why does kallistas rend have a slow?

Critmaster Garen·May 15, 2015·117 votes·10,563 views

serious question. the ability was clearly designed as an execute. after she auto attacked and lodged as many spears as possible into her target, she hits him with a large nuke to finish the champion off.

so why does it need a slow? i know kallista is technically not op, just utterly anoying to play against.

other execute abilites dont have cc attached, in case the player miscalculates. and if you expect rend to finish your target off, a slow doesnt really make sense. so why is it there? wouldnt that be a possibility to remove uneccessary power from her kit, put it somewhere else and make her a little bit less frustrating to deal with?

her kit is already focused on contineous kiting with her jumps, and an extra jump on her q. the slow should really not be necessary. it just feels like its attached onto the ability because reasons, and only serves to make her more frustrating to fight.

108 Comments

Chaotic ReksMay 15, 201533 votes

cause shes a CertainlyT champ and needs to have everything in her kit

RiotAD YuumiMay 16, 201532 votes

I believe CertainlyT put the slow on there to create tension over the decision of when to push Rend. It asks Kalista players, "Do you rend now for the guaranteed utility or do you hold onto it for future Tons-of-Damage.tm but risk your target escaping or catching you/an ally?"

KoboldMay 16, 201538 votes

Really is that the reason to add a slow to a perma-kite-all-melee champ? That seems to me very poor reasoning. She would still be where she is today even without the slow. If I were to want to add utility to her kit it would have been adding vision of target or preventing stealth while impaled, not adding CC to a perma kite kit.

DesideriumMay 16, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Really? That's the reason to add a slow to a perma-kite-all-melee champ? That to me is poor reasoning. She would still be where she is today even without the slow. If I were to want to add utility to her kit it would have been adding vision of target or preventing stealth while impaled, not adding CC to a perma kite kit.

I think it's better than making her more binary by just having damage on it. It's only a "use your stacks" ability in that case.

CertainlyT is a smart guy and knows just about damn near everything about good champion design, but he screwed up a little with Kalista's passive. Even so, he still knew exactly what would counter it (attack speed reduction and heavy burst both destroy Kalista) but when she does work, she's extremely unfun for the game.

ZazushaMay 16, 201520 votes

CertainlyT put a slow on her Rend because He loves overloading kits. If a skill doesn't have a paragraph long description, and/or passive & active effects. Its not designed by CertainlyT.

KoboldMay 16, 20152 votes

I agree he does great at champion design and knows how to do things exceptionally well but as I pointed out on her initial PBE reveal. The passive would create the one of the biggest problems in the game despite its intended purpose (teaching Attack move). The ability by itself seems like a ++ version of Contaminate from twitch which is a problem with the abilities design from the start. The problem is adding any form of CC to her kit except her ultimate breaks things due to the passive. Hence why I suggested granting vision of them by using rend as her AAs don't hit if she loses sight of them. As for attack speed reduction there isnt very much of it really left in the game or just not enough of it to feel impactful as a counter.

To those who downvoted me I said he does great at DESIGN (the concept for the champion and overall goal of the champion and unique style) but not too well on KIT BALANCE (not overloading with extras (this has nothing to do with numbers))

KeevalroyMay 16, 201520 votes

CertainlyT is a smart guy and knows just about damn near everything about good champion design

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

The Vilemaw IconMay 16, 20155 votes

By that logic, giving her the option to stun when an opponent only has 1 stack of rend on them would create even more tension. Doesn't sound like a good enough reason to add that kind of extra utility to a kit.

HellioningMay 16, 201512 votes

Logical, but CertainlyT made one major mistake. It is impossible to catch Kalista.

LuciferMay 16, 201510 votes

{quoted}

I believe CertainlyT put the slow on there to create tension over the decision of when to push Rend. It asks Kalista players, "Do you rend now for the guaranteed utility or do you hold onto it for future Tons-of-Damage.tm but risk your target escaping or catching you/an ally?"

tbh I feel like CertainlyT has an issue of shoving too many mechanics / passives / whatever into champion kits.

MephistophilisMay 16, 20156 votes

In other words, overloading. Can't a damn execute be a simple damn execute? EDIT: Oh i was forgetting she also has a mana refund. Fuck that shit man! This is bananas!

SleepyLionCubMay 16, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I believe CertainlyT put the slow on there to create tension over the decision of when to push Rend. It asks Kalista players, "Do you rend now for the guaranteed utility or do you hold onto it for future Tons-of-Damage.tm but risk your target escaping or catching you/an ally?"

"Which broken aspect of my kit shall I abuse.... Hmm, the kiting? Or the Damage?"

grLKQ9ma0oMay 16, 20156 votes

Ok, but then you get the instant reset with Runaan's hurricane on minions that allows you to get both the slow AND tons of damage. There's no choice.

Mandang0May 15, 201525 votes

CertainlyT. That's why.

UberAffeMay 15, 201523 votes

Personally I think they put it there simply for the perspective that you are getting a bunch of spears violently ripped out of you, you aren't going to be moving to fast after that.

Critmaster GarenMay 15, 201555 votes

{quoted}

Personally I think they put it there simply for the perspective that you are getting a bunch of spears violently ripped out of you, you aren't going to be moving to fast after that.

if were going by that logic, nearly every ability in the game should slow.

youre not going to run very fast after you had a huge chunk bitten out of you by a gigantic void monster, or after your skin was burned off by a gigantic rainbow laser.

UberAffeMay 15, 201523 votes

+1 for gigantic rainbow lasers

but I'm just saying that it was a reasonable thought process for why they added it, not that they need to keep it.

lDontLiftIcarryMay 15, 20152 votes

dubstep lux incoming

TourianMay 15, 20151 votes

He obviously meant Vel'koz. Dubsteb DJ Vel confirmed. Work that table like a bawse

Sinister SnailMay 15, 20153 votes

Actually Vel'koz's ult does apply a 20% slow. Just fyi.

MatezoideMay 15, 201517 votes

Because she clearly needs more kiting power.

Jungle Lux GodMay 16, 201514 votes

More important question: Why was Kallista even created in the first place?

KeevalroyMay 16, 20156 votes

{quoted}

More important question: Why was Kallista even created in the first place?

I've been asking that question since her kit was revealed.

FirstSergeantBimMay 16, 20153 votes

Kalista was created to give new players a champion that would:

Encourage team interaction and be fun
Teach orb walking and be fun

I think she has been a success and she really adds a lot to League. Most people overrate her frustrating nature, it's really not that bad. Vayne can be just as annoying, not only can she roll constantly, but she can go invisible and blast you backwards. LeBlanc is way more oppressive and snowballs much more easily. I could go on, but I won't. There are multiple ways to lock Kali down and she's fun to play with. Her Sentinels are cool, she's fun to watch and if you are her soul-bound, then you have a get-out-of-jail-free card basically every minute or so. What's not to like?

DesideriumMay 16, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Kalista was created to give new players a champion that would:

Encourage team interaction and be fun

Teach orb walking and be fun

I think she has been a success and she really adds a lot to League. Most people overrate her frustrating nature, it's really not that bad. Vayne can be just as annoying, not only can she roll constantly, but she can go invisible and blast you backwards. LeBlanc is way more oppressive and snowballs much more easily. I could go on, but I won't. There are multiple ways to lock Kali down and she's fun to play with. Her Sentinels are cool, she's fun to watch and if you are her soul-bound, then you have a get-out-of-jail-free card basically every minute or so. What's not to like?

Her orb-walking mechanic would be a lot healthier for the game if Kalista's skillcap and potential weren't so high. If she was reworked into a low-skill, medium-impact champion, her passive will be so much better for the game. It's still in an okay spot regardless thanks to the existence of attack speed slows and burst assassins, but when Kalista works, it's extremely unfun.

FirstSergeantBimMay 16, 20151 votes

You say that "when Kalista works, it's extremely unfun" but the thing is that when most champions "work" it's "unfun". The difference between those others champions and Kalista is that her mechanics are less similar to mechanics that are already present in the game. It has absolutely nothing to do with her kit being unfun. You're just biased, imo.

DesideriumMay 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You say that "when Kalista works, it's extremely unfun" but the thing is that when most champions "work" it's "unfun". The difference between those others champions and Kalista is that her mechanics are less similar to mechanics that are already present in the game. It has absolutely nothing to do with her kit being unfun. You're just biased, imo.

No, I'm not. There are TONS of examples of champions that are actually fun and balanced for both parties when they work well.

Zed

Ezreal

Draven

Yasuo

Orianna

Lucian

Bard

Compare to champions like Malzahar, Kalista, Warwick, Poppy, and Shaco who just suck the fun out of the game when they work.

Being unique doesn't exclude a champion from accepting the established norm of being fun to play as, with, and against. Thus exposing YOUR bias.

MephistophilisMay 16, 20156 votes

stopped reading at Zed

Rand0mH3r0XMay 15, 201512 votes

Pantheon : Yeah, Kalista's spears are definetly OP. I stomp on fools to get them CC'd. I throw spears at people, but I guess I never thought to go back up to them and pull it out. Hm.

IceKingChernobogMay 16, 201511 votes

the same reason it gives mana refund, because fuck you that's why...

lojicianMay 15, 201510 votes

She is literally the champion in the game that least needs cc to do her job. Champions need cc to either lock someone down so they can do their damage or to kite. Kalista gets to automatically maintain the perfect ranged gap while consistently dpsing. It's just a big ol riot middle finger to melee.

MajorPain9May 16, 201510 votes

Certainly t champion. We are lucky it's just a slow. I'm sure he was trying to put in a GA effect on her as well.

Aeolian MelodiesMay 16, 20158 votes

CertainlyT champion.

No more needs to be said.

Shroom JunkieMay 15, 20156 votes

I agree. I love Kalista, she's my favorite adc, but the slow I'm going to say is honestly OP. She already has constant dashes for kiting, and a Q for dashing to catch up, why does she also need a slow? Not only is it an execute, but so is her Q. Or, it can be used as one to pass stacks to another unit behind. I just don't think she needs a slow, even maining her as adc.

Drunk RummateMay 15, 20156 votes

Kalista's rend has a slow for the same reason that twitch's contaminate has one Kappa

tl;dr - there is no good reason

SteelflameMay 15, 20153 votes

You mean Twitch's Venom Cask right. You know, the one that does not do a single point of damage other than stacking his passive, and is a pure utility skill? His execute does not have a slow at all.

Drunk RummateMay 15, 20155 votes

No I was joking because Twitch's E doesn't have a slow and essentially functions the same way. The slow is unnecessary on her kit.

Dunkrius2gMay 15, 20156 votes

I agree. Remove the slow. She already have enough escapes, summoner 4 summoner 7 and her kit. This would be the step for a change.

KeevalroyMay 16, 20154 votes

I can probably deal with that change since they're so dead-set on keeping that repulsive hop passive and too stubborn to put a cap on her E. Taking the slow off of it won't hurt the "core theme" of their precious kangaroo ghost.

JeffreyWasFiredMay 16, 20156 votes

Because her PERCENTAGE MAX HEALTH w doesnt do enough damage that's why :P

NeoScoutMay 15, 20152 votes

Riot tends to overload champions with unnecessary things

KeevalroyMay 16, 201510 votes

{quoted}

CertainlyT tends to overload champions with unnecessary things

ftfy

Worst Mid EverMay 15, 20151 votes

what makes you think it is an execute?

Critmaster GarenMay 15, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst Mid Ever,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=05JXrQLN,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-05-15T15:08:41.253+0000)

what makes you think it is an execute?

the way its designed. she deals increased damage by a % the more spears shes got stuck in her target. meaning its an ability thats designed to finish someone off, after she already auto attacked a lot.

in a fight, youd use the ability to nuke the last 20% to 30% of your targets hp.

Worst Mid EverMay 15, 20155 votes

its actually the opposite, each spear beyond the first deals reduced damage (goes from 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 60% AD) to 10 / 14 / 19 / 25 / 32 (+ 20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30% AD) so ideally early game you want to be engaging, getting the soulmark passive off for the % damage then rending to slow and disengage, and in a teamfight you want to be getting as many rends off as possible since the cooldown is nothing once you max it and get runnans, it doesn't do % missing health so it isn't really an execute, only time you would rely on it for that is when you're killing drag/baron and the jungler doesn't have smite

XeroKimoMay 15, 20158 votes

You are clearly reading the skill wrong lol, Every spear beyond the first, will deal an additional 10/14 etc dmg

GavranMay 16, 20157 votes

As in "spears beyond the first don't do nothing at all".

You are reading the ability wrong. The first spear does the most damage, and if you hold it you don't get to use the slow.

The optimal use case is:

~~AA, Rend, AA until Rend is off CD, Rend. Repeat.~~ See Nine Ravens response.

Nine RavensMay 16, 20154 votes

You don't stack the Rend passive when it's on cooldown, so using it immediately every time it's off cooldown is actually terrible damage-wise. However since the CD refreshes on getting a kill with it, the optimal damage case is to use it every time it will kill something, i.e. as an execute. There are basically three cases to best use Rend:

To kill something, maximizing DPS
At the end of an engagement/trade to put max damage on enemies in a case where you can't kill them
When you need the utility of the slow more than you need to maximize damage from the skill

Worst Mid EverMay 16, 20151 votes

no you are, the spears stack but give diminishing returns, so it is more efficient to AA once then rend and disengage because you will be taking autoattacks in return, the 8 downvotes on my post really show GDs average IQ

ReyvaxMay 16, 20154 votes

It means that Rend deals more damage the more autos you get in. It means a lot of damage if you can all-in. It means extended trades are actually BETTER for Kalista than they are for say, Graves.

And, calling people stupid for disagreeing with you is a rather shitty thing to do.