and riot hasnt even adressed the issue as if its not a problem for month since before preseason.
2600 gold for a zeal item.
2600 fucking gold in the lane with the most potential for gold generation. can we get 2600 gold atmas impaler back? because apparantly we dont give a shit about cost effectiveness of items anymore.
Śhunpo5 votesNah, bring back Heart of Gold <3
Critmaster Garen10 votesNah, bring back Heart of Gold <3
but the version with armor please. i want my lategame at 15 minutes too.
Akali is SO HOT2 votesDidn't they make it so that Shiv and RFC no longer stacked at like the end of Season 5? Why would they undo that?
Salron2 votesThey never undid it The thing is they added this to RFC that makes them an issue now
NEW EFFECT: Basic attacks becomes Energized 25% faster
Akali is SO HOT1 votesSo basically people are getting the RFC effect first and then the Shiv effect right after?
Salron4 votesNo All energized effects run on the same buff icon above your abilities (Formerly) Warlords + Shiv + RFC and now Fleet is just too strong of a combo with RFC's passive that makes makes energized charge faster Before they added that to RFC, Shiv and RFC as a combo were a non issue
Akali is SO HOT1 votesOh so they don't stack, but they just get the the effects up faster
SH Azykan1 votesyeah the effect is up faster and you get the RFC increased auto range with the stattik proc
Z3Sleeper1 votesExactly they don't fully stack. Dunno what the issue is I always see it as a pointless combo to buy.
General Esdeath 1 votesShiv up 25% faster with more range? Yeah nothing wrong here.
Z3Sleeper1 votesLosing RFC's 120 damage? Agreed nothing wrong here.
General Esdeath 2 votesExcept Shiv does more damage...
Z3Sleeper1 votesIt does sure, but PD also reduces damage taken and gives a ton more ms.
And Runaan's lets you hit 2 additional targets while proccing all on-hits to include lifesteal.
I'm well aware the combination of the two is a totally viable option. But that's it, an option. There are other equally viable options for other niches. I haven't seen anyone build both in a long time and probably for good reason (noone builds 2 zeal items ever anymore).
General Esdeath 1 votesPD doesn't deal bonus burst damage, which is what most marksmen want this patch.
Hurricane is really situational. The only champs I've seen use it are 
and 
and only because they're champions with an on-hit- type playstyle and bad wavelcear.
Poske1 votesyes but the damage doesnt combine..
Its like buying trinity + iceborn
General Esdeath 1 votesBut you're not doing it for the damage to combine. They each have a pro and a con. Shiv has more damage but longer charge and aoe, RFC has more range and charges faster but is less damage. You're getting the pros of them and putting them together. Imagine getting trinity and IBG and getting an aoe slow after an auto after a spell scaling with base AD and armor.
Häxel1 votesthe thing is that not only you get it to stack faster as exchange of loogsing rfc dmg, ypu get a long range chain lightning that can crit (and both items give together 60% crit) and apply to towers (rfc can apply its damage t towers, shiv not, both together can again). 25% faster is what got changed and made more people to buy both. i don't think it needs to be removed (maybe, just maybe, nerfed but not totaly removed). Cause at the same time you loose the effects of pd or runans if you buy these 2.
Z3Sleeper1 votesi don't think it needs to be removed (maybe, just maybe, nerfed but not totaly removed). Cause at the same time you loose the effects of pd or runans if you buy these 2.
Pretty much what I mean. I'm not saying RFC + Shiv is bad, I'm saying it's not any better than any other combination of 2 zeal items.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesit is better than any other combo that's why every fucking adc main buys those two items together.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesLosing 120 dmg for more warlord heal proccs and more shyv dmg procc and more longer range proccs. Pretty good tradeoff if you use your brain.
Velasan2 votesThey used to actually stack so they could go off together when they first introduced RFC which created this cool build of zooming around the map and hitting enemy champions with lightning bursts. You had to lose a lot of AD because you were building two attack speed items, but it was fun.
People complained, they removed it.
Then they brought it back with the current synergies, nerfed, and people still complain. What is it that is so awful about those items being able to work together? Having both items is a considerable trade off vs. getting something else that would increase your damage with AD (like essence reaver, infinity edge, cleaver or dusk blade... sometimes ghost blade depending on the champion). If we are talking about late game full build then sure... but by then everyone has everything and so the cost of said items is kind of pointless.
Idk, if I was going to complain it would be about lethality and not the interaction between zeal items and fleet for the "charged" bonus.
Hópe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0HJpXphQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-05T00:09:57.354+0000)
and riot hasnt even adressed the issue as if its not a problem for month since before preseason.
2600 gold for a zeal item.
2600 fucking gold in the lane with the most potential for gold generation. can we get 2600 gold atmas impaler back? because apparantly we dont give a shit about cost effectiveness of items anymore.
I understand you think its stupid but if 2.6k for a zeal item is too ''cost effective'' then the same thing can be said about Duskblade at 2.55 with arguably the best power spike in the game that early.
I think Stattik shiv needs a decrease in damage if critical strike on champions but not minions. Id rather see the damage go down than the price get adjusted because either way when they get it it hurts.
Critmaster Garen9 votesI understand you think its stupid but if 2.6k for a zeal item is too ''cost effective'' then the same thing can be said about Duskblade at 2.55 with arguably the best power spike in the game that early.
I think Stattik shiv needs a decrease in damage if critical strike on champions but not minions. Id rather see the damage go down than the price get adjusted because either way when they get it it hurts.
stacking rapid fire and stattic creates exactly the type of damage marksmen arent supposed to have access to. reliable burst. but it doesnt stop there, since crit builds also provide massive sustained damage. so they essentially get both.
imo they could give stattic the sunfire treatment and make its damage shit against champions and only good against minions to make its passive little more than a waveclear tool.
they still need to ramp up the price of zeal items. they should at least cost 200 gold more.
maybe lethality items also need a 100 gold price increase to tune their snowballing down. but right now its mostly bot laners with lethality who snowball to hell, when its not bot laners with crit.
one winning fight in bot lane and its turret first blood, often champion first blood bonus with gold off 2 champion kills. and then they give marksmen dirt cheap items on top of it all. of yourse other lanes are going to struggle to get any agency over the game other than as glorified supports.
Hópe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0HJpXphQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-01-05T00:43:19.988+0000)
stacking rapid fire and stattic creates exactly the type of damage marksmen arent supposed to have access to. reliable burst. but it doesnt stop there, since crit builds also provide massive sustained damage. so they essentially get both.
imo they could give stattic the sunfire treatment and make its damage shit against champions and only good against minions to make its passive little more than a waveclear tool.
they still need to ramp up the price of zeal items. they should at least cost 200 gold more.
maybe lethality items also need a 100 gold price increase to tune their snowballing down. but right now its mostly bot laners with lethality who snowball to hell, when its not bot laners with crit.
one winning fight in bot lane and its turret first blood, often champion first blood bonus with gold off 2 champion kills. and then they give marksmen dirt cheap items on top of it all. of yourse other lanes are going to struggle to get any agency over the game other than as glorified supports.
I dont think nerfing the price of zeal items is a good idea. Lethality users already own bot lane, Why would we want to nerf Cait ashe sivir jinx ( all with lower win rates ) even more?
I feel as if nerfing the damage of stattik shiv on champions is the better way to go, Because when an adc finishes the item 100g or 200g later it still will hurt like a bitch.
id rather just flat out nerf the damage
Critmaster Garen4 votesI dont think nerfing the price of zeal items is a good idea. Lethality users already own bot lane, Why would we want to nerf Cait ashe sivir jinx ( all with lower win rates ) even more?
I feel as if nerfing the damage of stattik shiv on champions is the better way to go, Because when an adc finishes the item 100g or 200g later it still will hurt like a bitch.
id rather just flat out nerf the damage
and this is the problem with marksman balance right here.
they find a cheesy way to abuse lethality, and the reaction is to buff crit items to make crit marksmen be able to keep up with them. marksmen are only ever compared to each other and how they push each other around in the same lane.
you entirely forget that theyre too strong compared to the rest of the game.
lethality marksmen and crit marksmen both need to get hit. nerfing zeal items by 200 gold at least increases their crit rush build by 400 gold and delays their power spike a couple of minutes.
Hópe2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0HJpXphQ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-05T05:32:54.865+0000)
and this is the problem with marksman balance right here.
they find a cheesy way to abuse lethality, and the reaction is to buff crit items to make crit marksmen be able to keep up with them. marksmen are only ever compared to each other and how they push each other around in the same lane.
you entirely forget that theyre too strong compared to the rest of the game.
lethality marksmen and crit marksmen both need to get hit. nerfing zeal items by 200 gold at least increases their crit rush build by 400 gold and delays their power spike a couple of minutes.
I dont think ADCs are as strong as you make them out to be. Yes i think lethality needs a nerf as a whole ( especially with cases like MF ) But nerfing zeal items is not a smart idea either.
Your argument is adcs do too much damage right now, right? I think EVERY one does too much damage right now, Lulus glitterlance chunks in lane at level 2, Blitzcranks R will frequently do atleast a quarter of an adcs health in lane, Tanks are doing extreme damage.
Its not just adcs its everyone right now.
Critmaster Garen3 votesI dont think ADCs are as strong as you make them out to be.
theyre hitting their main power spike by midgame (which is now 15 minutes). theyve been busted as fuck for almost the entire season 7, and since the preseason patch hit, riot still hasnt addressed them.
Hópe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0HJpXphQ,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-05T06:25:41.514+0000)
theyre hitting their main power spike by midgame (which is now 15 minutes). theyve been busted as fuck for almost the entire season 7, and since the preseason patch hit, riot still hasnt addressed them.
And gangplank is getting tri-force at 12 minutes.
Like i said, i tried to discuss with you but it seems you're just biased against adcs, saying ''theyre hitting their power spikes at 15 minutes'' is a VERY misleading statement because of one thing, while it is true, you are also failing to address that everyone is hitting their mid spike earlier. Not just adcs.
Critmaster Garen1 votesAnd gangplank is getting tri-force at 12 minutes.
Like i said, i tried to discuss with you but it seems you're just biased against adcs, saying ''theyre hitting their power spikes at 15 minutes'' is a VERY misleading statement because of one thing, while it is true, you are also failing to address that everyone is hitting their mid spike earlier. Not just adcs.
thats due to his gold generation passive obviously and part of why gangplank has been the strongest top laner over and over and over multiple times. hes the exception, not the rule.
other carry types dont hit their power spikes as early as adc, since their items are just more expensive and there is not as much potential for gold generation in other lanes.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesFunny, gangplank has always gotten tri force around the 12 minute mark in a not shitty lane. Sometimes even at 10 minutes if you could score some kills with ult but nice try trying to change the topic.
Sincerely, a GP main.
Hópe1 votesFunny, gangplank has always gotten tri force around the 12 minute mark in a not shitty lane. Sometimes even at 10 minutes if you could score some kills with ult but nice try trying to change the topic.
Sincerely, a GP main.
So if you were getting triforce at around 12 minutes before the preseason then Klepto adds around 400-500g before the 12 minute mark and with futures market you get 200g debt limit at 10 minutes exactly, thats about 700g.
So you're now getting klepto before 10 minutes which further proves my point that everyone is scaling faster, not just adcs.
Sincerely, a person who uses logic.
Daddy Ants2 votesI dont think ADCs are as strong as you make them out to be. Yes i think lethality needs a nerf as a whole ( especially with cases like MF ) But nerfing zeal items is not a smart idea either.
Your argument is adcs do too much damage right now, right? I think EVERY one does too much damage right now, Lulus glitterlance chunks in lane at level 2, Blitzcranks R will frequently do atleast a quarter of an adcs health in lane, Tanks are doing extreme damage.
Its not just adcs its everyone right now.
If 
even has 1 AP item you can expect his R to half health an ADC.
DETONATION MAGIC DAMAGE: 250 / 375 / 500 (+ 100% AP)
That base damage and ratio is insane for a champion that's considered a support.
Hópe1 votesIf
DETONATION MAGIC DAMAGE: 250 / 375 / 500 (+ 100% AP)
That base damage and ratio is insane for a champion that's considered a support.
Yep and now that support items commonly come with AP attached its not hard for supports to build damage while building utility. ( Their core items that is )
Not trying to complain just saying blitzcrank in general has half healthed me multiple times with just R
LordGeovanni1 votesId rather they take away 5% attack speed because riot doesnt need to give it a gold nerf and then use that later to say Statik shiv isnt doing too good (like thats ever gonna happen more like its still built every game but we want it to have more impact the same way they buff the only permanent mandatory class) we are gonna increase the stats rather than revert the gold nerf because thats how they balance for adcs
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesI really think the best way to deal with adcs is to lower their overall AD gain and AS. Make them have more impact early fine but they need to stop 3 shotting everyone at 3 items. Make them actually sustained dmg so no more 3-400 AD critting for up to 1.2k dmg depending on the adc.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesMake long swords cost 400 gold. Jaurim and phage unchanged. Serrated dirk to 1200. Caulfield 1200. Duskblade 3k instead of 2.9k. Fixed.
Zeal items MINIMUM 2.8 and 2.9 for PD.
Śhunpo3 votesWell yeah, Duskblade is also a major problem. It's just the fact that AD assassins can't exactly 1v5 an entire team and 1-3 shot most of them.
JIDF Operative1 votesI would be happy to see Duskblade be made less cost effective tbh
Daunt2 votesWell nobody is saying that Duskblade isn't stupid as well. The item is overloaded af and too cost efficient.
Troll for Trump3 votesIsn't duskblade 2.9k
Tails90162 votesIt is, but I think he's implying that most assassins who rush it start 
, so that pretty much takes of 350 gold.
Altiverse1 votesI don't see how the stacking component on its own is a problem. Considering you have Statikk, the cost efficiency of RFC is -450g, which you only get +150 range and 25% increase for.
That being said, Statikk costing only 2.6k with that incredible passive sure is a problem.
Lùmen1 votesAt release, they stacked and it was OP so Riot nerfed them so they won't stack. Not sure why they reverted it tho
Void Baboon RF1 votesIt isn't when you realize Riot's balance team consists of ADC players, a riven player and a janna player who pretends to be a real player by occasionally picking an ADC.
/
Lethality
Lethality / Any singular zeal item except Runaans
Lethality / 
- no real frequent build patterns, they build everything
