I see people pissing themselves over the amount of damage something deals a lot but nobody seems to have the chesthair to actually propose a specific set of limits.. that or they lack the knowhow. Whichever
But surely someone has some sort of not so embarrassing idea of how much is too much or too little. I mean its a pretty open ended thing you just need some half-decent logic. Someone give me some of this reasoning I'd like to see it.
Spoofghoul2 votesHow about a simple ruleset
if a tank builds full tank and a carry builds full damage
they would kill each other as fast/slow as they would in a level 1 fight no items/no abilties
i think thats a solid base to start working off Tanks would probably then need some steroids like a shield which blocks incoming attacks like shen has for example to give them the ability to ''tank'' more effectively for limited windowns garen is another example of a champion he has a temporary dmg reduction as does braum More things like that for tanks it helps in dealing with the ambient damage
Tanks specifically built to withstand 1 type of damage should also excell really hard at stopping it so full AD or full AP comps arent a good idea since the tank would be 2-3 times harder to kill then vs mixed damage.
thats my opinion so far
GULAG 4 U2 votesNo. Tanks aren't supposed to be 1v1ing.
The only time where a tank can kill an ADC should be when they cc the adc. Tanks are meant to fall off lategame for being hard as fuck to kill before 35 minutes.
Why should someone that goes full tank be able to kill someone that builds damage?
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes...why shouldn't they be capable of doing this?
Why are tanks meant to fall off, what makes you think this? How much damage should a tank be able to tank
GULAG 4 U1 votesOkay not meant to fall off, but the reality is they do now. Also tanks aren't 1v1ers, they are cc meatshield bots. They shouldn't 1v1.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesThey shouldn't 1v1.
Why not? What's wrong with a tank doing 1v1?
GULAG 4 U1 votesBecause they already are a meatshield and cc bot. If they can easily beat the shit outta an ADC it's def tank meta. They are allowed to deal damage, but shouldn't be enough to kill an adc without cc.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votessome people like tank meta, why does tank meta have to be bad?
GULAG 4 U1 votesWait you're telling me tank meta is not bad?
OK
Ralanr1 votesNo he's asking why you think it's bad.
Box isn't stupid. He just wants other people to give their explanations of this whole thing.
GULAG 4 U1 votesIt's just stupid to play against when it takes 10 years to kill someone. Assassins are almost dead and the reaction game doesn't really exist as half of the team takes 10 years to kill.
WoonStruck1 votesThe reaction game DOES exist because you are reacting that entire 10 years.
Actively positioning and pushing 'fronts' like in a war.
It makes teamfights a strategy game just as much as the objectives do.
WoonStruck1 votesPlay any other MOBA.
Just because League is 'baby's first MOBA' doesn't mean ADC should get away with almost everything for free.
GULAG 4 U1 votesI didn't say ADCs should 1v1 everybody but only tanks in the previous post.
WoonStruck1 votesThat I can agree with.
Tanks should have almost no solo pressure at all, even when fed. Its the price they pay for being effectively unkillable.
It should be all about the threat of their team's follow-up.
Keep in mind that Sunfire, IBG, Abyssal, Rylai's, RoA, etc are not really tank items. You buy them with the purpose of dealing damage while getting tankier, the majority of the time.
They should differentiated more by Riot, however. Tank items all need more significant tank passives that help with surviving an initiation through certain excessive damages to them...like AP DPS champions atm. Ugh.
CerealBoxOfDoom2 votesso if we put a tank and a carry next to each other and let them autoattack each other the results should be exactly the same with or without items and that's how we determine if something deals too much damage?
Spoofghoul1 votessomething like that
barring exceptions like malphite with 35% extra armor
or a sion who farmed and extra 2000 health and stuff like that
or a vayne dealing %hp true damage
there will be deviations but i think it is a solid point to work from
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesThere's no deviance.. there's too much and too little.
Does malphite block too much?
Does vayne deal too much or not?
WoonStruck1 votesIt should only ever be 1:1 if someone builds 6 armor/HP items focused around handling auto attack damage and can heal a relevant amount to their HP, and scales off of armor cough old taric cough
Even then...no. if a tank all-ins they should only put even a glass cannon at 1/3. Maybe 1/2 for the more bursty ones like Zac. ADC should be able to 1v1 a tank (I mean actual tank, not Mundo/olaf/skarner, etc) with few exceptions.
Lifesteal should not be a standard. There should be heavy trade-offs for it...like being unable to crit/lifesteal on the same hit, as with any other MOBA. Hell, in other MOBAs, 'lifesteal' is an RNG proc, much like crit.
Damage of resilience granting items should be dropped as well, including Scimitar, Maw, etc. Probably even sunfire and IBG, as relatively minor as their damage increases are for many.
Pokemichael2 votes5.16 
third Q when he has full build. Thats too much damage.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votes5.16
if you go ad right now you can kill any squishie with just 1qs. not full ad. just two ad items.
GULAG 4 U1 votesIf you can land 3 autos. Just two ad items? no, not really. Depends what items.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesthey may have rebalanced it but what he used to have to do is just go make 2 attacks on anything, minion monster, champ, whatever, and then he could walk across the map and one shot a squishy if he wanted, there was no meaningful, if any, cooldown on the 3rd strike
GULAG 4 U1 votesWait the 3rd q never ran out? Holy shit.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesit also didn't have a very good indicator so you could never actually know which one he was on. He was killing people with single autoattacks in some cases if he ever got ahead. 2 or 3 if he was on even ground. You had to cc him and take him down with massive burst or die or you had to be tanky as crap
GULAG 4 U1 votesDidn't you go rilay gunblade maybe Will of the ancients then tank on preseason 5 more the proceeded to be tanky as shit and impossible to kill while nuking people apart with 3rd Q?
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesif you did it wasn't for very long.
GULAG 4 U1 votesWell that's sad, I never got to play reworked morde till riot nuked him.
Pokemichael1 votesCurrent Mord doesnt work AD though, his scalings are terrible now.
IRyzeForNidalee2 votesRemove keystones.
Sylvant2 votesIts not about numbers, its about how the given amount correlates to another and take in mind the conditions. If a champ is labeled tank, he should be able to soak up high amount of damage and deal only a lesser amount. Contrary Mages/ADCs are supposed to deal high amount of damage, but at the price of being squishy. There are other variations with different names and purposes like skirmishers, fighters, juggernauts, many of them being very similar. You also have the supports, you can usually describe them as not scaling too good with items, but having utility which makes them efficient even without much gold to spend. Now the problem comes when a single champion can fit too good in many of those roles, or if he is superior in one of them. For example the recent emerge of champs which are able to build tanky items, yet deal high amount of damage, but not only this, they have overloaded kits with mobility, counterplay, CC and whatnot, yet they were not even intended to work like that, or atleast not at this level. All the numbers you need is to look on pickrate/banrate/winrate and how they correlate, you dont even have to check for stats like damage dealt, taken etc. If the first are extremely high and at the same time you have the opposite example of champions with very low, you know something is wrong. You know you should give it a touch, so they get more even, thats if you actually want to balance things out.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesso how much is too much
What level of damage from a mage would trigger you? What about an assassin or tank?
Sylvant1 votesthis is very general question and you can only get a general answer, there are many variables which needs to be checked before you can say what amount exactly is too much, we can only speak relative, without even giving numbers, but rather correlations, such as assassin shouldnt be able to kill a tank in a matter of seconds, or mage should take half your hp with a single nuke, but then again we dont know the variables, is the tank 5 levels behind, is the tank actually building properly, does he have armor, is the assassin super fed, is the game nuking carry which is 5 levels bellow....If you expect an exact answer, you need to provide exact situation.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 voteswhen its time to say too much is being dealt the claims flow like water rapids and never cease.
This should be about as easy as that. Just create some reasonable variables or pick a champ even. How much damage should leblanc's full combo do for example.. it can be as simple as this
Sylvant1 votesalright, my assumption would be LB full combo should be for certain able to kill adc or mage(unless they have high defense stats for some reason) and should be able to leave tank to lets say 50% hp, assuming the tank didnt stack resistance, have some offensive items and LB has penetration. I cant give you numbers, you should estimate them yourself, taking in mind how much hp a carry or a tank usually has
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesjust ignore enemy stats
total damage is
raw damage * (100/(100+resistance)) = net damage
Just give me the raw damage she should deal, the maximum amount preferably
Sylvant1 votesi dont know really, never paid attention into raw numbers, i like to take things into comparison. If it takes her to full combo to kill carry, seems alright, if i takes her 2 spells and blink of an eye- something is wrong, why would i need the numbers behind that? Whats the purpose of this topic and your question, any reasoning behind it?
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesIronically you just narrowed it down a lot more with this tatement.. with numbers no less.
The point of this topic is because I'm interested in seeing what people come up with
Apparently you believe that Leblanc should be able to kill a squishy champ with 4 spells but not 2.
BloodyTompon2 votesDamage is a bit like a cog in a watch (do people still wear watches?): It's not important in and off itself, only with the surrounding context does it mean/do anything. How much damage is too much without context is like asking if a cog is too big. Context is needed.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesthen tell me in what context some champ may have too much damage.
HIDA1 votesMy thoughts on it are if you die before getting through your combo/help the team in another meaningful way. It's too much damage. Sometimes that's a compositional thing (too many assassins and no back up.) Or more often than not non optimized builds. Generally it's damage into survivability. But some never get out of damage phase. And knowing when to switch is an experience thing.
Horse Grenades1 votes
Tanksuo is too much dmg
GULAG 4 U2 votesIt's getting nerfed.
CerealBoxOfDoom3 voteshow much is too much. don't bullshit me with generalizations about champions people whine about give me numbers or something
Pierce The Veal1 votesTanks/bruisers/juggernauts shouldn't do more than 25-30% of the sustained damage of an average adc. They shouldn't have burst.
Adcs shouldn't have much burst, at their peak dps it should be 25% less than the burst of an assassin or a mage.
Assassins and mages should be a burst 2-2.5 times the average dps of an adc.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesso tanks, bruisers, juggernauts, and adcs shouldn't be dealing burst damage
assassins and mages should be doing burst damage but not more than 2-2.5 the average dps of an adc
adc burst should be 25% less than that of an assassin or mage
So now I have to ask, since assassins and mages have the highest burst and its all relative.. how much damage should an assassin or mage be dealing to an adc with their combo. Ignoring defenses.
Pierce The Veal1 votesso tanks, bruisers, juggernauts, and adcs shouldn't be dealing burst damage
assassins and mages should be doing burst damage but not more than 2-2.5 the average dps of an adc
adc burst should be 25% less than that of an assassin or mage
So now I have to ask, since assassins and mages have the highest burst and its all relative.. how much damage should an assassin or mage be dealing to an adc with their combo. Ignoring defenses.
Anywhere between 125%-250% of the adc's health, depending on the safety of burst, safety of burst, amount of cc in kit, and etc. basically, based on the kit, if you land a full combo, all four abilities, or combo of short cd abilities, one should be able to kill an adc unless the adc devotes an item slot or two to preventing it.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesWhat if they have a 1 second stun
Also how long should it take to deal said 125%?
Pierce The Veal1 votesWhat if they have a 1 second stun
Also how long should it take to deal said 125%?
It all depends on the kit.
Let's say they have that stun, well, that means their dps can bear to be lower. Ultimately, their dps should be higher over their burst period than the adcs dps. The 1 second stun would effectively modify the adc's dps, this allowing the assassin to have lower dps and deal the 125% over a longer period of time. However, the longer it takes to deal the damage, the higher percentage it should be. In short, cc, dps, and percent of adc's health as burst should all be balanced around eachother. A champion could go fully into one while sacrificing the rest, but for it to be an assassin there should be a significant amount of short term dps and % adc's health per combo, though this can be lowered based on the range of the champion and the saftery of the champion, as well as the amount of cc available to the champion. I know it sounds rather complex, but it really doesn't have to be.
ToxycBanana1 votesOk so you seem intent on criticizing people's choices of champions instead of the points they bring up about champs that make them do too much damage, so I'm just going to give you some raw numbers.
If a tank has built 4000 health with 100+ armor, they should NOT under any circumstances be able to be killed by someone with 300+ AD in under 3 seconds. ADCs come to mind when talking about AD values that high, but their intended purpose is to soften up hard targets so I'll leave them out here. There was one time I built tank nautilus with those stats and I got 1v1'd to death in under 6 seconds by a zed who was building some minor defensive stats but had an ad of at least 200.
The reason why this is too much damage is this: Zed is a burst assassin.
What kind of burst assassin should be allowed to kill targets with 4k HP and 100 or more armor in that amount of time?
This damage comes from the keystones riot introduced last time they reworked the mastery system. The reason tanks seem so out of place this season is because all of the power of keystones got shoved into the ferocity/cunning trees and if you're not running DFT, fervor or thunderlords then you're either doing something off meta or you're playing a tanky character.
The keystones riot made for tanks are borderline useless for most tank characters. Hell, there isn't even a keystone that does anything to boost armor. The only tank keystone that benefits the TANK (not the bruiser or support) is strenght of the ages, and that's, at maximum, a raw ~300 hp. This doesn't compare in the slightest to the power given to damage champions in the other keystones.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesOk so you seem intent on criticizing people's choices of champions instead of the points they bring up about champs that make them do too much damage, so I'm just going to give you some raw numbers.
why after repeatedly telling people to just pick a random champ and give an answer would you think I'm highly critical of which champ they choose?
If a tank has built 4000 health with 100+ armor, they should NOT under any circumstances be able to be killed by someone with 300+ AD in under 3 seconds. ADCs come to mind when talking about AD values that high, but their intended purpose is to soften up hard targets so I'll leave them out here. There was one time I built tank nautilus with those stats and I got 1v1'd to death in under 6 seconds by a zed who was building some minor defensive stats but had an ad of at least 200.
but isn't this perfect conditions for zed?
Low armor and high hp I mean.
Isnt this type of build one that bruisers do and get hosed lategame?? Or is that wrong in your opinion, as in it shouldn't be allowed
The reason why this is too much damage is this: Zed is a burst assassin.
What kind of burst assassin should be allowed to kill targets with 4k HP and 100 or more armor in that amount of time?
maybe zed isn't just a burst assassin. Or would being anything more be too much?
This damage comes from the keystones riot introduced last time they reworked the mastery system. The reason tanks seem so out of place this season is because all of the power of keystones got shoved into the ferocity/cunning trees and if you're not running DFT, fervor or thunderlords then you're either doing something off meta or you're playing a tanky character.
how much damage did the keystone do in under 6 seconds exactly...
The keystones riot made for tanks are borderline useless for most tank characters. Hell, there isn't even a keystone that does anything to boost armor. The only tank keystone that benefits the TANK (not the bruiser or support) is strenght of the ages, and that's, at maximum, a raw ~300 hp. This doesn't compare in the slightest to the power given to damage champions in the other keystones.
I don't even use strength of ages on tanks.. I use the other 2 kindof exclusively unless its a jungler. They seem to work fine to me. Regaining %hp makes my armor go further and reducing damage by some% is the whole point of getting armor to begin with for most champs