Wtf is Riot thinking on Ornn?

Illabethe·Nov 7, 2018·12 votes·8,589 views

Okay...... I'm getting a headache here.....

A Summary of what Ornn is going to have/do:

Living Forge will no longer cost gold to upgrade items, BUT, will work like Zilean's XP boost..... and Channel to activate on an ally (antsy teams.....), and is eligible at level 11.

-W no longer gives a shield...........

-W net gains + 5 Seconds to its end cooldown......

In other words: No Sustain. But hey..... if you get to level 11, you can upgrade people's items........

Ornn's shield was the only reason he was even VIABLE.

Now he's going to die in 2 seconds, and can't even top lane.

But hey...... free item upgrades....

-No Jungling (Can't tank enough) -No Support (Poked out of lane) -No Turret Turtling.... (Because now anyone can dive him...)

What is Riot thinking, doing this to a friggin 47% win champ?

65 Comments

YoRHa 2BNov 7, 201811 votes

They gave him unstoppable back tho.

Iźuku MidoriyaNov 7, 20185 votes

i think they are looking into giving his unstoppableness back on his dash skill

dankleaveNov 7, 20185 votes

Removing his shield was a good idea, no reason for every champ to have sustain, Definetely not a tank

IllabetheNov 7, 20182 votes

He is NOT a Tank. Nothing about his kit scales as a tank except DAMAGE. His entire premise as a tank was about his shield. Otherwise, He's basically a fighter with no AD scaling except on Q.

I had more success on him building item 3078 item 3071 than ANY tank build, and I had Mastery 7 on Day 2 of his release.

Spank the FoxNov 7, 20187 votes

Ornn has CC on all his abilities and can easily ragdoll squishies into submission.

He’s a tank.

IllabetheNov 7, 20181 votes

The only reason he ever could kill ANY squishies was his shield. Once the shield's gone, squishies beat Ornn every single time, unless they were standing next to a wall.

Iota ThetaNov 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The only reason he ever could kill ANY squishies was his shield. Once the shield's gone, squishies beat Ornn every single time, unless they were standing next to a wall.

He shouldn’t be able to kill a number squishies come late game. DPS should shred him. Ornn’s shield is necessary, but his power was his CC, not damage. After a certain point, damage dealers should beat him.

IllabetheNov 7, 20181 votes

And they COULD...... unless they stood next to walls..... And it had to be walls at the right angle.... Unlike Poppy , Ornn doesn't have a way to position himself to Gap close. Q is delayed, and wall knocks are unreliably versus people who know his basic mechanics. He can't change the angle between him and his opponent.

"Should" is a pretty subjective term, btw. Are you saying that a skill-less, overloaded adc should be able to kill someone whose mechanically outplaying them? Or are you saying, that when Ornn and a squishy duel, the squishy should win some of the time?

I mean..... I've used another example before:

On Sion about 4 months back, I jungled a Jinx into a 0/9 state of game.... she had no kills at all, died 9 times in a row, never got her farm.....

...... And then my team gave her a triple at about 17:00.

Suddenly Jinx had item 3031 item 3085 item 3095 and proceeded to 1v5 the very team that put her down 0/9.

I had 5500 HP as Sion, substantially tanky, and substantial damage.

Jinx proceeded to begin melting me in 4 seconds, with no escape possible.

I went from 9/2/9 to 11/9/12 and she went from 0/9/2 to 11/9/7.

Is that what you're defending? Getting outplayed an entire game only to come back and end a game in 5 minutes because of an overloaded champ getting a triple?

Iota ThetaNov 7, 20183 votes

{quoted}

And they COULD...... unless they stood next to walls..... And it had to be walls at the right angle.... Unlike , Ornn doesn't have a way to position himself to Gap close. Q is delayed, and wall knocks are unreliably versus people who know his basic mechanics. He can't change the angle between him and his opponent.

"Should" is a pretty subjective term, btw. Are you saying that a skill-less, overloaded adc should be able to kill someone whose mechanically outplaying them? Or are you saying, that when Ornn and a squishy duel, the squishy should win some of the time?

I mean..... I've used another example before:

On about 4 months back, I jungled a into a 0/9 state of game.... she had no kills at all, died 9 times in a row, never got her farm.....

...... And then my team gave her a triple at about 17:00.

Suddenly Jinx had and proceeded to 1v5 the very team that put her down 0/9.

I had 5500 HP as Sion, substantially tanky, and substantial damage.

Jinx proceeded to begin melting me in 4 seconds, with no escape possible.

I went from 9/2/9 to 11/9/12 and she went from 0/9/2 to 11/9/7.

Is that what you're defending? Getting outplayed an entire game only to come back and end a game in 5 minutes because of an overloaded champ getting a triple?

Dps is supposed to beat tanks with proper positioning. Through and through. That’s how the triangle works: burst beats dps, dps beats tank, tank beats burst. This is assuming players of equal skill of course.

You saying “skill-less, overloaded adc” is also dishonest. Vast majority of adcs are not no skill. Maybe because the majority of their damage is all in autos, but they have to pay attention to the same postioning that you say Ornn has to pay attention to.

Q is delayed, and wall knocks are unreliably versus people who know his basic mechanics.

This is what made his E knockups so impactful and rewarding.

Anyway, your Sion example leaves out a lot. How much farm had Jinx been fetting that she could all of a sudden purchase a Stormrazor, runaan’s, and IE after just a triple? What build were you running? All you said was you had 5500 health as sion with sibstantial tankiness and damage, what other items did you have? Any actual armor? Why not a Randuin’s to make her attack slower?

There’s no way an adc with no escapes 1v5’d your team. I don’t buy that one bit. But, she’s also a hypercarry, and the fact that she got that fed says something about how you played and how long you dragged out the match. An 0/9/2 Jinx should not be able to stop your sieges, so what happened that you couldn’t close?

But no, I’m defending that dps, when run by someone of equal skill to yourself should easily be able to handle Ornn unless massively immobile. An adc or other squishy champ that disrespects will take punishment, but in the end, dps wins, and tanks like Ornn should have less kill pressure when their power is in CC.

IllabetheNov 8, 20181 votes

you need to leave your triangle at the door. You're arguing only adcs should ever win mid - late game. You're saying the game should NOT have tanks and in fact no way to even make tanks viable mid - late game..
Lmfao. As soon as Prestige Kai Sa came out, I picked her up for the very first time (never played her) and went 19/13/20. Such "Skill." I also pull the same when I play Jinx, and I do NOT play adc. I also do the same on Ezreal (The real reason Ez has such a high pick rate even though he's a crappy adc..... is because he's EASY for a non ADC fill).

I won't deny there are some adcs like Vayne, Tristana, which are skill picks..... but their win/losses have FAR more to do with deviant itemization vs meta itemization. if they follow the cookie cutter build, even their losses look like they've been playing the champ a long time.

My recollection was slightly off about the match. But I did have defensive items:

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2847269884/243999882?tab=overview

(Jinx didn't get a single kill until just before 20 minutes! Her Relevant snowball didn't happen until 27 minutes).

You'll notice..... Jhin, I, and Blitz all had acceptable KDAs, and we had complete map control until that snowball.

You really have no idea how fast some adcs close games.

Iota ThetaNov 8, 20183 votes

I barely care for the rest of your argument after this:

you need to leave your triangle at the door. You're arguing only adcs should ever win mid - late game. You're saying the game should NOT have tanks and in fact no way to even make tanks viable mid - late game..

Holy crap, way to put words in my mouth and completely misrepresent me. I have never said tanks should not be viable mid - late. That is drastic misrepresentation. Listen, tanks are my best and main class. 80% of my time in top lane is tanks. Same with Support. Jungle lately has been J4, but in more of a tanky capacity, but Maokai jungle is one my favorite junglers. Don’t you dare insinuate that I don’t want tanks viable. EVER.

I believe in balance, and the truth is that damage outscales defense, that’s how league was designed. Otherwise, tanks would rule with their defenses because dps would not be able to kill them. That triangle is the core of everything relating to tanks and damage dealers in almost every game. MMOs, tanks die more to consistent damage if they aren’t healed, and are set up in ways to take spike damage. You dare say I only want adcs to win, but in an ideal triangle system, adcs have to fear burst damage, aka assassins and burst mages. If they succeed, adcs can’t kill a tank. If burst can’t kill The adc, the adc will be anle to dps the tank and drop it between crits and %armor pen, should they be building it (which they should have to to deal with tanks).

As for your Kai’sa match. I found it, it’s also your only positive kda and win with her on op.gg, in a game that went to 60 Kills for both sides. That is ridiculous and way out of the norm for matches these days. That was a kill fest that lasted an hour. Matches don’t normally last that long these days, so I’m slightly curious as to why that couldn’t close out earlier, but at this point, not worth it.

IllabetheNov 8, 20181 votes

Everything counters Tanks. it's not a triangle. Mages..... Adcs..... Assassins ALL tear a hole in tanks.

The ONLY type of champion not beating tanks right now..... are DoT champs. That's it. Literally it. DoT. Everything else slaughters tanks.

I don't care whether you play tanks or not. You are misrepresenting them.

Building Penetration should NEVER be foolproof. Yet it's ALWAYS foolproof. If someone builds Armor Penetration..... there should be counters to that. There aren't.

As I said, I pulled her out of the box and score a huge game with her. It wasn't because I was weak; It was because I had a feeding team, and I was the one keeping the lights on.

And..... it's not like ANY of my scores since then have been "bad." If you actually look at the game details, I won every lane exchange. But you can't carry int feeders, feeding hyper carries..... every. single. game.

40-60 minute games are indicative of a hyper carry in a team of bad players. "Way out of the Norm lol." It's normal for someone who doesn't surrender. Ever.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MNov 8, 20182 votes

The only mages that really counter tanks are dps mages Azir Cassiopeia Ryze and Velkoz because of his true damage, otherwise mages are mainly forced into kiting tanks while doing relatively insignificant damage (unless way ahead) to avoid their cc abilities.

A tank's main value they bring to the team is utility, CC/Engage Ornn R (or Q>E), Alistar combo Sion ult, or disengage/utility Poppy W/R

IllabetheNov 8, 20181 votes

Zyra Zoe Ziggs Xerath Veigar Viktor Fizz Karthus Karma AurelionSol Evelynn Katarina

Can all destroy tanks.

Some take a little longer but they all apply.

Morgana Can't kill a tank at all. The only reason Zyra can is because her Burst complements her DoT.

Void staff pretty much mitigates Tank resist items when used on these champs. Void staff on Morgana doesn't do that at all.

Iota ThetaNov 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Can all destroy tanks.

Some take a little longer but they all apply.

Can't kill a tank at all. The only reason Zyra can is because her Burst complements her DoT.

Void staff pretty much mitigates Tank resist items when used on these champs. Void staff on Morgana doesn't do that at all.

Did you build 0 MR against some of those champs? Were they insanely fed? For Brand and Zyra, maybe even Ziggs and Xerath did you run item 3194 ?

Just because this sounds like you built 0 MR, I did a calculation or two. If you built only item 3194 item 3001 against them as a level 11 Ornn, you’d have 153.1 MR, reducing their magic damage dealth 60.4%. If item 3379 , just going off the passive adjust on PBE, you’d have 188.1 MR, reducing their damage by 65%. Now, add in item 3135 , which grants 35% magic penetration. This takes your MR down to where you’d reduce damage by 49.9% and 55%, respectively with the items and values above. At that point, they need to deal twice your health in magic damage to kill you (cause damage is halved so they have to deal double than what they normally would have to against 0 MR so double your health). For DoT mages like Brand, his damage is cut a bit more because of item 3194 .

So for a level 11 Ornn, that’s 2055 health with Adaptive and Abyssal, and 2255 with Adaptive and Infernal, Ignoring rune bonuses. So, these mages and assassins have to deal 4000-4500 damage in a short soan based on the items above. Not possible, especially not for the assassins unless insanely fed.

If you’re even and they aren’t insanely fed, and if actually buying MR, there is no reason most of those should destroy a tank in their rotations. Especially not Evelynn , Fizz , Zoe , Katarina , and Karma

IllabetheNov 8, 20181 votes

I play the mages versus the tanks, dude. And I shred them.

Adaptive does slow the process, but it doesn't STOP the process.

P.S. Your information is out of date. Void staff is 40% Penetration.

Brand has burst in addition to burn.....

You do realize a Katarina Dagger does a base mid - late game damage of 800-900? She also prevents heals..... which is what most tanks sustain on these days.....

You really have no clue how Evelynn works if you think she doesn't delete tanks. Let me explain something to you:

Evelynn's E does % Max HP damage. Late game it alone can do about 80% of ANY champion's HP. If a target has 4500 HP, she can literally do 2400-2800 damage with E. Also, she, unlike other champs, has a Magic Penetration of 75%, so almost ALL of this damage goes through. Furthermore, at this point in the game, her ult can actually do 2400 MORE damage, because of AP scaling.

(It's not like Evelynn doesn't get 1024 AP or anything)

I also know Karma doesn't seem like a champ who can melt tanks but I can assure you she can. I have killed a Sejuani in 8 seconds with Karma. You just need to have the right items.... namely item 3135 item 3151 , and a lot of move speed items. A fully engaged Karma who isn't just spamming Q, can destroy tanks.

IllabetheNov 9, 20181 votes

P.S. I want you to look at my last Zyra game tonight (maybe). I did exactly what I just told you. I jungled Zyra vs Volibear, and the other team had a Nasus top, and they even had a fed Morg/Sivir.

I first item item 3135 and won the game for my team, which systematically fed Voli too.

P0IS0N IVYNov 7, 20182 votes

A lot of players complained about the removal of his unstoppable, so Riot is probably looking to put it back. I did like that portion of his W, so I don't mind it too much. He'll have to build slightly differently to make up for lack of sustain.

IllabetheNov 7, 20182 votes

Build what pray tell? There isn't a single item in the game that can make up for the lack of the shield.

P0IS0N IVYNov 8, 20181 votes

That will be up for testing. The unstoppable can now be used offensively so it might be better to build an offensive item early for an all in. Alternatively, he can build mostly the same because unstoppable makes him harder to gank.

IllabetheNov 8, 20181 votes

Unstoppable doesn't make you harder to gank omfg. It's on a skill that prevents you from doing anything else! If you W, you cannot use ANYTHING to mitigate damage.

It's not like other champs who have Unstoppable where it serves a specific purpose.

Malph: Secures his ult Darius: Secures his ult Corki: Secures his Special Delivery Hecarim: Secures his ult Jarvan: Secures his ult Kled: Secures his ult Nocturne: Secures his ult Shyvana: Secures her ult Vi: Secures her ult Warwick: Secures his ult, prevents displacement during his Q (Q being the ONLY exception to the rule, and only for displacements) Zac: Secures his ult

See a pattern here?

The only champs who have Unstoppable are ones that need it to secure a gap closing ult, or in Corki's case, his extremely powerful, ult-like passive.

They all cross map distance. None of these champs actually uses it to mitigate damage, or prevent ganks. They enable killing moves.

Ornn's W is NOT a killing move, slows his movement speed, doesn't displace him or cross distances. What it does do, is slow him to 280 move speed, make him face a specific direction. Without a barrier, the only purpose of Unstoppable on Ornn's W is to basically prevent the skill itself from cancelling.

Which ...... already existed. In every single incarnation of Bellow's Breath, it has not been stoppable. Even when they removed Unstoppable, W was given a feature where "Crowd control does not interrupt the skill, but will stop the march"

Going into Bellows Breath is going to be a suicide button. Much like Ornn's E as an escape is a suicide button, because it slightly displaces him BACKWARDS, and has a windup to cast.

Trying to say this will make him harder to gank, means you don't understand Unstoppable.

I'll give you an example of what Unstoppable used to do:

Day 2 of Ornn being out, I had a game versus a Veigar. Veigar's wall is extremely hard for Ornn to avoid, and even if you E it to destroy it, you'll still get stunned because of the rule "anything that touches it." So, W with unstoppable made this tradeoff a bit more survivable. You could W through the wall, to keep active, get stunned slightly on the other side of it, depending on your Tenacity level. But you had a shield to soak whatever Veigar hit you with, and you weren't standing still for his W. Even with the shield, it's a 50/50 interaction. That won't happen now.

P0IS0N IVYNov 14, 20181 votes

Unstoppable can make you harder to gank simply due to displacement immunity.

Ornn clearly doesn't have any more damage mitigation. Now it's CC mitigation. So you play him appropriately. You're still trying to think that he should have a shield, but he doesn't anymore.

Also his brittle proc does a lot of damage, so I'd say the W isn't bad.

IllabetheNov 15, 20181 votes

I want you to think for a second.

How many Knockup/Knockbacks/Irregular displacements actually affect an Ornn More than his own W does (You can do nothing while in W, not even change direction)

Aatrox W Can't be displaced to the middle of the chains, but still is sitting prone to take Aatrox's beating.

Alistar Can't be knocked back, but is still primed to take Alistar's delayed Stun as soon as W ends.

AurelionSol Can't be knocked back, but still takes all the damage, and gets hit by his Rings.

Diana Doesn't stop her Moonlight, and gives her an EASY target to R, even if E doesn't work.

Darius Won't pull, but depending on the direction of the W, he will either march right into other Darius skills, priming a Darius kill of Ornn, or he will slightly, slowly move away from Darius and do no damage, which gives Darius a bit of a chance to still lay on 3-4 Bleed stacks.

Blitzcrank Won't pull. This is one of the major, significant benefits.

LeeSin Won't displace, so it has a purpose.... if the goal of the lee was to throw you into a turret or a bad teamfight. If his goal was to solo though, Lee has time to get off his combo, making the result negligible.

Pyke Won't Pull

Poppy Won't wall hit, but is also in an easier position to bait you to use E while she W's.

Shyvana Won't Knock Back, but you're still face tanking Shyvana, immobile.

Thresh Won't Pull (but can still be pulled to.....)

That's really the list of the usual "useful" uses of Unstoppable, and only three have major significant benefits: Pyke/Blitz/Thresh.

The rest...... the only real advantage is to prevent a Yasuo R.

P0IS0N IVYNov 15, 20181 votes

Ok. Now you can think about its uses offensively too.

IllabetheNov 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=P0IS0N IVY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0U6B986W,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-15T01:51:22.766+0000)

Ok. Now you can think about its uses offensively too.

There are none. W by its nature has ALWAYS done that job. After it was removed, they still enabled the W to continue until over. The only thing different about having it vs not having it was, the march would stop going forward.

P0IS0N IVYNov 15, 20181 votes

There are none.

That's my point. You keep saying that.

IllabetheNov 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=P0IS0N IVY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0U6B986W,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-15T04:05:56.168+0000)

That's my point. You keep saying that.

Except there are no offensive uses for the Unstoppable o.O.

P0IS0N IVYNov 19, 20181 votes

That's the issue. There are. You can keep saying there aren't, but you won't be able to use Ornn as effectively with that mindset.

IllabetheNov 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=P0IS0N IVY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0U6B986W,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-19T19:26:10.375+0000)

That's the issue. There are. You can keep saying there aren't, but you won't be able to use Ornn as effectively with that mindset.

Then give an example of an offensive purpose of marching directionally for .75 seconds at half speed, and not being able to react to anything else around you.

It's like Zhonya-ing in the middle of a group with no peel/way to get out.

P0IS0N IVYNov 19, 20181 votes

I did give an example. Read previous parts of the discussion.

IllabetheNov 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=P0IS0N IVY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0U6B986W,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-19T23:11:09.521+0000)

I did give an example. Read previous parts of the discussion.

You're referring to your common sense use of W to place Brittle?

Brittle doesn't mean crap if you don't have enough health post W, to follow up in 3 seconds. I have videos of what 3 second "Brittle feels like" WITH a shield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2k5NsS8Uy0

(I use this as a catch all video for some points about Ornn. In the video, I actually hit Yasuo with my ult..... he somehow glitched and didn't airborne even though Above his head it literally says AIRBORNE, continued to skill, and was Brittled by my ult. The Brittle was gone by the time I E'd into his last Q, and shortly after auto attacked. If the Brittle had lasted .5 second longer, He would have been knocked back, taken a significant amount of damage, and probably died..... and this is a COMMON exchange on Ornn...... because E has a .75 second windup, auto attacks take about another .75 seconds, and the animation time of the E consumes most of the rest of that 3 seconds)

I'm sorry..... when someone says to think of something offensive to use W for, I'm thinking beyond the obvious linear use that doesn't even require more than two brain cells.

Also, That's not exactly any new use of W with Unstoppable..... his W still procced Brittle even when it wasn't unstoppable. All W did when you CC'd him was stopped marching. He'd still brittle....... and be Stunned/Rooted after the march ended by whatever duration cc was still left.....

P0IS0N IVYNov 20, 20181 votes

I'm pretty sure I didn't say to think about Ornn's linear use of his W.

Anyhoo, it seems pointless to try and convince you since you're so deadset on getting his shield back.

Iota ThetaNov 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're referring to your common sense use of W to place Brittle?

Brittle doesn't mean crap if you don't have enough health post W, to follow up in 3 seconds. I have videos of what 3 second "Brittle feels like" WITH a shield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2k5NsS8Uy0

(I use this as a catch all video for some points about Ornn. In the video, I actually hit Yasuo with my ult..... he somehow glitched and didn't airborne even though Above his head it literally says AIRBORNE, continued to skill, and was Brittled by my ult. The Brittle was gone by the time I E'd into his last Q, and shortly after auto attacked. If the Brittle had lasted .5 second longer, He would have been knocked back, taken a significant amount of damage, and probably died..... and this is a COMMON exchange on Ornn...... because E has a .75 second windup, auto attacks take about another .75 seconds, and the animation time of the E consumes most of the rest of that 3 seconds)

I'm sorry..... when someone says to think of something offensive to use W for, I'm thinking beyond the obvious linear use that doesn't even require more than two brain cells.

Also, That's not exactly any new use of W with Unstoppable..... his W still procced Brittle even when it wasn't unstoppable. All W did when you CC'd him was stopped marching. He'd still brittle....... and be Stunned/Rooted after the march ended by whatever duration cc was still left.....

Minor nitpick. Had he not Q’d you as you E’d, you likely would’ve gotten the proc. The fact that he screwed up your E and avoided the pops in general was good on him. He only got Brittle from R2, so that was some impressive dodging on his part, since it looked like he dodged just about everything. The airborne is weird though. Possibly from being hit just as he E-Q’d?

P0IS0N IVYNov 22, 20181 votes

I think you replied to the wrong person.

BestealNov 7, 20181 votes

UNSTOPPABLE btw

Iota ThetaNov 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

UNSTOPPABLE btw

It’s nice....but it’s not as valuable as the shield. Funny, take his damage to how it was and he can have both again.

IllabetheNov 7, 20182 votes

His damage was more then than now. And keep In mind..... they are nerfing the cooldown on W too.... Was 9 seconds max rank. Now .... 14. Which means..... up to 8 seconds from 5 seconds on CDR. Without a shield. For a .75 Second Unstoppable, which doesn't eliminate CC, Doesn't shield and says "Hey. kill me while I can do nothing to fight back"

Iota ThetaNov 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

His damage was more then than now. And keep In mind..... they are nerfing the cooldown on W too.... Was 9 seconds max rank. Now .... 14. Which means..... up to 8 seconds from 5 seconds on CDR. Without a shield. For a .75 Second Unstoppable, which doesn't eliminate CC, Doesn't shield and says "Hey. kill me while I can do nothing to fight back"

Go back to release, when he had both, and his damage was much lower over the laning phase. It hit hard at first, then dropped off because it was %current. He had low kill pressure, and that was a good thing as a tank. I am very against the overall changes, and a proponent of putting him back to release state, when he did not deal more damage.

IllabetheNov 7, 20181 votes

You are wrong. Although W was Current HP, it had a minimum damage, like every other % Current HP skill (Mundo for example). So, you COULD kill with it. And, he had Q and E as well as R. All of it could kill.

Day 1-2, I averaged an S every single game for 32 straight games..... all wins except one or two, and I was playing his as Support/Jungle. My average score as Support was like 3/3/30 and as Jungle about 17/4/11. I'm accutely aware of what he can do. I never played him as Top until about September this year.

32 wins in a row...... when he was getting 35% win overall among the community.

Original Bellows Breath:

Bellows Breath Bellows Breath ACTIVE: Ornn shields himself for 12% of maximum health for 2.5 seconds and marches unstoppably in the target direction over the next 0.75 seconds. Over the march he belches fire over a cone in front of him, dealing magic damage every 0.15 seconds to enemies hit, up to a maximum of 15 / 17.5 / 20 / 22.5 / 25% of target's current health ** (with a minimum of 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 damage). ** The final bout of flame will apply Brittle. TARGET RANGE: 500 MANA COST: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 COOLDOWN: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 seconds

(Notice also that the Cooldown MAX was 12, down to 8. They are trying to raise it to 14 across the BOARD from 16 - 9. For no Shield.)

Iota ThetaNov 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You are wrong. Although W was Current HP, it had a minimum damage, like every other % Current HP skill (Mundo for example). So, you COULD kill with it. And, he had Q and E as well as R. All of it could kill.

Day 1-2, I averaged an S every single game for 32 straight games..... all wins except one or two, and I was playing his as Support/Jungle. My average score as Support was like 3/3/30 and as Jungle about 17/4/11. I'm accutely aware of what he can do. I never played him as Top until about September this year.

32 wins in a row...... when he was getting 35% win overall among the community.

Original Bellows Breath:

Bellows Breath Bellows Breath ACTIVE: Ornn shields himself for 12% of maximum health for 2.5 seconds and marches unstoppably in the target direction over the next 0.75 seconds. Over the march he belches fire over a cone in front of him, dealing magic damage every 0.15 seconds to enemies hit, up to a maximum of 15 / 17.5 / 20 / 22.5 / 25% of target's current health ** (with a minimum of 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 damage). ** The final bout of flame will apply Brittle. TARGET RANGE: 500 MANA COST: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 COOLDOWN: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 seconds

(Notice also that the Cooldown MAX was 12, down to 8. They are trying to raise it to 14 across the BOARD from 16 - 9. For no Shield.)

Yes, it had a minimum damage, as did the other skills. I didn’t say he couldn’t kill, I said he had lower kill pressure, since his bread-and-butter damage got weaker as fights went on.

I’m not that impressed with day 1-2 S ranks..you know, the days when there are no real standards for a champs performance. How are your S ranks nowadays after people have played him more? That’ll tell me more than your S ranks the first days of his release with a slightly off build and in roles he wasn’t always played in.

32 wins in a row, when people didn’t know how to play as or against him. Ok. How about now?

IllabetheNov 8, 20181 votes

You do realize that the S standards aren't set by other players right? It's a certain CS threshold, certain KDA, certain utility score as baseline.

I still score S's on Ornn, but I win less, because the damage meta has shoved him out. I can 17/6/10 and still lose, because my team has either never played with an Ornn, or my impact is diminished.

(I have used him more top than I did, so my scores now tend to more or less reflect topping him...... which usually is low, unimpactful KDA. In Jung/Support, I have 54-68% Kill contribution. As top, I'm lucky to get 28-36% Kill contribution).

(I also don't main him right now, so My faculties in him are probably a bit diminished; 20% more mistakes etc)

And it was 32 games in a row when people were BEGGING FOR BUFFS TO HIM BECAUSE HE WAS A 35% WIN RATE CHAMP. I told Riot at the time he didn't need buffs lol.

Iota ThetaNov 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that the S standards aren't set by other players right? It's a certain CS threshold, certain KDA, certain utility score as baseline.

I still score S's on Ornn, but I win less, because the damage meta has shoved him out. I can 17/6/10 and still lose, because my team has either never played with an Ornn, or my impact is diminished.

(I have used him more top than I did, so my scores now tend to more or less reflect topping him...... which usually is low, unimpactful KDA. In Jung/Support, I have 54-68% Kill contribution. As top, I'm lucky to get 28-36% Kill contribution).

(I also don't main him right now, so My faculties in him are probably a bit diminished; 20% more mistakes etc)

And it was 32 games in a row when people were BEGGING FOR BUFFS TO HIM BECAUSE HE WAS A 35% WIN RATE CHAMP. I told Riot at the time he didn't need buffs lol.

Not at first, but over time the ranking begins to adjust based on the average. You have to begin performing superbly in order to earn S’s.

If you’re going to 17 kills, you’re matches are going insanely long or people are letting you kill them. Or you literally just focused on kills those matches.

Spicy RiceNov 8, 20182 votes

S standards are affected by community averages over time.

It's why its much easier to get an S on an underplayed champ, as there isn't much data affecting the base line.

sHenHAoWQWDec 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

His damage was more then than now. And keep In mind..... they are nerfing the cooldown on W too.... Was 9 seconds max rank. Now .... 14. Which means..... up to 8 seconds from 5 seconds on CDR. Without a shield. For a .75 Second Unstoppable, which doesn't eliminate CC, Doesn't shield and says "Hey. kill me while I can do nothing to fight back"

removing the sheild would make him for squishy than champions like renektion or irelia, i don't understand how anyone could think thats a viable idea.

Pillar Of SaItNov 7, 20181 votes

He's high priority in LC$

He got the Sej and Zac treatment

IllabetheNov 7, 20181 votes

He is High priority simply because his Ult's Range is something that's hard to mitigate and avoid when you are moving through a jungle with narrow passages and limited dash space. And he already HAD the Sej/Zac treatment. They lengthened the cooldown on his R, made the slow less slowing by 25%, Reduced W's damage drastically, removed half of E's mechanics (You used to have to collide to damage twice. Now most hits are either once, or 150%).

He already had the treatment. This patch is the grave sermon.

Pillar Of SaItNov 7, 20182 votes

"The Sej/Zac treatment" now means "already pretty bad in casual play but still picked in pro so nerfed to troll pick" :^)

Common SatyrNov 15, 20181 votes

to be fair, he will be tankier since he will get free stats now from his upgrade which will now happen much sooner than before.

sHenHAoWQWDec 8, 20181 votes

This community is completely braindead, yes unstoppable was good, but the sheild is what makes this whole champion a tank, he is gonna be less tanky than champions like irelia and fiora or renekton without ANY defensive or heal or damage reduction ability, and lower health stat, how is that viable?

Level 9 YoshiJan 19, 20191 votes

I just picked up Ornn in a game and he sucks. Why did they remove the shield?! Diana gets a damn shield for crying out loud. The shield allows Ornn to go in like Nautilus too who also is a high CC champion. I don't understand why they removed the shield. I feel like it was because they had problems with it in a game and couldn't beat it. But at what end do they think its okay to remove something integral to a champion. Riven gets a shield too based on her damage. They just had to change numbers not remove it. It literally looked like they did it for personal reasons and not logical.