I get that damage is supposed to outscale defense in the late game.

Dasdi96·May 12, 2017·60 votes·4,005 views

However why are carries stronger than tanks in the early game? Shouldn't all carries be weak early to compensate for their insane late game scaling?

111 Comments

ScissorsNstuffMay 12, 20179 votes

the problem is that you must define "weak"

Vayne has one of the weakest earlygames, that doesn't mean she wont roll you in a terribly engaged 1v1

Dasdi96May 12, 201726 votes

{quoted}

the problem is that you must define "weak"

has one of the weakest earlygames, that doesn't mean she wont roll you in a terribly engaged 1v1

Meanwhile she can bully out almost every immobile melee in top lane.

RalanrMay 12, 20176 votes

Yeah ADCs aren't balanced around top lane. This can lead to some fun and annoying match ups.

5000000000000000May 13, 20171 votes

There are some exceptions (Quinn, somewhat Jayce, and Teemo, if you squint), but generally true.

RFPSHBYQl7May 13, 20174 votes

I'm not an expert but I don't think that adc and marksmen are the same thing.(sure, all adcs classify as marksmen, but some marksmen are the ones which you won't usually see in botlane, as you said Jayce and Teemo).

ScissorsNstuffMay 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile she can bully out almost every immobile melee in top lane.

most adcs can do this early in any sololane but then proceed to get wrecked around level 6 or 9

AnidanMay 12, 20175 votes

That's because you're putting a very mobile ranged champ against an immobile melee... that has nothing to do with relative strength and everything to do with kit. I don't get what this was supposed to prove about her strength

JebronMay 13, 20172 votes

The only thing Vayne can bully top is something that has absolutely no engage, she's extremely easy to engage on and gank and if she ever wastes condemn or tumble, that's your opportunity to maul her.

At which point I must ask, who are you playing top lane that has no engage abilities or ways to trade with a ranged champion and why are you playing them there?

5000000000000000May 13, 20172 votes

If you have only one dash/reliable CC, you'll also suffer. Nautilus hook? Condemned Maokai dash? Condemned Poppy? Condemned Shen? Condemned

But then she's a tank buster so maybe even in her early game she's supposed to be strong against tanks..?

yoshi2790May 13, 20171 votes

Nautilus hook? Nautilus ult. then AA for a snare. Maokai dash? Maokai is untargetable during his W what the actual fuck. Poppy? Your W gives you MS to catch up with vayne. + Ulti Shen? Shen isn't supposed to win a 1v1. He has his ultimate which makes him weak in 1v1's.

All ranged are stronger in laning phase than melee opponents, which is completely fine. Every champion is balanced around that.

Also, stating different abilities doesn't prove a single thing.

5000000000000000May 13, 20171 votes

Maokai gets to Vayne, then gets condemned. Now you have no way of catching up to her. Shen is a strong duelist, almost a lane bully now that his Q damage against champs got buffed (for whatever reasons).

The point I'm making is that if you have one dash or CC, then you can't fight Vayne in lane. Most tanks have one dash, and only then can they use their CC and damage. For example, if Irelia dashes to a low HP minion as gapcloser, Vayne is forced to disengage, but she'll still have her dash ready. Kled, if he lands his first dash, or if he lands his hook, he can stick to Vayne. Renekton can dash through minions to get a second dash. I never said Vayne can disengage against anyone. I said if you only have one dash/reliable CC, you're not going to be fighting Vayne in lane.

JebronMay 13, 20172 votes

I think you just don't know how to trade and abuse cooldowns, Vayne is really easy to beat in lane, especially as something like Nautilus.

5000000000000000May 13, 20172 votes

How do you beat Vayne in lane as Nautilus? I can see surviving lane, but beating her? It's fairly easy to set up ganks by blowing her condemn, but beating her in a 1v1?

weeaboomerMay 13, 20171 votes

Rofl, your only argument is her going top lane? LET'S SEE, ANY RANGED TOP LANER VS A MELEE AND TELL ME WHO BULLIES WHO?

PetraneseMay 13, 20172 votes

Riven Camille Ekko Illaoi Irelia Nasus Olaf

Ashe Kalista Sivir Xayah Jinx

LUL

Volibear BossMay 12, 20178 votes

Fiora as example has a strong earlygame, while outscaling almost every other champion.

yoshi2790May 13, 20171 votes

But item 3123 and If you CC her she'll die instantly.

RewtMay 12, 20177 votes

Tanks are not strong early. They are strong mid game. Like 17min-30min. thats when they are best. After that they are weaker and before that they dont have items to become tanky.

Now Let me put this simply. A TANK SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO 1v1 A DAMAGE DEALER UNLESS ABSURDLY FED.

Tanks should NEVER. I MEAN NEVER. be able to win a 1v1 against a damage dealer. Tanks are team champions. Not 1v1 face roll champions. They should never have any sort of damage that allows them to win those fights. Its fucking retarded when the 0/0/0 tank with 200 farm can 1v1 the adc who is 1/0/0 with 200 farm. That is just wrong.

RalanrMay 12, 201723 votes

So basically a tank should never be able to function in top lane?

RewtMay 12, 20172 votes

TF functions in mid lane. And guess what. He does jack shit against the enemy laner. He hides under his tower and waits till later in the game when he can do stuff...... get this.... WITH HIS TEAM.

Tanks need more tools for protecting their teams and themselves while doing drastically reduced damage.

RalanrMay 12, 201712 votes

That's because TF scales better. Tanks are strong early, spike mid, fall off late.

Reducing tank damage would basically gut Sion.

Edit: not to mention it's not fun to stay under tower and not be interactive with my opponent.

statelesskillerMay 12, 20173 votes

Gangplank fuck you yes it is fun to be a uninteractive laner that only acknowledges you as a gold purse

Glory ln DeathMay 12, 20176 votes

TF is ranged and has plenty of tools to keep himself relevant. Like ranged farming. And mana sustain. And damage to farm and harass. And extra gold gen to help him keep up if he gets zoned in lane.

BigBellBruteMay 12, 201720 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are not strong early. They are strong mid game. Like 17min-30min. thats when they are best. After that they are weaker and before that they dont have items to become tanky.

Now Let me put this simply. A TANK SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO 1v1 A DAMAGE DEALER UNLESS ABSURDLY FED.

Tanks should NEVER. I MEAN NEVER. be able to win a 1v1 against a damage dealer. Tanks are team champions. Not 1v1 face roll champions. They should never have any sort of damage that allows them to win those fights. Its fucking retarded when the 0/0/0 tank with 200 farm can 1v1 the adc who is 1/0/0 with 200 farm. That is just wrong.

If you make a tank so bad that they can't out duel anyone ever, then you have to nerf them so hard they'll never actually be a tank.

RalanrMay 12, 20177 votes

They'd basically only be a support then.

RewtMay 12, 20171 votes

Who gets solo gold to get their items. The Vanguard update was a complete failure. It was either an outright nerf (Zac) or it was such a ridiculous buff that they became mosters who completely lost their identities as engage tanks who played around their team (the other 2)

Glory ln DeathMay 12, 201711 votes

Who gets solo gold to get their items.

Who gets no gold because they can't do anything in lane because they aren't a damage threat. If you don't deal damage, you can't stop the enemy from harassing you and whittling you down, no matter how tanky you are. Then, because you've been killed multiple times, or been forced to recall, and you have no cs, gold, or experience, your opponent hits their power spikes and can one-shot you because you can't buy any items to actually get tanky.

Liac0sMay 13, 20171 votes

And that's why you don't get Tanks on Top. You get Off-Tanks, just like the good ol' S1/S2 days. But nah, better break tanks and make them full power houses.

Wet DrymanMay 13, 20173 votes

Even in good ol' S1/S2 people were picking Tanks Top lane for example Malphite, Alistar at his prime, Shen. Concept of Solo Lane Tank is as old as Dota itself.

RewtMay 12, 20173 votes

buff their CC. Give them things like mao's old ult where he is able to give %DR. Reduce their damage.

They should not be able to duel. they are supposed to be with the team. Shit like Chogath where he 1 shots your carries is fucking retarded. Sejuani where she melts your team is just wrong.

I even play tanks fairly often. And im fully in support of this. I think its retarded when i can just run up to the carry and kill them while being invulnerable. Its just wrong.

RalanrMay 12, 201722 votes

If squishy carries didn't die easy then there wouldn't really be a definition of squishy would there?

RewtMay 12, 20171 votes

they would be squishes against damage dealers. not fucking tanks.

RalanrMay 12, 201725 votes

That makes no sense. I'm only squishy if you build damage?

I'm squishy because I refuse to build defense. That should mean I suffer heavily for lack of defense.

Lajinn5May 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That makes no sense. I'm only squishy if you build damage?

I'm squishy because I refuse to build defense. That should mean I suffer heavily for lack of defense.

Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves

If only he couldn't hit 200+ armor with nothing but damage items

Chembaron YamadaMay 13, 20172 votes

They removed the MR from his E completely and now people want his armor removed as well?

Lajinn5May 13, 20172 votes

I have no problem with resistances. But 120+ is a tad ridiculous I'd say. But then again I just despise the idea of ADCarry champs having stat survivability built into their kit.

JebronMay 13, 20172 votes

Takes quite a while to stack it up if he's not dashing straight into you with it. There's plenty of reasons he's allowed to have 120 total armor on his E.

Graves also isn't an ADC, unless you want to call anything that has attack damage and can kill you an ADC, at which point I will bring up every fighter in the game.

Liac0sMay 13, 20171 votes

That makes no sense? You are telling me it makes perfect sense for a FULL TANK to take down a Champion who spent 12K on DAMAGE items? No wonder the game went so much downhill after S3.

Riot implemented the Assassins back in S1/S2 because Marksmen had a huge advantage in teamfights. Tanks had one job, which was to protect their Marksman. The game required skill and some minimal thought process, and the best Marksman was usually the winner.

But Riot saw that Marksmen still had a huge advantage in teamfights. Hence... Assassins. Assassins balanced the game (though thanks to the "pro" players, Zed was kept broken for a whole season), and skill became even more important.

Then S4 came. Bruisers became the no-brainer choice in each game. And Tanks started dominating. Now Mages have been sh**ted upon, thus people spam them as Supports in order to at least dominate Bot. Assassins are a 50-50 choice and not much useful against Bruisers.

Variks the LoyalMay 13, 20174 votes

If a Tank doesn't have damage, they lose in everything.

They can't clear jungle camps, so they lose to the jungle Fighters.

They can't compete top lane, unless it's another tank, because they'll get bullied out.

Tanks without damage get relegated to the Support role. That's fine for some tanks, like Braum, but it prevents them from taking any other role.

Liac0sMay 13, 20171 votes

That's the reason people use Off-Tank builds on Lee Sin, Xin, Pantheon, etc.... If you want to deal damage with a Tank, you HAVE to sacrifice tankiness. If you want to be a Full Tank, then you shouldn't be able to go Top or Jungle. That's why you CHOOSE a build. You define the role you want to play in.

Of course a Tank can't get a Full AD build, but nothing stops you from getting a Titanic Hydra or Trinity with Mundo. But when the game allows Mundo to deal damage without the need of AD/AP items, then of course Mundo players won't sacrifice Tank power.

Variks the LoyalMay 13, 20176 votes

Mundo isn't a Tank. Mundo is a Juggernaut. Mundo deals very high damage because he's a Juggernaut and doesn't have the utility that an actual tank offers.

Why shouldn't full tanks not be allowed in top or jungle? That's an extremely unhealthy way to design. It's a bad mentality to have. In reality, every class should have options for every role, which is true for most cases; we even have Ziggs or Mordekaiser bot now.

When I say Tank, I'm talking about the champions Riot actually considers Tanks - Sejuani, Zac, Maokai, Nautilus, Shen, Braum, Alistar, Leona, Poppy, Sion, Rammus, etc - not tanky Juggernauts like Mundo or Volibear or Olaf.

RalanrMay 13, 20173 votes

If offense outscales defense then base damage outscales base durability.

So yeah, it makes sense for a tank to kill someone who spent nothing on defense.

Liac0sMay 13, 20171 votes

That's because physical damage offense is broken and needs nerf. But that doesn't mean Tank Champs should have higher ratios and higher base damage on their spells. AD items must be nerfed and balanced.

RalanrMay 13, 20172 votes

Tank champions don't really have high rarios and their spell base damage is for early game. Squishy champions don't scale well defensively.

And nerfing AD wouldn't nerf tanks. Or are you one of those people who think Darius is a tank?

GGLineaRMay 12, 201711 votes

{quoted}

Shit like Chogath where he 1 shots your carries is fucking retarded.

I agree, as an ADC, you would have to be retarded to be in range of his ult. Especially since it's an execute.

DeusVultMay 13, 20172 votes

its not an execute, its just used as one since getting a kill with it gives you stats

an execute is something that does more damage the lower health your target it. So Lee Q, Veigar Ult, Garen Ult (but not Darius Ult, that is again a case where landing the kill with it rewards the player), but it deals flat damage)

macromiteMay 13, 20174 votes

an execute is an ability you save to kill your opponent with.

sometimes they do %missing health, sometimes they dont.

Champion SkinMay 13, 20173 votes

And on top of that even if Chogath is able to 1 shot someone with his abilities.... after that he is basically dead weight for like 10 seconds because of his long cooldowns

Dasdi96May 12, 201723 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are not strong early. They are strong mid game. Like 17min-30min. thats when they are best. After that they are weaker and before that they dont have items to become tanky.

Now Let me put this simply. A TANK SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO 1v1 A DAMAGE DEALER UNLESS ABSURDLY FED.

Tanks should NEVER. I MEAN NEVER. be able to win a 1v1 against a damage dealer. Tanks are team champions. Not 1v1 face roll champions. They should never have any sort of damage that allows them to win those fights. Its fucking retarded when the 0/0/0 tank with 200 farm can 1v1 the adc who is 1/0/0 with 200 farm. That is just wrong.

Tanks need to have some form of dueling power, otherwise they won't be able to top lane. If a tank with little damage tries to top lane, they will get zoned from cs if the enemy picks a bruiser or carry. Likewise they need to be able to clear jungle camps if they are jungle otherwise they will fall so far behind in exp that their mid game powerspike won't exist.

ErockandrollMay 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Tanks need to have some form of dueling power, otherwise they won't be able to top lane. If a tank with little damage tries to top lane, they will get zoned from cs if the enemy picks a bruiser or carry. Likewise they need to be able to clear jungle camps if they are jungle otherwise they will fall so far behind in exp that their mid game powerspike won't exist.

Personally, dueling power can be substituted with Wave clear. Tanks should lack damage against single targets, but with good levels of wave management, I can turn trades into my favor with the minion wave, without necessarily having better dueling power.

Tanks are buy and large ability reliant. Inherently their CC is tied to abilities, often in an AoE form paired with a little bit of damage. If built with a little bit of damage, I'm almost inclined to think of Tanks as Melee mages.

Also for that reason, I feel like the whole ADC dueling Tank argument, is some what Missleading. Because the Tanks are ability reliant, their damage will come in the form of Burst, not DPS. (If you want DPS, try a Juggernaut) Chances are, it's more on an edge between the tank getting a kill on a single rotation. (WTF he one shot me) Or not, and getting melted before your spells come back.