Boards›Gameplay

The one argument I never have understood in this game

Jefftiffy··12 votes·1,241 views

Is that summoner 4 helps immobile champs more than mobile ones when we have people like Riven,Talon ,Katarina ,Akali , Kassadin , MasterYi ,Malphite , Udyr , Khazix ,Irelia , and Kalista who use it to basically jump immobile champs before they can fight back.

To me it actually benefits the mobile champs more because it takes away from the power budget in an immobile champ. Every mobile champ basically uses flash with some exceptions and often to dive immobile champs because they don't have the power to fight back because if they did summoner 4 on immobile champs would make them oppressive. See Annie. She has short range but flash completely negates her weakness.

The game would actually be easier to balance without flash instead of going "Oh, but flash is more effective on immobile champs than mobile ones". Because let's be honest that isn't true. Flash derives its strength from a kit as a whole not your mobility. It seems more useful on immobile champs but that's because its more noticeable but it causes the same problems with mobile champs.

summoner 6 at least has the counter play of letting you react to it. (on specific people its actually better than flash, but situationally)

23 Comments

Hayaishi28 votes

Then you remove flash and no immobile champion will ever see play because shit like J4 and Vi exist.

The Yetii Rider6 votes

The problem isn't that immobile champs aren't strong with Flash, it's that champions who have mobility do not pay for it through damage or utility. Ekko, for instance, has insane mobility, plenty of CC, a huge shield and assassin level damage. His power is completely budgeted around the high counterplay of his abilities, not around the kit itself.

Moulin Rouge2 votes

{quoted}

The problem isn't that immobile champs aren't strong with Flash, it's that champions who have mobility do not pay for it through damage or utility. Ekko, for instance, has insane mobility, plenty of CC, a huge shield and assassin level damage. His power is completely budgeted around the high counterplay of his abilities, not around the kit itself.

I've never actually been solo killed by an Ekko before. It's usually his CC that keeps me there until his friends show up...or he cleans up low health targets. I'm just sayin...

Ralanr1 votes

Well he is part assassin. Cleaning up low health targets is part of the job description.

Enosetc3 votes

the issue with flash is that the problem it brought to the game was ignored so long that eventually the game had to be designed with its existence in mind

it's like using a tumor as a bonding agent

Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

the issue with flash is that the problem it brought to the game was ignored so long that eventually the game had to be designed with its existence in mind

it's like using a tumor as a bonding agent

That's certainly an interesting way to put it lol. But you would think they would try to at the very least work around it or even try to replace it at some point at least on the PBE.

Stephenizgod2 votes

Wowowowowow who said summoner 4 was better on immobile champs? Thats ridiculous hahaha! First off a mobile champ can use their dash and flash to close the distance meaning the flash is completely negated. Second off flash gives mobile champs more opportunity to out play, an immobile champ can flash a wall but then so can any one with flash, a mobile champ can jump a wall at least 2 times with flash or they can save flash to further their escape. Flash is better on mobile champs because it can be used to negate the flash of immobile champs while still retaining their own mobility.

Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

Wowowowowow who said summoner 4 was better on immobile champs? Thats ridiculous hahaha! First off a mobile champ can use their dash and flash to close the distance meaning the flash is completely negated. Second off flash gives mobile champs more opportunity to out play, an immobile champ can flash a wall but then so can any one with flash, a mobile champ can jump a wall at least 2 times with flash or they can save flash to further their escape. Flash is better on mobile champs because it can be used to negate the flash of immobile champs while still retaining their own mobility.

The thing is. That is often the first argument that pops up and gets upvoted hard the second a summoner 4 removal thread pops up. So either people don't think and just downvote people for thinking getting rid of flash is a good thing or they don't think about how much flash actually helps mobile champs.

I feel like Riot often uses summoner 4 as a way to stop immobile champs from using their power too much but at the same time limits their power because they have access to it. Meanwhile mobile champs rarely ever pay for what they have that much (I mean what's 500 dps when you can have so much more flexibility and better positioning).

Stephenizgod1 votes

Getting rid of flash is a bad thing, it really does help immobile champs but it definitely helps mobile champs more. Flash needs to be reworked where it has great value to immobile champs and not so much to mobile champs, seems impossible and i dont have the slightest clue on how to do it. The other argument is to make other summoners seem valuable enough to not take Flash, well that scares me. Anything a mobile champ thinks more valuable then even more mobility is probably too strong...

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

Getting rid of flash is a bad thing, it really does help immobile champs but it definitely helps mobile champs more. Flash needs to be reworked where it has great value to immobile champs and not so much to mobile champs, seems impossible and i dont have the slightest clue on how to do it. The other argument is to make other summoners seem valuable enough to not take Flash, well that scares me. Anything a mobile champ thinks more valuable then even more mobility is probably too strong...

I think really the only thing flash needs is like a 1s true silence on using flash. You cannot use items, you cannot use other summoners, and you cannot use abilities. But then again that may kill it completely. I feel like it would make flash an escape spell or something that leans towards helping ADCs which may give room for counter play to flash. It's really hard to balance something that really should be an active on an item.

Ralanr1 votes

The only idea I have is disabling flash for certain champions. Which of course would be BS.

Stephenizgod1 votes

exacto, its just not possible to balance that summoner spell, but it would hurt immobile champs a lot if it was removed.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Getting rid of flash is a bad thing, it really does help immobile champs but it definitely helps mobile champs more. Flash needs to be reworked where it has great value to immobile champs and not so much to mobile champs, seems impossible and i dont have the slightest clue on how to do it. The other argument is to make other summoners seem valuable enough to not take Flash, well that scares me. Anything a mobile champ thinks more valuable then even more mobility is probably too strong...

JRobin312 votes

Hmmm... let's examine some champions Leblanc Riven Lucian Jinx Darius Ashe In almost every situation where LeBlanc could flash... she's actually better off using her W. Riven usually doesn't need flash to close on an opponent or to escape opponents. The situations where it really benefits her are usually tower dives or surprise (flash stun) both of which are situations that benefit immobile champions at least as much (perhaps more). Let's say you play a game and (oops!) you forgot to take flash. If you are Lucian then you have dash to fall back on that can keep you relatively safe in lane or allow you to close gaps to get kills. On the other hand, if you happened to be a classic immobile carry such as Jinx, you are in trouble the moment your gap is closed. So you would be forced to play much safer if you didn't have flash. Darius is an immobile champion who is easily kited. Casters at worlds have pointed this out as a major weakness for Darius. If Darius wants to be aggressive, he needs to close the gap. And that means that he benefits massively from having flash. The difference here is stark since mobile champions can engage much more easily without flash, but Darius practically needs it or he can't aggress effectively against intelligent opponents. Ashe is immobile, but has a lot of CC that can help play safe. She is an example of an immobile champion that can do better if she happens not to have flash then other champions that are immobile and happen not to have flash. That said, jumping walls can be very important for any champion to do and the fact that she can't means that she benefits more from flash than champions that can already jump walls. What this all comes down to is that mobile champions already have play making options in their kits and immobile champions often don't. And this is why immobile champions benefit greatly from flash... more so than mobile champions. You might want to consider what it means to be a mobile champion more carefully. For example you place Udyr on a list of mobile champions. Udyr doesn't actually have a gap closer. So his mobility is tied to increasing his base movement speed. So actually it is Udyr's lack of a gap close that causes flash to be effective on him for closing the gap with an immobile champion. This entire discussion is just a bit more complicated then everything said so far. Ghost provides a lot of mobility but the benefit of flash is surprise, play making, and instant escape. Whether or not you are considered a mobile champion or an immobile champion flash creates an instant shift in the zones of control. The reason flash benefits immobile champions more is that immobile champions don't have a means for quickly shifting their zone of control but immobile champions already do this to a certain extent already. An argument to say immobile champions benefit more from flash than immobile champions amounts to mobile champions who decided that they don't need to take flash at all. In this case, they "benefit" by virtue of freeing up a summoner spell that immobile champions consider a must have. But that also suggests that mobile champions are intrinsically the same as immobile champions sans their mobility and this is not the case, because immobile champions actually tend to benefit from their lack of mobility be having more in their kits for other types of abilities. So intrinsiclly, sans mobility, immobile champions tend to have an edge. What this amounts to is that mobile champions as a whole can't benefit more from flash than immobile champions.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Flash is the only reason most immobile champs can even play. If I play mid-lane as Anivia Velkoz Brand and get caught out of position or pincered, I'm screwed UNLESS Flash is up. And that's kind of an acceptable trade-off, because I can escape once every 5 minutes and I probably shouldn't be out of position more often than that or I deserve to die. I think of it like an Anivia egg -- I hopefully won't need to use it more often than it comes up if I'm playing well.

On the other hand, if a Katarina Zed Ekko gets caught out of position, they're screwed unless their mobility skill is up -- but it often is, or at least it often comes up during a fight.

So currently, an immobile champion can escape once every 5 minutes while a mobile one can escape once every 8-15 seconds. I guess that's fair, if immobile champions are compensated in some way. But removing Flash means that immobile champions can never escape, while mobile champs can still escape every 8-15 seconds.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

you forgotFiora Ekko Diana Ahri Nidalee

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

you forgotFiora Ekko Diana Ahri Nidalee

The thing is, a lot of these champs have 1 key thing. They are new or reworked champs meaning that they have had the mobility creep swing in their favor. The only exception is Diana who is basically the same as pre-rework akali with extra damage instead of healing.

Moulin Rouge1 votes

Did you know with max CDR (which is mandatory), Karma has a near permanent 60% speed boost and when you add Ludens echo, that girl can move at the speed of light.

Just sayin.

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moulin Rouge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0XEhLkOv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-06T02:13:27.706+0000)

Did you know with max CDR (which is mandatory), Karma has a near permanent 60% speed boost and when you add Ludens echo, that girl can move at the speed of light.

Just sayin.

I believe I also forgot Rengar master of the infinite bush hopping. I also forgot about Janna, Fizz, and LeeSin.

BakedLotion1 votes

Then how will they survive assassins? If Zed ults you, you're going to die since he has another gap closer while you have none. Don't even say Zhonya's because you'll be dead afterwards anyways since you have no escape.

Tactical Salad1 votes

I'm gonna leave comment here that I also left on another post.

"I completely agree with the OP here. Tele isn't in the slightest a problem, and almost the entire meta of the game is based around Flash. And honestly, there's a few simple(or not so simple) solutions to it(In my opinion).

If you were to remove flash, here would be an(some) issue(s):

  • Mobile champs would become insanely powerful due to the fact that they can't get caught by the immobile ones(Kog'Maw or Xerath for example.).

  • low mobility champions would lose a lot of escape potential, making ganks more potent.

  • Certain junglers would no longer be able to make the same plays they would have been able to before (Such as flash smite on drag/Baron,)

  • Other flash related plays like with Annie or Galio would no longer be possible.

It would force RIOT to do one, or some, of the following:

  • Nerf the damage of high mobility champs (it would make sense. They can already out maneuver you, they shouldn't also have super high ratios to boot.)

  • Make high mobility champs more squishy (Example; removing Yasuo's shield.)

  • Slightly reducing the cooldowns on low mobility champs, allowing compensation with higher damage output speed. Remove the CC that certain high mobility champs have (For example, Zed's slow on his E[?], Rivens' knock up and stun, the slow on Fizz's Playful/trickster and/or his ult.)

  • Tweak a lot of the junglers and other champs that require flash to function, giving them better dueling/team fighting, or higher mobility.

  • Putting move speed on certain items(Kind of like they have with Luden's Echo.)

  • Another option is tweaking champions making them have more mobility inherently in their kit.

I am not saying by any means this would be something that is easy, but if you break the way this game is played down to the basics, flash is necessary on most (not saying all) champs; and is far more of a problem that teleport has ever been. Personally, I love flash, I use it on almost every champ, but it is an issue that needs to be addressed."

There is always a way to balance something. It's just a matter of if you're willing to do it.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Imagine how unstoppable junglers like JarvanIV LeeSin Maokai Rammus Pantheon Rengar Skarner Volibear Warwick XinZhao would be if flash didn't exist. Immobile laners would be completely unplayble if champs like these were ever on the enemy team.

LadyRenly1 votes

I don't see how its removal would screw over immobile people. You could ward and not get caught out, or place strategic CC like a lux bind or swain root..

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Jefftiffy

I'm tired of the fucking defeatist attitude in this game
Gameplay225 comments
203
votes
I'm not going to lie. I hate the new trinkets
Gameplay88 comments
184
votes
Kind of tired of LB
Gameplay93 comments
85
votes
This Gnar Syndra interaction
Gameplay41 comments
82
votes
Hrm I wonder why Red's don't post here
Gameplay74 comments
76
votes
Camille is probably one of the most toxic champs right now
Gameplay93 comments
72
votes