I mean, the philosophy of "poor waveclear is a trade off for high Champion damage" hasn't been a thing for years, yet he still has some of the worst last-hitting in the game. I love Swain, but watching the new kids easily out CS me is aggravating as fuck.
Ultîma5 votesI hope Swain's rework makes him more... tactical.
We have two bird generals in this game, and the one deemed ''The master tactician'' has the most balls-to-the-wall play pattern of most characters in the game. Hopefully they expand on some of that cage-and-kill play pattern already present with his root.
Kitten of Evil3 votes
: "If we approach strategically from the flank... oh who am I kidding, let's just morph and eat them!"
Green Bean 594 votesyes please
ChaddyFantome3 votesI dont think last hitting is so much an issue with swain as it is just wave clear because his only AoE is his W which is maxed last. Maybe more incentive can be put towards maxing it first, because all things considered, it has high base damage and scaling, something most people don seem to notice. But he gives up a great deal up pressure by using it.
His wave clear also dramatically increased once he hits 6 .
Strawberrycocoa5 votesHuh, I usually max W second after E, because Q's tether can be broken easily by simply running away. Plus it adds more burst damage to capturing enemy champions, which helps.
ChaddyFantome2 votesHuh, I usually max W second after E, because Q's tether can be broken easily by simply running away. Plus it adds more burst damage to capturing enemy champions, which helps.
Maxing Q increases the slow which when used on a target after catching them with W can easily be put near them to keep them in it longer.
I usually put an extra point into W early on just because tho.
Awoof2 votesI think the earlier wave clear is of greater value honestly. I'd also argue Q into W is more logical than W into Q, but in any case if you hit both you're not really losing out on damage anyways.
ChaddyFantome1 votesI think the earlier wave clear is of greater value honestly. I'd also argue Q into W is more logical than W into Q, but in any case if you hit both you're not really losing out on damage anyways.
Q into W is like arguing E>Q as Lux is better because it lets u land W easier.
The difference is that it is easier for them to break out of your Q that way, and even if they don't you lose quite some damage that way since it doesn't get amp'd by your E.
Arakadia1 votesI had an idea with his Q, which would give him a bit more waveclear.
Q: Swain has Beatrice fly foward, croaking a horrible cry. At max range or upon hitting an enemy unit, Beatrice damages and slows the first enemy units hit. This ability is small AoE upon reaching max range or hitting a unit, similar to Karma Q. If the target in inflicted with Torment, Beatrice saps movement speed which is transfered to Swain and creates a tether that, if the targets stay in range for the full duration, will last longer. The one thing is this would a big nerf because minions would block the Q, unlike now.
Strawberrycocoa3 votesWe've already lost so many good skills to the Skillshot Conversion agenda, I'd hate to see Swain lose his status as a point-click spellcaster. Point-Click targeted spells are one of the only things that help mobile assassins retain counterplay, and every time we lose one mobility-based champions receive another indirect buff.
The game NEEDS champs like Swain that can quickly click a spell onto an enemy before they dash back to a whole other direction without having to aim or gauge for minion blocking first.
ChaddyFantome3 votesWe've already lost so many good skills to the Skillshot Conversion agenda, I'd hate to see Swain lose his status as a point-click spellcaster. Point-Click targeted spells are one of the only things that help mobile assassins retain counterplay, and every time we lose one mobility-based champions receive another indirect buff.
The game NEEDS champs like Swain that can quickly click a spell onto an enemy before they dash back to a whole other direction without having to aim or gauge for minion blocking first.
While this is true, you have to think of the reverse. It is equally BS to have too many point-and-click abilities, particularly on an individual champion, because it is equally BS if the assassin is completely unable to do anything at all because the enemy can just click on them.
Now I am not saying this necessarily applies to Swain. I just think people tend to not look at things from both perspectives. Having the inherent ability to shut someone down all together with one button with little decision making is BS regardless of who is on the receiving end.
Strawberrycocoa1 votesIt's probably about the same amount of bullshit as being completely unable to retaliate because high-mobility Assassins dodge around skillshots and avoid taking damage entirely. To me completely negating return fire damage because you are mobile and hard to hit is bigger bullshit than a character having to gauge whether they can afford to eat point-click return fire before they strike.
Negating the enemy's ability to fight back is much harsher than having to attack with the knowledge that you will take some return fire in trade for your attack.
ChaddyFantome2 votesIt's probably about the same amount of bullshit as being completely unable to retaliate because high-mobility Assassins dodge around skillshots and avoid taking damage entirely. To me completely negating return fire damage because you are mobile and hard to hit is bigger bullshit than a character having to gauge whether they can afford to eat point-click return fire before they strike.
Negating the enemy's ability to fight back is much harsher than having to attack with the knowledge that you will take some return fire in trade for your attack.
That is the bias perception of being on the receiving end of it. For an assassin, who has to run into danger and harms way every time to do their job, its bullshit, because when they dodge your spells, they are doing so with skill and timing.
Whereas a mage is safe and can easily bust people from a distance.
To call Assassins more bullshit just because..they jump on you? is silly to me. As an Assassin, one miscalculation can more often than not be a lose of even your death, as being an Assassin and failing to contribute is just as bad as dying. And being completely unable to do anything and contribute at all because a champ can just click on you is far more apt for being called BS than an Assassin properly using their mobility to avoid your skills.
I mean, then you have BS like Yasuo but that is a difference story all together.
Strawberrycocoa2 votesIt's mostly Yasuo I'm thinking of, to be honest. XD The other assassins are frustrating, but manageable. Even Zed, king of mobility and flanking attacks, is much more manageable than he used to be.
You're right, though, I'm not being fully fair. At the end of the day if I get dived on and they avoid my skillshots, that's just good old fashioned "outplaying". Again, except Yasuo, because .1 second cooldown dash is dumb. XD
ChaddyFantome2 votesIt's mostly Yasuo I'm thinking of, to be honest. XD The other assassins are frustrating, but manageable. Even Zed, king of mobility and flanking attacks, is much more manageable than he used to be.
You're right, though, I'm not being fully fair. At the end of the day if I get dived on and they avoid my skillshots, that's just good old fashioned "outplaying". Again, except Yasuo, because .1 second cooldown dash is dumb. XD
Forget his E.
WindWall is BS.
And his Passive is just dumb. Or rather, his SECOND passive, because he gets two for some damn reason. lol
Yasuo is what I call the MeleeCarry conundrum,( and should be lumped with champs like Yi, Fiora, Tryndemere, not Zed, Talon or Fizz.) where they make a bunch of broken champs with the ability to just not take damage and kill everyone and everything they want. its stupid.
Strawberrycocoa2 votesWindwall would be much more balanced it it had a limit on how many projectiles it blocked and/or didn't block minion projectiles or something.
Awoof2 votesWhile I agree, an ability that breaks when they actually dash away doesn't really fulfill this need you're describing.
Arakadia2 votesYep! I agree totally. I didn't even think about that. I was just thinking that Swains spells were kinda "Fire and forget" and you couldn't dodge most of them. Swain feels a bit unhealthy atm, but I agree 100%!
ChaddyFantome1 votesI had an idea with his Q, which would give him a bit more waveclear.
Q: Swain has Beatrice fly foward, croaking a horrible cry. At max range or upon hitting an enemy unit, Beatrice damages and slows the first enemy units hit. This ability is small AoE upon reaching max range or hitting a unit, similar to Karma Q. If the target in inflicted with Torment, Beatrice saps movement speed which is transfered to Swain and creates a tether that, if the targets stay in range for the full duration, will last longer. The one thing is this would a big nerf because minions would block the Q, unlike now.
You copy/pasted this off of the damn PBE >__>
Arakadia1 voteslol yeah...
Arakadia3 votesAs another Swain main, I agree!
RisenDarkKnight3 votes100% this.
Are2 votesI thought they give him shitty CS capabilities because of how much of a monster he becomes. Similar to Anivia. They need to refocus his power if that's going to be the case.
Strawberrycocoa2 votesThat's the design philosophy I was referring to, yeah. And it isn't applicable anymore in modern-day League, when so many of the Assassins can become monsters when fed, yet get to have strong waveclear and farming capabilities.
SpaghettiTime2 votesHis ult only hits 3 enemies at once it still takes a while to wave clear with it.
bulletbear2 votesHell if they only make his auto attacks not so shitty. It will be a 100% successful rework for me
Evewynn2 votesEspecially since his passive revolves around farming well.
MadDoughnutz2 votesHey, played him on the PBE. He has a lot more wave clear then his current form does due to two changes.
The first being his Q, the raven tether, now latches on to a new target in-range whenever the current target dies or moves away, and it's damage is doubled against non-champs. 2-3 points in it and it can clear the back line of caster creeps rather easily.
The second being that his Ult now sends out 5 ravens instead of 3, all of it dealing full damage to minions, although he heals even less off them then currently(Only 15% heal per creep).
Hope this satisifies you Swain mains!
Strawberrycocoa1 votesI'm pleased! That sounds like fun stuff. :D
That healing change to his ult isn't even really a nerf. 3 ravens at 25% vs 5 ravens at 15% are both 75% of the total damage dealt by one flock.
t0ad51 votesCareful what you wish for; he may be the next adc experiment.
Strawberrycocoa1 votesI don't understand.
Arakadia1 votesomfg no please rito...
Saianna1 votesThey will most likely take his root away for a second slow....
Strawberrycocoa1 votesUgh... gross. :(
Crowe Stalker1 votesEven getting Tyrant Swain doesn't alleviate his slow auto woes...
About the only three champions harder to CS with are
(25 health execute on those stars is really awkward Riot...)
(those autos are almost painful in lane...)
and 
if you never used Lay Waste.
Blitzidious1 votesIt seems like his changes are removing his dueling potential, as the slow is minimal, and the radius is far too short. Enemies can quite simply walk out of the AOE, and only take a single tick of damage.
Strawberrycocoa1 votesGoing off your assessment, it sounds to me like catching them inside Nevermove is more important than before, now. Possibly even using the slow radius as a post-W measure to keep them in a location after the root ends.
