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The 3 Things I Don't Get about Karma's Kit

SilverSquid··35 votes·4,728 views

I have spent a lot of time with my dear duchess of Ionia over the last few years, but some of Riot's decisions regarding her kit keep giving me headaches. Here are the 3 that confuse me the most:

1) Bye, Bye Shieldbomb

The elephant in the room: This was Karma's most iconic damage spell for most of her digital life. For over 4 years! Before her rework it was her best damage spell and even after the rework it was her favoured tool for many things, such as clearing waves, trading with jumpy assasins or securing clutch kills. So why was it removed last year?

The removal made the name "Defiance" nonsensical and deleted the duality from the spell. Duality and shieldbomb were those words you would use in sharade games so somebody could guess Karma. Officially - even though never directly adressed - they removed the damage so they could amp up her passive in the 5.10 patch. This was done to help her scale better into lategame (which failed).... and gravely nerfed her damage options as a midlaner (which stayed that way).

It only took Riot a whole season to realize the power imbalance they created, which made them buff her RE to insane values in the 6.6 patch, creating the teamfighting shield-bot we got to know in the LCS. I personally thought she was more interesting with shieldbomb than massive AoE shields, both while playing and playing against. And looking at things like Ivern and the new Redemption item leads me to believe that there IS value in shieldbomb and AoE-duality effects.

So why the removal? And is there a chance Karma might get it back? Especially since Meddler admitted that reworked Karma is "bland"... wouldn't this make her less bland?

2) Tankscaling on your Heal?

So, for some reason - as anyone who had the pleasure of playing against top-tank-Karma knows - Karma can heal for some ridiculous amounts. Frequently. Assuming you have full CDR and hit your full tether and 2 AAs, you can keep casting RW nearly every 6 seconds. And it heals for 20% of your missing hp twice. Increased by AP.

This would be okay if this ability wouldn't be utterly unreliable for the role Karma was designed to play (mage) and is currently most frequently played as (support), while being close to oppressive on tank Karma. Here's why it's problematic:

  • For any squishy build, this "emergency button" is way too unreliable. It needs 2 buttons, a target and has a casting time of 0.5s. This means the heal hits 0.75-1.0s after you decided you need it, depending on your reactions.
  • This is made even more problematic by the fact that, when someone tries to kill you, they generally want to ignite you.... which frequently counters your heal, without your enemy even planning it. Also Morello's isn't exactly rare...
  • To get the full heal you need to cuddle with enemies for 2s, which means squishy builds commonly only get half of the heal anyways.
  • Scaling with both resistances AND health, this ability is just way better at sustaining you through battle, than for bait-y emergency heals, which it was designed for.

I don't understand why this ability doesn't have a flat value (scaling with low hp instead) and a lower casting time instead (or none). It would make tank Karma less obnoxious and this ability actually useful/reliable/skill reliant for midlaners. One of Karma's problems is that she keeps mantra-ing the same ability over and over again, so this would indeed help.

3) Is 3.25s of Root Really Needed?

Karma is the champion with the potentially longest root in the game. In practice, this barely is the case, since you need to have both W and R maxed out, which generally happens at lvl18 and most games don't even last that long. But why does she even have it? What does she need it for? I mean, seriously; Karma doesn't profit from it in any way. The only reason she wants to root you is, so she can hit you with both parts of RQ.... which she can't if she just spent her mantra on the extra root. It's also not useful to catch enemies. Generally it makes more sense (and is more reliable) to root someone for 2s and shield/speedboost your whole team to catch up, instead of rooting someone for 3.25. While healing for an amount that is very insignificant on a mage support in lategame.

Additionally: Most people agree that Karma is a battlemage/enchanter. Or at least, that she should be one. This uber-root falls in the disruptor category and does not help Karma's jack-of-all-trades problem. So she doesn't need the root in her kit, she has no synergy with it, she isn't picked for it and it dilutes her battlemage identity. Why is this a thing on her?

Please Explain!

I would be very grateful if a Rioter could enlighten me. Or even someone from the boards. To me this seems like nonsense that was generally introduced last year in the 5.10 patch. The removal of shieldbomb, that everyone loved. The inclusion of the bonus root, that wasn't needed. The further seperation of tank/mage/support Karma, for no reason.

Anyways, let me know your thoughts on those issues. And thanks for reading! SilverSquid

50 Comments

Teridax686 votes

As much as I disliked Old Karma, I agree that New Karma took a lot away from her that didn't really need to go. While Old Karma had serious gameplay, counterplay and clarity issues, she at least had something approximating a distinct niche and identity. New Karma, on the other hand, plays very well, and has a lot of healthy outplay potential built into her kit, but has no niche or even that much unique gameplay. Instead, she does a lot of stuff that you can find on other kits, except she does it with more numbers.

Regarding her shieldbomb, the initial issue was that it was instant, and had deceptively strong damage on Old Karma. On New Karma, it ended up serving no real purpose, which is why it got cut. I think it needs to come back, though, and I think Karma's shield should in fact trade its bonus movement speed just so that it can have it. What I think needs to change, though, is that the bomb part needs some sort of a delay, in order for it to have counterplay, but in exchange it should get to do cool stuff, like deal damage based on the shielded target's missing health (which would bring her much more in line with her original battle-mage fantasy).

Re: her heal, I generally don't think it's ever great for any one champion to have both a shield and a heal built into their kit, for about the same reason it doesn't feel great for a champion to have two different attack speed steroids (looking at you, Aatrox). Since they both accomplish a similar function of damage mitigation/negation, and often stop each other from working properly (you can't heal a target as well if your shield blocks too much damage), it might be better to cut out her heal and focus on making her shield/shieldbomb stronger. I kinda feel it might be worth combining her current and old tether by having her gain bonus movement speed every time she clotheslines an enemy, and having her root her main target if they stay tethered for too long.

As for the root itself, the only reason it has such massive numbers is because Karma's kit sort of needs inflated numbers right now to be considered valuable. I also think its duration needs to be decreased, but more generally I also think her Mantra needs to be rethought a bit. Its duality theme is completely lost now, and Karma generally doesn't really look or play like a duality-focused champion at all. I feel it might be more interesting to have each basic ability have a dual offensive/supportive effect baked in (e.g. her shieldbomb), and have her Mantra instead spread her influence, rather than add extra effects or inflate her current ones.

IxtaliKing4 votes

+1. I agree with pretty much everything you said except for the shield bomb needing a delay and trading the speed boost, the reworked version was perfectly fine to play with and against. I say that because the overloaded nature of the spell meant that it had flexible uses, but also had an optimal use (5 man shield, Ms boost, damage and CD reduction) that felt really rewarding. I believe that abilities like that are good for adding depth to champs, like Fizz's troll pole; has multiple uses whilst maintaining an optimal use, you either get a little out of the spell or a lot.

I also think her Mantra needs to be rethought a bit. Its duality theme is completely lost now, and Karma generally doesn't really look or play like a duality-focused champion at all. I feel it might be more interesting to have each basic ability have a dual offensive/supportive effect baked in (e.g. her shieldbomb), and have her Mantra instead spread her influence, rather than add extra effects or inflate her current ones.

This I also slightly disagree with, although I see where you are coming from logically. Her Mantra may have lost its duality, but that doesn't mesn she shouldn't or couldn't get it back. I think for her Mantra to be the unique and character defining part of her kit, it needs to have its duality, otherwise it becomes a weaker, less impactful Heimer ult with a refundable CD... like it currently is.

The complication with adding duality back to Mantra is because many people enjoy her current RQ, although I wouldn't mind it losing some of its aftershock damage for a heal, I'm sure new Karma players probably wouldn't be comfortable with that. Then it leaves the question of what happens to RW if the heal moves back to RQ and the MS boost remains on RE. The RW would then have be something unique like a tether that shares damage (up to a cap) between Karma and her enemy and lowers both of their resistances, for example.

In regards to having duality on her basic abilities, that would be a bit awkward. As much as I love the idea of the shield bomb, having it on a basic ability would take away the novelty of her Mantra imo. I think her current basic E is perfect, it's a shield with a unique basic effect which feels good to use.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

I say that because the overloaded nature of the spell meant that it had flexible uses, but also had an optimal use (5 man shield, Ms boost, damage and CD reduction) that felt really rewarding. I believe that abilities like that are good for adding depth to champs, like Fizz's troll pole; has multiple uses whilst maintaining an optimal use, you either get a little out of the spell or a lot.

That much is true, giving an ability with a moderate-to-low cooldown different valid potential uses adds depth to a champion, and if Karma can accommodate both a speed boost and a bomb on her shield, that would be the best. However, adding a shield bomb would require taking away some of her current power, which carries its inherent risks: right now, Karma's numbers are all inflated, so she has some room to work with, but if you go too far you could end up with a kit that feels mediocre all around. If an ability has too many different effects, you can also end up with an ability that ends up feeling diffuse, which can risk being unsatisfying to the user no matter how they cast it, and frustrating to the people playing against them, because there would be no specific answer to that spell.

{quoted}

I think for her Mantra to be the unique and character defining part of her kit, it needs to have its duality, otherwise it becomes a weaker, less impactful Heimer ult with a refundable CD... like it currently is.

As much as I'd personally prefer duality baked into her basic abilities, I can absolutely get behind duality through Mantra, though it would have to be implemented a little differently from Old Karma. The original problem with Mantra was that her old Mantra'd Q didn't feel like it ever had a true optimal use (you had to "waste" your damage to heal your ally), and her Mantra'd W just increased its bonus movement speed, which didn't feel all that great. A potential alternative could be to not so much have her Mantra add an extra effect, but instead flip the base effect into a thematic opposite, which could even allow Karma to hold multiple charges, since her Mantra'd abilities wouldn't need to be stronger, just different. For example, her Q could create its delayed damage/slow zone as a baseline, albeit with much less damage and an initially weaker slow, and Mantra would instead flip it into an area that healed allies on detonation, without slowing or damaging enemies. I have no idea what the exact details would be, but if done right, it could allow Karma to end up with both a mage and a support kit, instead of having a kit that works both for a mage and a support by dint of offering generic CC, damage and utility.

IxtaliKing3 votes

That much is true, giving an ability with a moderate-to-low cooldown different valid potential uses adds depth to a champion, and if Karma can accommodate both a speed boost and a bomb on her shield, that would be the best. However, adding a shield bomb would require taking away some of her current power, which carries its inherent risks: right now, Karma's numbers are all inflated, so she has some room to work with, but if you go too far you could end up with a kit that feels mediocre all around. If an ability has too many different effects, you can also end up with an ability that ends up feeling diffuse, which can risk being unsatisfying to the user no matter how they cast it, and frustrating to the people playing against them, because there would be no specific answer to that spell.

This is why Ricklessabandon's decision to get rid of her shieldbomb confused me, because not only was this skill Iconic and core to Karma, but it struck a good balance of fun to use/fair to play against. Now Karma's only high point is in hitting a full team with both parts of her RQ.

As much as I'd personally prefer duality baked into her basic abilities, I can absolutely get behind duality through Mantra, though it would have to be implemented a little differently from Old Karma. The original problem with Mantra was that her old Mantra'd Q didn't feel like it ever had a true optimal use (you had to "waste" your damage to heal your ally), and her Mantra'd W just increased its bonus movement speed, which didn't feel all that great. A potential alternative could be to not so much have her Mantra add an extra effect, but instead flip the base effect into a thematic opposite,

The I'd approach Karma's current issues would be bringing back some core elements and adding an entirely new mechanic to her, for example:

P - Reduce current passive numbers and move it to Mantra, [insert new passive]. Q - Leave untouched, her basic Q is a decent base ability. RQ - 1. Change cast paradigm to a ground targeted AoE that can be placed anywhere within its current range, but still stop at the 1st unit hit. 2. Instead of creating an aftershock, Soul Flare leaves a zone that damages enemies who stay in it over time and heals allies for a % of their missing hp.

W - Leave untouched, dealing damage then rooting is okay for a base ability. RW - 1. Instead of dealing it's own damage and rooting, tether will now reduce both Karma her enemy target's resistances and both targets will share the damage that they deal to each other for 4 or 5s. 2. When cast on an ally the tether will increase both Karma and the target ally's resistances for 4 or 5s. 3. Enemies who touch the RW tether take half of Ws total damage, and allies that pass through the RW get half the resistance boost for a few seconds.

E - Leave untouched. RE - The REAL Defiance aka shieldbomb.

Something like that I'd hope wouldn't alienate people who like new Karma, whilst paying homage to old Karma and adding something completely new and unique to her.

I have no idea what the exact details would be, but if done right, it could allow Karma to end up with both a mage and a support kit, instead of having a kit that works both for a mage and a support by dint of offering generic CC, damage and utility

Being both a mage and support is something that is also pretty core to Karma, being able to function well in both lanes is important. I think mages who have supportive aspects in bot are cool, and are a lot more healthy than having mages like Vel'Koz, Brand and Annie in bot lane. I think the solution for utility mages like Karma being in both lanes is unique utility.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

This is why Ricklessabandon's decision to get rid of her shieldbomb confused me, because not only was this skill Iconic and core to Karma, but it struck a good balance of fun to use/fair to play against. Now Karma's only high point is in hitting a full team with both parts of her RQ.

I do think there was some justification, because RQ was Karma's go-to for damage, and the shieldbomb meant a portion of Karma's RE would also go towards damage, which made it a less interesting choice overall. Ultimately, that points to the flaws of her current Mantra, rather than her shieldbomb, and removing it wasn't great, but there was a justifiable reason behind it.

Thoughts on your suggested kit changes:

{quoted}

  1. Instead of creating an aftershock, Soul Flare leaves a zone that damages enemies who stay in it over time and heals allies for a % of their missing hp.

I'm not the biggest fan of damage over time, since its damage output tends to be less visible, and I also think the delayed damage on RQ is healthy as it is. However, moving the heal here would make sense and create new gameplay via little huddle zones that both teams could play around, while also moving closer to Old Karma's nuke/heal combo.

{quoted}

RW - 1. Instead of dealing it's own damage and rooting, tether will now reduce both Karma her enemy target's resistances and both targets will share the damage that they deal to each other for 4 or 5s. 2. When cast on an ally the tether will increase both Karma and the target ally's resistances for 4 or 5s. 3. Enemies who touch the RW tether take half of Ws total damage, and allies that pass through the RW get half the resistance boost for a few seconds.

The clothesline effect is cool, but I'm not personally a fan of resistance mods, since they tend to be difficult to assess on the fly. The damage share effect looks like it could synergize well with Karma's own shield, but why make it two-way? I mean, it definitely fits Karma's duality theme, but it also means she would hurt herself if her and her team focus her target.

{quoted}

RE - The REAL Defiance aka shieldbomb.

This I'm totally okay with.

{quoted}

I think the solution for utility mages like Karma being in both lanes is unique utility.

I completely agree, utility mages shouldn't just play like part-mages, part-supports, they should be offering unique advantages that help both themselves and their allies, like Anivia's wall or Morgana's Black Shield. One of the things that peeved me about Riot's class blog is that it failed to address utility mages as their own distinct subclass, and instead threw them around all over the place. Karma, for example, is really a utility mage, but under the official class taxonomy she's this battle-enchanter-disruptor mage with a touch of artillery, which also kind of shows that she lacks a distinct niche right now.

While we're discussing potential Karma reworks, what do you think of this one? I made it a little while back, and while I might change it in the future (the empowered W might turn out to be a clusterfuck, and it might be better to shift the kit's duality to Mantra), I also tried to combine features of both Old and New Karma.

IxtaliKing4 votes

I'm not the biggest fan of damage over time, since its damage output tends to be less visible, and I also think the delayed damage on RQ is healthy as it is. However, moving the heal here would make sense and create new gameplay via little huddle zones that both teams could play around, while also moving closer to Old Karma's nuke/heal combo

Fair enough, I went with this DoT/HoT zone to give her enemies and allies something to play around and be mindful of for a few seconds, thought that might make her a little more interesting.

The clothesline effect is cool, but I'm not personally a fan of resistance mods, since they tend to be difficult to assess on the fly. The damage share effect looks like it could synergize well with Karma's own shield, but why make it two-way? I mean, it definitely fits Karma's duality theme, but it also means she would hurt herself if her and her team focus her target.

To be honest I went with resistance mods because it was the only thing I could think of at the time, and also because it works fine for Taric and Orianna.

The damage share being two way would only apply to Karma and her target, damage taken from other champs wouldn't be shared, making the soul bond more Karmic than empathic. I also thought it would make for more interesting decision making between Karma and her opponent because the ability is inherently neutral.

The principal behind my little kit suggestion is that RQ remains the aggressive Mantra which becomes defensive, RW becomes an almost entirely neutral Mantra, and RE goes back to being the defensive Mantra that becomes aggressive.

I completely agree, utility mages shouldn't just play like part-mages, part-supports, they should be offering unique advantages that help both themselves and their allies, like Anivia's wall or Morgana's Black Shield. One of the things that peeved me about Riot's class blog is that it failed to address utility mages as their own distinct subclass, and instead threw them around all over the place.

I agree, especially because before the subclasses were announced, Rioters counted Lux, Morgana, Orianna and Karma as a support mage subclass unto themselves.

While we're discussing potential Karma reworks, what do you think of this one?

This rework look good and probably is closer to what the rework of original Karma maybe should have been, but I think something like that would completely alienate fans of new Karma. The issue we have with Karma's community now is that it is quite divided, so any work that is done from now has to at least try to be inclusive.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

While Old Karma had serious gameplay, counterplay and clarity issues, she at least had something approximating a distinct niche and identity.

Do you know why Old Karma had all those issues? Because Riot intentionally kept her that way (just like old Eve). They flat out refused to give small buffs to her with the excuse that it would make her "OP". As if. The clarity issue was just silly due to the fact that she didn't get exposure for the playerbase, which was why most people didn't know what she did.

A simple glance at her balancing attempts and you'll only see a small numbers buff to her Q for the most part. She had the lowest AA range for a mage (4XX compared to other mages' 5XX) and had mana problems that made 3rd world countries seem rich in comparison. Didn't even get a free week rotation after the mandatory one time during her release before they destroyed her kit.

Meanwhile, when the New Karma released, she was pathetically weak and Riot had to spend a few months consecutively buffing her just to make her viable. Unfortunately, it's all about politics in Riot and they had to cover their butts with buffs to make it as though the rework was successful when it really wasn't (a recent example was Dynamic Queue).

Scarizard was put on blast and while he said he was going to continue with the dialogue, he simply swept it under the rug.

The thing that bothered a lot of people is that champions who got reworked after her retained most of their kit components (barring those who didn't have an identity like Sion), whereas Karma got a rushed rework by an inexperienced designer who didn't know what he was doing and tried to play it off as though he did.

The rest is history. New Karma was demoted to the support role and parts of her kit was systematically removed throughout the years.

Teridax681 votes

You're making it sound like Riot had it in for Karma, which makes no sense. Why would a company arbitrarily dislike one of its assets? For sure, Karma's overhaul wasn't really successful (but, then again, this was the first ever total VGU Rito had ever done, so they had no experience or clear guidelines to work off of), but there were very real reasons why Old Karma could not receive buffs and needed a rework. Her old kit was dysfunctional, confusing and at times extremely frustrating, and she was so weird that very few people ever took interest in her. Remember all the "Karma who?" jokes? Yeah, it was that bad. Even a champion like Brand, who was thrown together in a week and had a bland theme, managed to attract more fans than Old Karma ever did, and most of the diehards that did support her only really came out of the woodwork after her overhaul, sometimes even a long while later. I agree with you that Karma should have been reworked differently, and that there were a lot of elements to Old Karma that should not have been removed (jokes aside, why did she even lose her fans?), but I don't think anyone can pretend that she would have been fine with just a few buffs.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

You're making it sound like Riot had it in for Karma, which makes no sense. Why would a company arbitrarily dislike one of its assets? For sure, Karma's overhaul wasn't really successful (but, then again, this was the first ever total VGU Rito had ever done, so they had no experience or clear guidelines to work off of), but there were very real reasons why Old Karma could not receive buffs and needed a rework. Her old kit was dysfunctional, confusing and at times extremely frustrating, and she was so weird that very few people ever took interest in her. Remember all the "Karma who?" jokes? Yeah, it was that bad. Even a champion like Brand, who was thrown together in a week and had a bland theme, managed to attract more fans than Old Karma ever did, and most of the diehards that did support her only really came out of the woodwork after her overhaul, sometimes even a long while later. I agree with you that Karma should have been reworked differently, and that there were a lot of elements to Old Karma that should not have been removed (jokes aside, why did she even lose her fans?), but I don't think anyone can pretend that she would have been fine with just a few buffs.

Riot's lack of action says otherwise. She was simply left in an underpowered state (like Kass, Poppy, Olaf, Yorick, and Eve) for a long time until they reworked her. They didn't even try, even though they are feeding you lines that their internal playtest says she would be OP (their testing is rarely on point, as seen in basically all their patches). And let's be real. They allow popular champions to remain on top for months before they do nerfs to bring them in line. Her winrate was around 47-48%. Giving her a little buff wasn't going to make her suddenly OP. What was confusing about Karma's kit? A simple reading of her kit allows you to understand what she did. If you were to argue the clarity on her old W, I would point to Thresh, Bard, etc as a counterargument.

While her kit may have been 'dysfunctional' as you called it, why are the rest of the roster not considered dysfunctional as well? Even back in S2, there were some pretty broken kits that should've be thrown away. I could name at least more than 10 champions currently that should get a total rehaul.

Majority of the people are sheep and use strong champions. Old Karma was not strong due to certain limitations, and therefore, had little popularity as a result. As mentioned, she didn't even get a free rotation week after one time. Gee, wonder why people would think Riot hated Old Karma?

Also, see Taliyah. Her playerbase was small, but suddenly increased exponentially after her W change. However, with subsequent nerfs, her playrate has now tanked again. Keep in mind, when New Karma was released, her playrate wasn't the greatest either until Riot continually buffed her.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Riot's lack of action says otherwise.

You're not really answering my point. Why would Riot be duplicitous? Why would they try to sabotage their own game? Also, Riot did outline Karma's clarity problems in their rework posts: part of the issue came from her passive, which gave her deceptively large damage when people least expected it, and another part of it came from her instant-cast shieldbomb which, when combined with her passive's bonus AP, could let her one-shot squishies from out of the blue.

{quoted}

why are the rest of the roster not considered dysfunctional as well?

They were, and they are. Riot is working on total VGUs to Galio and Warwick as we speak. It really was a matter of priority, and they happened to prioritize Karma. It was not the best move, but it wasn't totally unjustified.

{quoted}

Majority of the people are sheep and use strong champions. Old Karma was not strong due to certain limitations, and therefore, had little popularity as a result.

That's not quite true, there are a great deal many champions that are popular even when they're not very strong, with Lee Sin as a prime example. He's got a pretty good win rate now, but even when it was around the 45% mark, he still had a play rate approaching 20%.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

You're not really answering my point. Why would Riot be duplicitous? Why would they try to sabotage their own game? Also, Riot did outline Karma's clarity problems in their rework posts: part of the issue came from her passive, which gave her deceptively large damage when people least expected it, and another part of it came from her instant-cast shieldbomb which, when combined with her passive's bonus AP, could let her one-shot squishies from out of the blue.

They were, and they are. Riot is working on total VGUs to Galio and Warwick as we speak. It really was a matter of priority, and they happened to prioritize Karma. It was not the best move, but it wasn't totally unjustified.

That's not quite true, there are a great deal many champions that are popular even when they're not very strong, with Lee Sin as a prime example. He's got a pretty good win rate now, but even when it was around the 45% mark, he still had a play rate approaching 20%.

I answered it. See: Dynamic Queue. Certain times, players know better than Riot does, but they ignore it, hence, sabotaging their own game because they refuse to listen to good points that were laid out. How many people have quit the game because they refused to listen to the community when the problems were staring at them in the face? Old Karma never could one-shot a squishy with RE even with a ton of AP on top of being low health. Again, I wouldn't pay much attention to what Riot puts out about Karma, considering that they had years to figure out this new version and still can't figure her out.

VGU is Visual Graphic Update. It has nothing to do with a kit overhaul. Riot had done reworks prior to Old Karma, by the way. If they prioritized her, why did her rework come out 3 months earlier than planned? It was a shoddy attempt at a rework, plain and simple.

Lee Sin was top dog for many years, which is why he had time to accumulate players. Only recently has he dropped, but the fact is, the lower winrate is simply because of his skill ceiling, not because he actually have any problems in his kit that needed addressing. Still broken when played decent.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

I answered it. See: Dynamic Queue.

That was a mistake that Riot took time to learn from, it wasn't a deliberate attempt to sabotage their own game. I agree that Karma wasn't handled well, but her rework was not malicious.

{quoted}

VGU is Visual Graphic Update.

No, it stands for Visual and Gameplay Update, which is why Riot talks about holding champions like Akali and Evelynn off for VGUs due to their kits needing larger work.

{quoted}

Riot had done reworks prior to Old Karma, by the way.

None like Karma, though. She was the very first to have a complete identity change, whereas previous reworks only aimed to change their champion's kits, and do so much less drastically.

{quoted}

Lee Sin was top dog for many years, which is why he had time to accumulate players. Only recently has he dropped, but the fact is, the lower winrate is simply because of his skill ceiling, not because he actually have any problems in his kit that needed addressing. Still broken when played decent.

Lee Sin came after Karma. I'm not saying his lower win rates were due to problems in his kit, I'm saying that he is popular even when he's less successful than other champions, which shows that players genuinely like him independently of his power level. The same could not be said for Old Karma.

Vanjie4 votes

Agree. <3

Unfortunately, all Riot can do right now is give her a splash update for a visual update that is half done. They removed her fans, shield bomb, dress, and identity and turned her purely into a support. Riot completely changed her and they have already said her current kit is staying. Riot purposely waited all this time to say "hey, we don't play to do anything on her anymore because we don't want to change her kit too much. people are so used to it now we cannot do it." Well, didn't you do that to old Karma players? You changed our champion to one of the worst reworks in LoL history. All Riot has are excuses as to why she has not been worked on in 3 years, why she will not be worked on the next 3 years, and why Karma is not as important as 7 Ryze reworks, 8 plus Ekko patch update and preseason rework, and Zed patch reworks and 2 Zed preseason works.

SilverSquid1 votes

As usual, I think you overestimate what Riot is doing on purpose. "Sometimes bad things happen in spite of someone caring a lot." But I think we can agree that this is a form of neglect we ought to fight. It's our job to keep reminding Riot what needs to be done and what we would prefer to be done. Otherwise, I think, they have troubles seeing it.

Vanjie1 votes

I like to point out the neanderthal they work and think like.

SilverSquid1 votes

I admit, that made me chuckle, but it doesn't make me agree.

Vanjie1 votes

Which is why my posts get negative and you get positive. Someone has to put the caveman minded morons in place.

SilverSquid1 votes

At times I really don't envy your job.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

i honestly dont like old karma or new karma i just dont like how she was designed to be someone who loves being low health and squishy i mean her old passive gave free AP just from being low health.i liked a little of how she looked i liked her fans and felt like she just needed a VU not a whole relaunch.Her new Kit is just tanky Sona with no AOE Stun Karma's kit focuses on too many things while doing them all either too well or too poorly her Mid lane top lane and support play styles are so bland and generic its painful to play her.

SilverSquid3 votes

Well said.

I would prefer Karma to be less of a disruptor and artillery and more of the battlemage/enchanter she used to. That niche is free anyways.

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

The shield and tether work in tandem. shield keeps you alive long enough to heal off the tether and keeps you in range to make it lock them down. the same 2 spells also work in tandem with RQ to help you land the secondary explosion.

Players saying she doesn't have a unique niche are being dishonest, her team speedup is very powerful and unique outside of sivir, who is an adc. It's also dishonest to say her spells don't have any synergy with each other or somehow don't fit who she is.

its true her identity isn't really about 'duality' anymore, its about the choice in what you empower. honestly, who cares? granted I started playing after her rework, but just because she's different doesn't mean there's something wrong with who she is now. Maybe you could make a case that too many enchanters overlap in how they protect others with shields but it's a thin one.

SilverSquid5 votes

The shield and tether work in tandem. shield keeps you alive long enough to heal off the tether and keeps you in range to make it lock them down. the same 2 spells also work in tandem with RQ to help you land the secondary explosion.

This doesn't explain why she would need the extra root. Also it highlights how Karma has only one damage combo now, making her a one trick pony. The only deciding factor here is, whether you need the E to apply it or not.

Players saying she doesn't have a unique niche are being dishonest, her team speedup is very powerful

Being powerful and having a unique niche aren't the same. Karma shares this niche with an item that most supports can get item 3069 . I don't think it's healthy for a game that a champion and an item fight for the same space. It is equally unhealthy if an ADC and a support can provide the same team utility. They either make each other irrelevant or stacking becomes a problem.

its true her identity isn't really about 'duality' anymore, its about the choice in what you empower. honestly, who cares?

Who cares? Really? Those who enjoyed her old playstyle care. Those who enjoy hurting enemies and protecting allies (as karma does) care. Those who loved actually deciding every fight which ability to mantra instead of repeatedly mantra-ing the same spell over and over again based on the build you chose, care. Those who miss affecting enemies and allies with the same spell and spotting situations in which this could turn the tide of a battle, care.

just because she's different doesn't mean there's something wrong with who she is now.

True. But a rework that takes away a unique playstyle for no apparant reason and deletes some character perks without replacing them properly is what was wrong about her rework. But reworked Karma wasn't that bad until they took away further instances of her duality and wisdom based playstyle in 5.10. They made her even less about her fantasy, which contradicts every other work on champions Riot usually does.

It appears they don't know what Karma is supposed to be (most of the guys from her original rework and all of her original kit are gone), thus handling her badly. I try to help out by highlighting those things.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

Well apparently it was a really unhealthy playstyle so it wasn't no reason.

And I've never seen pro players go "eh Ill just get an ancient coin instead of playing karma" shes been huge in the pro scene this year specifically for her group speedup

SilverSquid4 votes

Well apparently it was a really unhealthy playstyle so it wasn't no reason.

What was unhealthy?

I've never seen pro players go "eh Ill just get an ancient coin instead of playing karma"

Yes you did. For two years. Until 6.6 when they supercharged her RE values to make spamming it efficient.

Vistha2 votes

Welcome to Riot Games. Expect any kind of work done... maaaybe in after another 4 years.

Toru Itai2 votes

i came for the image.. i'm disappointed .

SilverSquid1 votes

I include pictures in the preview so people can quickly see what this thread is about. I will use them in the post if it helps the reading flow. Wasn't the case this time.

Anyways, here you go. http://66.media.tumblr.com/82b3f8398eada9443e98aa27d0a9ba12/tumblr_mnmvghRbtG1rna804o1_1280.png

I don't use exclusive sources, I just google "Karma LoL" and take what fits.
N Pelosi2 votes

I voted Trump cuz Rito took away Karma's RW and RE damage. Take that Calisuckas.

SilverSquid3 votes

-#MakeKarmaGreatAgain

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

because they wanted to add in item 3401 .

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

but thats not for ranged supports....they cant get any use from the execute passive....

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

well i meant as they wanted to make her ability an active on face of the mountain.

and besides that you can make use of the passive on a ranged champion. thresh is an easy example to point out. the execute doesnt activate but the passive gold share does when you kill a minion. that's why sometimes viegar use it.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

This would be okay if this ability wouldn't be utterly unreliable for the role Karma was designed to play (midlane)

She wasn't. Rioters always said that reworked Karma is supposed to play toplane, at least as a secondary position.

SilverSquid5 votes

Quotation please? The only thing close to that I am aware of its the following:

Originally envisioned as a support, Karma's fringe successes actually came from players using her in the top or mid lanes as an AP burst mage with support abilities, much like Zilean Zilean or Morgana Morgana . We like this direction and want to encourage you to boost both her offensive and support abilities by building AP. We also want to make sure she can hold her own as a solo or with a lane partner.

But keep in mind that this was from a time when Riot didn't acknowlegde meta-lanes yet. And there seems to be no hint they wanted her to play tank.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

doesn't seem like she was ever meant to be primarily mid based on that quote

SilverSquid1 votes

Maybe I am expressing myself badly, but I DO think they wanted her to be able to go toplane, similarly to Lissandra. In the end, she did quite successfully play against toplaners before her rework and they respected that. But I don't see them planning her to go full tank (that's what I meant by saying, that's she was intended for midlane), similarly to Ekkko/Fizz.

Schoenberg1 votes

Have you ever played against a tank karma?

inplane1 votes

Honestly, Karma feels like a pile of feces now. She's not fun to play and her kit has become even more uninteractive than before. I tried playing her Support multiple times after the minion shielding change and she just lacked. I feel like I'm gimping my self for playing Karma. Even more so than Taliyah and she's considered hot garbage. I loved Karma back in Season 3 and 4. I played the absolute shit out of her as a Support. 304 games as her in Season 4 with a whopping 58% winrate. I know I'll never be able to do it again because she's so bad now.

I'll never understand the removal of shield bombing. It was the only thing that made her unique aside from a janky tether and a bootleg Heimerdinger ult. Even then the only unique portion of Mantra was removed through the removal of a second charge.

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

she has a totally average win rate and a powerful niche as a support, sounds like you'd only be satisfied if she was really op

SilverSquid4 votes

I think champions can be engaging to play without having an OP winrate. Which appears to be his point. Without the decision HOW you want to deal damage (shieldbomb, tether-trade, gambling on RQ) and the removal of minion shielding, there is less and less skill expression left in Karma's kit. While Karma's winrate has increased over the past 2 years, I think her gameplay has become worse.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

I don't think it's a good idea to let anyone shield or heal minions tbh. Not even alistar

SilverSquid1 votes

Lee Sin and Lulu's minion interactions were kept and only the minion-shielding removed. For Karma, the shielding AND the interaction were removed. I don't mind if I can't shield minions anymore, but aiming RE was the actual fun part about it.

Or just read this: Why Karma Should Be Able to Shield Minions. And Why not. Or this: The Karma Changes Are Missing the Point. Here Is why!

inplane4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03Qd2k8v,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-11-13T22:23:12.776+0000)

she has a totally average win rate and a powerful niche as a support, sounds like you'd only be satisfied if she was really op.

I liked her before the ridiculous buffs placed on her in Season 6. She felt nice enough that she can still fill a unique role of a Mage Support. Now, she's just underwhelming at best after most gimmicks were taken away from her. I felt less restricted when I started maining Bard. He can do so much more than Karma it's ridiculous. Other champs can do things way better than she can. If I want poke damage, I would go Sona or Bard. If I want shields and disengage, I would go Janna or Lulu. If I want CC, I would go Leona or Zyra.

I main Taliyah in the Support role too, so playing OP champs isn't really my thing. I play Taliyah in Support because she has a unique role to fill as a Support. She doesn't really have anything at Mid lane anymore, much like how Karma doesn't really have anything at Support anymore.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Shield bomb is gone because in teamfights your R was never off cooldown because of it.

SilverSquid2 votes

Not true. It would've been if the passive buffs went through.

Back then, if you had FULL CDR and hit ALL 5 enemies with your RE you would still only reduce the CD to roughly 10s. You would need to hit another 3 spells (6 autos) to reduce the abulity to the same CD as your basic E.

But hitting 5 people took huge amounts of skill and was still a waste, if you didn't hit parts of your team as well. So a Karma could show incredibly amounts of mastery by using her RE in teamfights to its full potential. Today it's just.... well, RE someone from your team and you are good. It removes counterplay, it removed mastery, it removed clutch plays.

Just so they could buff the passive and make her scale better. Which failed.

Mishli1 votes

only one i agree with here is the root question. it feels very very lackluster at best, i would rather have the tether slow than increased root because of how easily it is for people to escape the tether without r+shielding yourself

SilverSquid3 votes

I'd rather give her the damage back. To make her a proper mage again, instead of lowering her counterplay.

Warden Karma1 votes

Hey Silver :)

Warning: frustated Post incoming

I recently returned after some time and I just read Iverns Triggerseed. I am speechless. Well actually I am kind of angry and sad. Triggerseed is a shieldbomb on a Mage and would even fit Karma very good with the slow. I feel like with every Champion release Riot is like: Hey we made a Champ using some part of Old Karma's Abilities and/Or have something we removed from her but Karma may not have it.

The longer they wait the harder it will be for them to put things right on Karma. I believe they will never satisfy the majority of People playing Karma because theiy are mostly either Team Old or Team New. I feel like it is not possibly anymore after everything they have done to "fuse the 2 Champions". They simply are so different.

Riot is also too busy with everything else and clueless what to do with her, as like everything they did to Karma proves. I believe its was KingCold who said this: They dont care about us (diehard fans) because they can afford to (minority).

A Champion Rework/relaunch should never focus on making a Champion appealling to the majority because its the minority who truly loves that champion it just doesnt make sense.

Also I was wondering if you missed my latest Karma Rework (not the Q suggestion) cause you usually never miss to comment a Karma Thread :D

SilverSquid1 votes

Hey there. Good to see you are still around.

Last thing first: I do miss Karma posts. It might not seem like it, but I do have a real life :D. I put a lot of value on my spare time and use my relaxation hours for stuff like the boards, but even I need to cut down on my spare time every now and then... so there are times when I will NOT check the boards for every post containing "karma" every day. Put shortly: Real life is distracting sometimes.

concerning Iverns shieldbomb triggerseed; I had this little exchange with groovylord:

  • It hurts to read that you (Riot?) now seem to realize that Karma didn't need the rework as much as you thought she did. What the Karma community has/had been telling you for years.
  • It hurts to read Meddler admitting that Karma has become bland because you didn't spend enough resources (thought, time) on her rework.
  • It hurts to see old Karma concepts (lvl6 abilities, shieldbomb) being salvaged and reused on new Champions, because it meant they were good concepts that didn't need to be removed, but also that they are unlikely to return to her, now that they are "taken".
  • It hurts to read you saying, that the current Karma and her current fans need to be considered, when no one ever mentions that old Karma fans need to be considered. Or her valuable lost identity.

About your frustration: I do feel ya. But before my Twin Dragon Rework I wouldn't have thought it possible either to actually please both fanbases. I think I did prove that there is a way in between. No matter whether it eventually influences Karma's future in LoL or not; it is a reason for hope. There are ways she can work, there is possibility to please both sides of the argument. Riot just needs to do it right. And in order to increase the chances of them doing so we need to keep reminding them of what is important and what is there to love about her.

It's a thankless job, but I don't know who could do it better than us.

Warden Karma1 votes

Well I am fightning for Karma before and after her rework (though mostly after) for like 2 3 years now. I do have some "holiday in between" but I return to Karma somehow always. My Last Rework surprisingly got upvotes after being live for a few minuts, which i couldnt really believe because I am used to when my title contains Karma and rework it will magically get downvotes as soon as it enters the boards and falls into oblivion. People seem to be more open in generell for Karma discussion it seems. Riot is slowy listening/answering us. Maybe there is hope.

Hope is the greatest ally.

I cant stop to think of this sentence: Her fan technique is a deadly art of grace and poise, but her truest strength lies in the hearts of those willing to die alongside her.

Guess we kinda are those - rework wise. Kappa.

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