dependency on the spirit sword to achieve best results. And actually I don't hate the idea of the Spirit blade itself. I hate that it's a floating stick in the middle of the field.

If shen's Q were to say, swing with his physical sword, then swing with the spiritual, then swing with both? That be kinda cool. What it would actually do is up in the air, maybe slow targets when they get spirit whacked?

RalanrJun 12, 20174 votes

The key point of the sword though is that it's meant to play around it and your positioning, adding some level of depth to Shen's kit.

From what i understand from your suggestion, it would just be an AA reset.

junglerboy16Jun 12, 20173 votes

I think his point is that the majority of the time, his current Q is already just an AA reset, but with an ineffective gimmick attached.

AwesomeGuyDjJun 13, 20172 votes

From what i understand, he wants the kit to be the same, its just not, oh your swords 2 seconds away? well have fun with that 2 second delay on your q and w.

MelledoneusJun 13, 20174 votes

Twilight Assault does not even provide an auto attack reset.

junglerboy16Jun 13, 20171 votes

Well people use it like it is, my mistake.

QuephaJun 13, 20171 votes

it's not an AA reset.

MelledoneusJun 13, 20172 votes

Maybe simplicity is better. The spirit sword doesn't add as much depth as you think since it cannot be interacted with until you pull it to you.

Orianna's ball is a better example of depth, since you control the ball's position freely and utilize that. Shen drags the sword around and not much else.

RalanrJun 13, 20171 votes

What's the counterplay to old Shen Q Mel?

MelledoneusJun 13, 20173 votes

Don't let him auto you when he throws it at you. Build some MR and beware his minions if he dashes onto you.

The ability had a pitiful base damage and never scaled with tank Shen. It was annoying to low sustain champions like Riven, who all-in or poke anyway so who cares.

QuephaJun 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

add no meaningful gameplay

why do you lie?

BlitzidiousJun 12, 20173 votes

I agree with you, they should remove the part where you drag it along with you. Instead making his Q throw out the blade, and reactivation pulling it back. Throwing it out gives you the empowered autos, hitting an enemy champion with the 'recall' gives you the bonus damage and slow.

Asayake 5150glowJun 12, 20172 votes

But then Q wouldn't do good damage.

And as someone who personally loves the lvl 2-3 cheese with Fervor of Battle, this would make me sad.

Although buffing W would have far different consequences than nerfing Q, because nerfing Q only (basically) nerfs his dueling, while buffing W makes him teamfighting a lot stronger. And then LCS will happen, and he will be gutted again.

SettDownShutUpJun 12, 20173 votes

You're right in that it would increase his teamfight capabilities. Though I always prefered Shen as a tank rather than a Bruiser. I'm biased in that regard.

RookPusherJun 12, 20172 votes

The sword is bothersome if only because I find it annoying that it tips people off to me being in the area. That's a big negative with no real upside. I'd be willing to tolerate if the slow you hit people with were substantial, but it's a short, weak slow and therefore I don't think it's worth it.

As for his ult warping his power budget, I don't get it. I love playing this guy so long as I'm with an ADC who has a clue. What's wrong with the rest of his kit. I do think the hit box on his taunt could be bigger, but I also think there's a conventional wisdom element to his "power." He's not that amazing, and if he was, there's a new LoL out there where Shen isn't a monster.

SEKAIJun 13, 20172 votes

The problem is that they didn't figure out a better way for the sword to move around other than it dragging itself like a literal dead weight even though it's technically 'ethereal'.

Make the sword "drop-able and retrieve-able" or something. The sword slowly drag itself and 2km behind Shen until he tabs Q to call it flying from half way across the map is just ugly to look at, not to mention unresponsive to use when you really need it (as an opener after traveling some distance on foot, for instance) because Shen's Q is literally "not there until it arrives" which is just dumb.

Fix that please, Riot.

Subject 5Jun 13, 20171 votes

The dude literally only plays ARAM, he's biased AF. He doesn't understand the concept of what positiioning is or why his Q even exists - he would willingly accept Shen being dumpstered with the removal of his Q just for a half a second longer time on his W. He would rather have his "Heal Me Dadddy Slap Stick" that was just a complete piece of shit than something that deals an incredible amount of damage to duel. Shen isn't just I have an ult champion anymore, why not play him in an actual game other than ARAM? Try a lane with him. Or the jungle. See how awful he would actually be without the percent health damage with a ramping up attack speed bonus plus a slow to compensate his immobility.

And A Real HieroJun 13, 20171 votes

Is he suggesting change based on ARAM? I don't see him mentioning that, so don't assume hes not thinking of Summoners Rift just because he plays ARAM.

Subject 5Jun 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Xdq8hjm,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2017-06-13T16:57:20.323+0000)

Is he suggesting change based on ARAM? I don't see him mentioning that, so don't assume hes not thinking of Summoners Rift just because he plays ARAM.

Look at his game history on OPGG or lolking. Or just use the client. He said on his account history on the boards that he isn't fit to speak about summoners rift because he doesn't play SR. I'm not assuming.

And A Real HieroJun 13, 20172 votes

I suggest you read what I said, who cares what he plays.

SettDownShutUpJun 15, 20171 votes

Hoo boy I can see this conversation went places.

Yes, I play only ARAM now. After they wrecked Mordekaiser, changed Shen and kicked Evelynn in the teeth AGAIN, I wasn't finding SR fun anymore. Then the League of Marksmen patch hit and I said "screw it".

With that out of the way, let's get stuff cleared up. Yes I liked the old Q, yes my nostalgia-goggles fit fine thank you. No, I do not think it's good for Shen. His current Q is 100% a step in a better direction. Except, for, the Spirit Sword. The big floating toothpick is what I have issue with because I feel it's a tacked on gimmick during a time when riot was obsessed with smashing new ideas into every champion remake. For better (Barrels for Gangplank) or worse (Skarner and his 'crystal spires').

The %health should definitely be kept, but the bonus damage/AS and the piss-poor slow should be added in other ways instead of the spirit sword. Maybe through successfully blocking with W? Maybe add the effect through a successful taunt. I'm honestly not sure how riot would add the situational power back in, but what I can tell you is what doesn't feel good.

Subject 5Jun 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hoo boy I can see this conversation went places.

Yes, I play only ARAM now. After they wrecked Mordekaiser, changed Shen and kicked Evelynn in the teeth AGAIN, I wasn't finding SR fun anymore. Then the League of Marksmen patch hit and I said "screw it".

With that out of the way, let's get stuff cleared up. Yes I liked the old Q, yes my nostalgia-goggles fit fine thank you. No, I do not think it's good for Shen. His current Q is 100% a step in a better direction. Except, for, the Spirit Sword. The big floating toothpick is what I have issue with because I feel it's a tacked on gimmick during a time when riot was obsessed with smashing new ideas into every champion remake. For better (Barrels for Gangplank) or worse (Skarner and his 'crystal spires').

The %health should definitely be kept, but the bonus damage/AS and the piss-poor slow should be added in other ways instead of the spirit sword. Maybe through successfully blocking with W? Maybe add the effect through a successful taunt. I'm honestly not sure how riot would add the situational power back in, but what I can tell you is what doesn't feel good.

All of the effects you suggested are nerfs to Shen on SR and buffs to Shen on ARAM. Gangplank takes a lot of skill and time to get going into a game, he loses to everybody but comes back with a combo that can actually 1 shot a carry. (You wouldn't know because - ARAM) And you quit SR because of like 4 champions? Eve, Morde, Shen and then the entire marksman class? I agree with you, Shen doesn't feel good with his toothpick sword on ARAM because he is bottom tier on ARAM. He is only good for his W - E - R on ARAM which are the things you're suggesting to be buffed while the Q getting nerfed into the ground because Nostalgia.

I recommend that you Go play Shen on SR and then make a few suggestions. All champions are balanced around SR, not ARAM. Your suggestions are basically removing Shen out of a game that he wouldn't be able to exist in if it weren't for his changes.

I would also like to tackle the word Gimmick - why do you think his sword is a gimmick? It isn't nowhere near a gimmick as Mordes dragon . . .

SettDownShutUpJun 15, 20171 votes

You're assuming a lot about my experiences on ARAM. I get it, my opinion means less to you because of my choice of game-modes.

Also I'm not suggesting nerfs to Q. I have never suggested nerfs to Q. I'm suggesting that the spirit sword's 'reward' for good play be applied through some other means of good play. As for my thoughts on buffing W, it's cause I feel like W is Shen's most lackluster ability when compared to his other 4 (passive included). The cooldown is brutal for a skill you're intended to max third.

As for gimmicks, I'm glad we're in agreement on Morde's dragon at least. The reason I feels the Spirit Sword's a gimmick is because it conflicts with shen thematically, mechanically and visually. Shen is a ninja, what do ninja's use? Apparently giant glowing swords the size of a Sion. Y'know, for stealth! Nevermind that it doesn't give two shits about whether Shen can be seen in the fog of war/bushes (come to think of it though if you could hide your spirit sword in a bush that would alleviate a lot of the bullshit.)

Subject 5Jun 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You're assuming a lot about my experiences on ARAM. I get it, my opinion means less to you because of my choice of game-modes.

Also I'm not suggesting nerfs to Q. I have never suggested nerfs to Q. I'm suggesting that the spirit sword's 'reward' for good play be applied through some other means of good play. As for my thoughts on buffing W, it's cause I feel like W is Shen's most lackluster ability when compared to his other 4 (passive included). The cooldown is brutal for a skill you're intended to max third.

As for gimmicks, I'm glad we're in agreement on Morde's dragon at least. The reason I feels the Spirit Sword's a gimmick is because it conflicts with shen thematically, mechanically and visually. Shen is a ninja, what do ninja's use? Apparently giant glowing swords the size of a Sion. Y'know, for stealth! Nevermind that it doesn't give two shits about whether Shen can be seen in the fog of war/bushes (come to think of it though if you could hide your spirit sword in a bush that would alleviate a lot of the bullshit.)

It isn't that your choice of game modes means that your opinion means less, it just means that you don't have an understanding of how champions are balanced because you don't play the feature game mode that balancing is revolved around. At least try and use Shen on SR - believe me, there is a lot more to it than what you think.

Laustin SpaceJun 14, 20171 votes

I hated Shen's change at first but now I absolutely LOVE it and the mechanics behind it. It is unique and has a clean feel to it and it feels great when you have to patience to use it properly. I wouldn't mind if the sword visually was smaller otherwise I'd be sad if they removed it altogether. Each to their own I guess.. ^^\

The DeckownerJun 15, 20171 votes

What about just make Shen's Q do what it does without the sword's existance, and make his W spawn around him? His sword seems completely meaningless.

Subject 5Jun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Xdq8hjm,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2017-06-15T21:51:45.330+0000)

What about just make Shen's Q do what it does without the sword's existance, and make his W spawn around him? His sword seems completely meaningless.

Because then Shens Q would need to be nerfed entirely. He can do more than just half somebodies HP with it, if it just did what it did - without the meaningful interaction. He would just be way too strong.