Mordekaiser needs a niche before he can be reworked again

Big Lincoln··29 votes·2,811 views

This is, I think, the most jarring thing about Mordekaiser's rework in a nutshell. Among the Juggernauts, Mordekaiser just doesn't seem to fit in. He has the worst base stats of his group, he's the least mobile, and his play-style is the least satisfying (Skarner is a close second). Worse, he seems to have a very confused build path with hybrid ratios and AD items offering little in actual optimizing for himself.

For comparison, here's what I think the other Juggernauts excel at; why you would want to pick them.

Darius

  • Janitor; he's built around completely decimating anyone near him and having ridiculous clean-up power if he can activate his passive.

Garen

  • Anti-Carry; his ultimate's passive gives him good comeback potential if he can get close enough to use it.

Skarner

  • Kidnapper; he has the high moment of being able to steal a high priority target and run them into his team.

Illaoi

  • Monstrous damage/set-up; Has the potential to go completely HAM on the enemy team if she can get her tentacles out or land a good ult. Probably the best of them to pick if you want to wombo combo because of the damage she can output in a very short period of time.

Mordekaiser doesn't really have any solid identity in comparison; his passive as it stands gives him artificial tankiness, but the fast decay rate makes him want to emphasize on being able to capitalize on short bursts of shields (encourages damage). He's also lost the identity of being an AoE damage pump like he once was; in addition to his new Q being single-target, every other juggernaut has an AoE threat, usually centered around themselves. He's in a weird mix between an attempt at sustained damage with a lot of his old burst gameplay still being apparent.

I think the biggest issue here is the disconnect between theme and gameplay; Mord doesn't have any level of satisfaction to how he builds, because he can't really take advantage of it outside of just sponging more damage. Darius's damage ramps up; Mordekaiser's goes up and then drops like a rock when his Q is on cooldown. His E is a really weird pseudo-defensive move now; the damage itself is okay but nothing worth looking at twice, and the % bonus of shield is where the value in it lies. His W "promotes" team play by refusing him the option to have the damage when isolated, and his ultimate is probably the only thing that really defines him properly -- the power to drain tank fights and get a noticeable spike in power if he gets a ghost. I feel like this isn't the greatest thing; Mordekaiser's DPS is entirely based around whether he can gain a ghost, and he still retains his 100-0 burst playstyle otherwise. I think Riot should focus him more into high sustained damage and immensely superior durability, as his burst combo consistently proves both unfair and unfun.

If Riot ever planned another rework for him in the same vein, I would like Mordekaiser to function as a super-lifestealer; where he'll rob not just your health, but your armor, your MR, your damage. In return, you could play with his kit; give his E a charge that offers up range, maybe leaves behind an AoE that saps you while you fight him on it, make his W steal defenses from every champion who stands in it, and so on. Somewhat like Trundle, but in a less binary package and tied to the theme of a super-juggernaut who completely refuses to die. Fighting him for an extended period of time should be dangerous; Mordekaiser will make you squishier while becoming more and more durable himself. I don't think his dragon ghost is a well-thought mechanic; it's good siege but it's incredibly unreliable and the ghost itself has wonky controls. If this is a factor that takes up some of his power budget, I'd rather see it doled out to the rest of his kit.

Just a thought. I'm no Malicious Metal but the idea's been appealing to me for long enough I thought I'd write it.

40 Comments

Maximum Morde12 votes

TLDR, his niche for me right now is to piss my team off by picking him. He is far superior to disco Nunu in this role because I won't get banned for doing it, unlike Disco Nunu.

Retillin4 votes

Is... is that not the niche Riot picked for him...?

ltmetal4 votes

Niches that Morde is oh-so-close to filling but will need changes to get there:

  1. Drain Tank - Gets tankier by damaging his enemies
  2. AP Juggernaut - Builds AP and does primarily magic damage (closest to this, but still just not quite there)
  3. Anti-Assassin - Replaces ADC, giving enemy assassin no squishy target to dive
  4. Short Range Meat Grinder - Similar to full lifesteal Riven, tons of AoE damage that is sustained better the more enemies there are in melee range

Ironically, old Mordekaiser fulfilled ALL of these niches. I would love to see a re-rework that sees the design team playing up at least one of these traits, but I honestly believe that won't happen for 2-3 more years.

DeathBurst2 votes

I agree with all your points, except that the 2 is actually filled and not "oh-so-close" imho.

The problem with the 3 is that, without your shield up, you are not so tanky and may die in an assassin burst if he catches you off guard. EDIT: and also, even if YOU are not squishy, it's still good to have an heavy AD champ somewhere else in your team comp, like a Fiora/Riven top, a Kindred jungle, something like that.

Wyrmblade2 votes

I think he'd be best as a meatgrinder, really slow, but wrecks everything he gets in range of. He's actually already an AP juggenaut, AD builds suck on him.

Count Zubat3 votes

Yes,that should be Mordekaiser's niche - the longer the battle persists, the stronger he gets. He kinda was like that before - he would just burst someone to get ghost and sustain himself 'till he kills everybody. He should be like that, just with sustained damage instead of hyper burst. I completely agree, make him leech life forces from enemies around. Oh, and dump that stupid "adc substitute" Morde already, Rito, pls.

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EmLanOz,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-10T21:53:40.326+0000)

Yes,that should be Mordekaiser's niche - the longer the battle persists, the stronger he gets. He kinda was like that before - he would just burst someone to get ghost and sustain himself 'till he kills everybody. He should be like that, just with sustained damage instead of hyper burst. I completely agree, make him leech life forces from enemies around. Oh, and dump that stupid "adc substitute" Morde already, Rito, pls.

Thats not a balanceable niche and doesn't really even count as one, all Juggernauts do that

Big Lincoln2 votes

not really, no

it's applicable to Darius because his damage ramps up with how much time he spends hitting someone

Garen is very up front burst, and Illaoi's strength comes from how many people she can land her ult on. Skarner is just very DPS-y but his damage is relatively static

Mord should be the inverse of Darius; low sticking power, but instead of his damage ramping up, his durability does

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EmLanOz,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-12-11T14:00:08.640+0000)

not really, no

it's applicable to Darius because his damage ramps up with how much time he spends hitting someone

Garen is very up front burst, and Illaoi's strength comes from how many people she can land her ult on. Skarner is just very DPS-y but his damage is relatively static

Mord should be the inverse of Darius; low sticking power, but instead of his damage ramping up, his durability does

The entire concept behind Juggernauts is that they have to be avoided because they ramp up super quickly in short range fights. Mordekaiser honestly ramps up the least by far out of all the Juggernauts.

"garen is upfront burst"

All Juggernauts are that, but they still ramp up.

Morde has no burst, no sticking power, and barely any ramp up. Hes shit.

"Darius has low sticking power"

Uh what

His W + E give him enough sticking power to destroy someone, hell all Juggernauts except for Darius have sticking power up the wazoo

Big Lincoln1 votes

Mord should be the inverse of Darius;

i.e Mord has low sticking power. Darius is extremely hard to get off once he gets going.

Garen doesn't ramp up damage wise; he wants to kill you immediately, then back off and regen after. Skarner can stay in a fight for longer, but his damage doesn't really ramp up past the bonus damage on Q.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EmLanOz,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-11T16:17:38.968+0000)

i.e Mord has low sticking power. Darius is extremely hard to get off once he gets going.

Garen doesn't ramp up damage wise; he wants to kill you immediately, then back off and regen after. Skarner can stay in a fight for longer, but his damage doesn't really ramp up past the bonus damage on Q.

The inverse of a juggernaut is an AP control mage, a class Morde has never been and never will be

Garen's passive exists so that he can keep running at you over and over, its not meant to be a "hit you then run away"

Big Lincoln1 votes

the inverse of high sticking power is low sticking power. don't be so willfully dense.

and garen's passive requires time to heal up. he picks someone off, then heals up and goes back in.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EmLanOz,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-11T19:31:15.864+0000)

the inverse of high sticking power is low sticking power. don't be so willfully dense.

and garen's passive requires time to heal up. he picks someone off, then heals up and goes back in.

Suck it up and realize that Mordekaiser is garbage and will always be garbage. Pick a better champion to fanboy over.

terkmc3 votes

For me, Morde was about two things

Tankiness. He's the overlord in magically enchanted heavy armor, and his shield gain showed it, allowing him to shrug off mortal's puny attempt at killing him like it was nothing. He was intimidating to face, because unlike other Juggernaut who you can still see the amount of damage you are dealing to them, fighting Mordekaiser just have this sense of dread creeping up the back of your head as you realize his health bar is not decreasing, you haven't broken through his shield yet, which mean through out the fight you haven't been able to even damage him yet. This was scary and imposing

AOE Damage: Morde was what I called a walking wasteland. Everything that comes near him died slow and painful death. His low cd aoe spell means Mordekaiser is always surround by a maelstrom of metal shards flying everywhere, constantly damaging everything around him with all of his basic spells. This also has a rather metal implication. Morde didn't fight single people, he fought armies, and as such his spell deal swathes of damage, clearing the battlefield in his presence instead of focusing on dueling. His presence and will have an effect on everything around him, all the time, the never-ending constant barrage. His damage was constant, stable and leveled, he was dependable that he has the aoe damage on command

Togekiss242 votes

Playing Morde before his rework, I always thought his niche was "farm up a crap ton of gold in a short amount of time with your balls tied in a knot and annoy your opponent with your insane pushing power, all while ignoring harass with the shield you keep up from attacking."

He always excelled more in the laning phase than he did anywhere else. Did the rework gut him in that regard as well?

Big Lincoln3 votes

pretty much

I don't know how his duo lane is with the current ADC state at bot, but his solo lane is atrocious

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Oh very much so . . . in stats & in playstyle. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread?sort_type=best The more recent patch leveled out the damage on his Q so it doesn't have nearly as much spike damage, but otherwise he never got any compensation beyond the dragon ghost gimmick.

Togekiss242 votes

What the...

I don't even...

WHY did they do this!? I'm not a pro designer but I can't understand what made them think Morde needed that extreme of an identity shift? No wonder the OP is comparing Morde to an ADC.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Yup, this pathetic rework was just a few patches before the game-wide ranged physical carry buff; making his inability to fight even clearer. He was a top lane bully only to anyone foolish enough to sit still infront of him, as he lacked mobility abilities & crowd control of any kind. But they cripple his mobility & damage further without any noticeable compensation. [zombie-brand-facepalm] And yeah, just glancing through all these changes & nearly unanimous comments against this universal nerf, riot did it anyway out of spite. They claim they playtest & pay attention to the boards, but it's painfully obvious they're hypocritical. Things like this are why I don't trust them whatsoever :/

Jotunheimr2 votes

I see it like this for the 3 most common juggernauts: Garen is tank Darius is Bruiser Mord is just the main damage.

I feel like a true juggernaut with Mord, because my early is weak, but my late is powerful.

Try this build out for yourself, for a new way to play new Mord:

Nashor's, Rylias, Guinsoos, Enchanted Swifties, Liandry's, and choose between as last item:

SV/Cleaver/ Ludens/Lich bane/ WotA/Deadmans/Warmogs/Gunblade/ Morello/ BoRK/Sterakks depending on the situation and how fed you are, as well as what you want to build.

Once you have boots, Nashors, Rylias, and Guinsoos, you'll start to snowball if you make smart plays, even if you are behind. Just be ballzy and focus squishies.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

He does have a niche. He's a bot lane carry that hard counters anti-carry teams. Can't dive the adc if there's no adc to dive. Enemy team locks in double assassins? Just play Morde bot and collect freelo.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

You'd have better luck betting on a cripple to win a race at the olympics.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

It works for me. Maybe the problem is you.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Ah you didn't even try to look up at the joke as it flew by.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

You're gonna have to explain it to me then. Even looking back, I have idea what you supposedly meant.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

For reference to glance through; in short he was nerfed hard, then a couple patches later, they buff nearly everyone that would bully him if he went bottom lane. Before his rework he was a mage-tank top lane, similar to chogath, but with more burst than durability. Then riot partially reworks him to benefit from building attack damage, hoping that was enough for him to face some of the most poke heavy champions in the game, without any compensation aside from his dragon ghost gimmick.

My initial comment was a sarcastic joke, as it's rare to face a team that doesn't have 2 ranged physical carries; to a boring extent. He was barely played before, when he was fairly even against most of the common top lane bruisers; but he's been butchered so hard he can't even do what he used to, making him even more unseen. As tower dives are commonplace around 5 minutes now, it's long before he can get his ultimate; making him even weaker against anyone with mobility, poke, or cc. Champions like quin, caitlyn, yasou, or even renekton can towerdive him with ease these days. It's a sad sight to spectate, and painful to play.

More specifically in my comment, I'm referring to mordekaiser to be like the cripple, since he has one of the lowest base movement speeds in the game now. And the regular rift games correlating to the olympics.

Nechronia1 votes

The problem with that niche is that if riot makes another bot lane bruiser champion (which I hope they do because as much as I dislike the morde changes I would like more variance in botlane) then wouldn't that champion also fall into the same niche?

SettDownShutUp2 votes

I'm not sure it's been drilled in enough, let's make sure.

Stars Shaper2 votes

He should be an unstoppable drain heavy hitter. His perk being demolishing teams with his AoE and declaring the target to kill setting a 6vs4. He only needs his damage to be better distributed plus some inbuilt tenacity/higher base stats.

Ralanr1 votes

The niche you described is a drain tank, which is Trundle's thing.

The image of him using AoE's looks pretty awesome in my mind though.

Big Lincoln1 votes

I did list him as being that

I think he fits the theme better than Trundle and can also be made to be much less binary as a champion. I'm trying to figure out how to differentiate them enough that Mordekaiser's AoE shredding doesn't completely nullify Trundle's existence, but I think Trundle offering more utility and better split-pushing might compensate?

Ralanr1 votes

Since I don't main Mordekaiser I can't say much about him with good accuracy.

But some key things that should be considered when talking about him (imo):

He is a caster. His spells are his main source of damage (his not an AA champion from what I gather)

He's supposed to be durable. That armor shouldn't be tin. He's part fighter so that means he should be somewhat durable.

He's intimidating. Look at Mordekaiser. Do you ever want to run into someone like that on a battlefield? Or anywhere?

He's a king. Call him a tyrant, an overlord, or a dictator. Mordekaiser is a ruler and a conqueror. But he's not the kind that puts his followers before him. No, he's the kind that uses them as tools. He doesn't even want them stronger, just useful.

They should take him out of bot. He's not fun to support with and he needs someone tankier than him to support him if he ADCs. I'd rather have him in midlane. Those assassins could use a wall to remind them that they're squishy.

Big Lincoln1 votes

I'd like Mordekaiser to be an AA-caster hybrid. His auto attacks need to have some 'oomph' to them, either in the form of an AA modifier or passive damage, or just being encouraged to actually invest in AD. He has a giant mace; I think more emphasis could be drawn to it with his Q's damage being appropriated somehow. Sheen items should at least feel like a good choice on him.

I feel like the idea of stealing stats from opponents is one that's appropriately thematic for him. "No pain, no drain;" making longer fights seem hopeless because you can't even punch through his armor. That's something I'd want to play.

Ralanr1 votes

You don't need AA reliance to draw emphasis to a weapon. Pantheon's main damage is in his abilities and those are centered around his weapons. Sion's rework purposefully made it so there was an ability that interacted with his axe.

Big Lincoln1 votes

I've never been a fan of the Sion/Poppy approach to it. (Sion is one of my favorite tanks for everything else though and he executes this a lot better than Poppy does)

When I have a really big, brutal looking weapon, I at least want an ability that involves hitting opponents directly with it.

DeathBurst1 votes

{quoted} They should take him out of bot. He's not fun to support with and he needs someone tankier than him to support him if he ADCs. I'd rather have him in midlane. Those assassins could use a wall to remind them that they're squishy.

I disagree. I played a lot of Mordekaiser bot recently, and Sona works pretty well. Morgana is not too bad either.

True, the playstyle with a Blitz or a Leona is more straightforward (engage and kill), but you can do pretty awesome things (like massively outfarming a Cait when you are melee and her ranged) even with more squishy support.

LocoPineapples1 votes

I always thought of Morde actually having Garen's current niche as an anti-carry, or at least, that's how I used him. He could even out a game where a hyper carry like Yasuo or Jinx snowballed, using their own power against their team to turn it around.

Now, I'd like to see him function as an objective-siege juggernaut. CertainlyT gave him the damn dragon ghost, so at the very least they can play around that gimmick. Giving him the ability to control either the dragon or the herald would give both teams more reason for wanting to take them. For Morde's team, it's a window of opportunity to push back a losing lane or decimate a winning one. For the enemy team, it's to deny Morde the chance to do so.

Big Lincoln5 votes

I really don't like that being his primary focus -- it's a nice tack-on, but focusing him around sieging power he can get every six minutes just.. isn't fun.

I still think Mordekaiser should be the one to have Garen's current W passive. Especially since it's the same amount of armor/MR he lost from his old W.

Poske1 votes

Mordekaiser has a niche Insane passive shield Ultimate Ultimate passive (Dragonlord)

Mordekaiser ultimate is the best for lockdown comps because they can capitalize on it and 6vs4 ... (Think Vi/naut/Zed/liss)

He is only none ADC we saw at botlane. Yes it was forced but still

charcharmunro1 votes

It's odd, really, because Morde is probably the most "true" of the Juggernauts, next to Illaoi. No CC, basically no mobility, fucktons of damage and... Pseudo-tankiness. Honestly, his niche could just be "the Juggernaut of Juggernauts".

More from Gameplay

More by Big Lincoln